Planetside 2

[01101010]

We asked about whether there would be any small group instanced PvP, and while he said that Planetside 2 is focused only on world map open battles, he did say they thought about adding some strict, competitive, e-sports-style competition into the game. It would be a small map set up for platoon vs platoon, or 40 vs 40, with a set duration and objectives. He said it would be a neat sub-game to Planetside 2, but he stressed that it would never be the focus of the game.

Why even ask for shit like that? Seriously, if I want small instanced shit, I'll fire up Battlefield or even Halo. The very reason for playing PS or PS2 is for the big honking battles. Fuck anyone that wants sport PvP in this game right in the fucking earhole.

Whole-heartedly agree. However, I will reserve judgement especially if they make it so that those small instanced PvP is on a strict timer - say three times a week for only an hour at a time. I say this given the tower of doom epidemic that hit after release. It just better be LIMITED.

[eldaec]

We asked about whether there would be any small group instanced PvP, and while he said that Planetside 2 is focused only on world map open battles, he did say they thought about adding some strict, competitive, e-sports-style competition into the game. It would be a small map set up for platoon vs platoon, or 40 vs 40, with a set duration and objectives. He said it would be a neat sub-game to Planetside 2, but he stressed that it would never be the focus of the game.

Why even ask for shit like that? Seriously, if I want small instanced shit, I'll fire up Battlefield or even Halo. The very reason for playing PS or PS2 is for the big honking battles. Fuck anyone that wants sport PvP in this game right in the fucking earhole.

Whole-heartedly agree. However, I will reserve judgement especially if they make it so that those small instanced PvP is on a strict timer - say three times a week for only an hour at a time. I say this given the tower of doom epidemic that hit after release. It just better be LIMITED.

Once you give an inch on this shit the hyper organised ~elite pvp~ crowd will bitch and bitch until it takes so much development attention it becomes the focus of your game.

See also : Warhammer Online.

You can be Guild Wars, or you can be DAoC/Planetside. But unless you have a Blizzard or SWTOR budget, you only get to pick one.

[Malakili]

[
Once you give an inch on this shit the hyper organised ~elite pvp~ crowd will bitch and bitch until it takes so much development attention it becomes the focus of your game.

See also : Warhammer Online.

You can be Guild Wars, or you can be DAoC/Planetside. But unless you have a Blizzard or SWTOR budget, you only get to pick one.

I'm a huge supporter of eSports and competitive PvP, but I can't understand why its so important to some people to have these things in an MMO.  There are a bunch of exceptional eSports cames out there already, Starcraft 2, League of Legends, Counter Strike even Halo and Black Ops have regular tournaments.  Thats not even including the fighting game scene (SF4, etc).   My feeling is that these people generally want to be a big fish in a small pond.  If you are serious about competitive gaming, you shouldn't be depending on a game like Planetside to make your mark.

[01101010]

Once you give an inch on this shit the hyper organised ~elite pvp~ crowd will bitch and bitch until it takes so much development attention it becomes the focus of your game.

See also : Warhammer Online.

You can be Guild Wars, or you can be DAoC/Planetside. But unless you have a Blizzard or SWTOR budget, you only get to pick one.

Again, I agree... leave it completely out. But this is reality and SOE is still sorta in the business of keeping as many customers as possible. I am just throwing out there what I consider a breaking point for me... if it becomes anything more than what I suggested, I will sadly have to bin this game.

[Surlyboi]

[
Once you give an inch on this shit the hyper organised ~elite pvp~ crowd will bitch and bitch until it takes so much development attention it becomes the focus of your game.

See also : Warhammer Online.

You can be Guild Wars, or you can be DAoC/Planetside. But unless you have a Blizzard or SWTOR budget, you only get to pick one.

I'm a huge supporter of eSports and competitive PvP, but I can't understand why its so important to some people to have these things in an MMO.  There are a bunch of exceptional eSports cames out there already, Starcraft 2, League of Legends, Counter Strike even Halo and Black Ops have regular tournaments.  Thats not even including the fighting game scene (SF4, etc).   My feeling is that these people generally want to be a big fish in a small pond.  If you are serious about competitive gaming, you shouldn't be depending on a game like Planetside to make your mark.

Bingo. These are the types that couldn't cut it in those other venues, so they feel the need to make their mark on an MMO crowd that poses less of a challenge.

As for SOE trying to keep as many customers as possible; to hell with them. They're not adding an appreciable amount of revenue and they'll only stay until the shine wears off anyway.

[UnSub]

they'll only stay until the shine wears off anyway.

Are you talking about eSport PvPers, PvPers or MMO players in general? 

It's way too early to get excited about PS2. SOE is throwing out the right buzzwords, but all it takes is a few design decisions - say, you can only capture bases on a 7 day timer or air support dominates all - and it will end up angering a lot of people.

Also, this is going to be a F2P / freemium title (because a sub-based MMOFPS isn't going to cut it) so SOE is going to have to aim at a broad audience and figure how to keep them paying.

[Surlyboi]

they'll only stay until the shine wears off anyway.

Are you talking about eSport PvPers, PvPers or MMO players in general? 

eSport PvPers and PvPers in general that can't get the hang and are tired of having their asses handed to them. MMO players won't leave until something shinier comes along.

[Kail]

I can't understand why its so important to some people to have [competitive e-sports] in an MMO.

For the company making the game, it's free marketing and great PR.  Did some amazing work for Starcraft.  Getting people who don't play the game interested in it is hard, and people who are involved in the competitive scene drag other people in with them, from friends to spectators, in a way that casual gamers often don't.

For the players I suspect it's partly just the idea that "competitive = good" for any multiplayer game (i.e. that a lot of players who are invested in any kind of multiplayer game are going to be interested in a scenario where they get treated as "digital atheletes" rather than dorks with no life, regardless of if it's MMOs or what) and partly the broader applicability of skills (for all the badass masters at Unreal Tournament, they generally don't get much chance to show off, since there's nothing to do with their Unreal Tournament skillz except play a match of Unreal Tournament.  Someone who's a world champion WoW Arena player, though, can help friends out if they're getting ganked or defend Tol Barad or do a bunch of things where being an awesome arena player is handy but they're not in the actual arena).

[Goumindong]

Not to worried about eSports.

Eve seems to do just fine with the alliance tournament, and having a way to train and practice if you're into that doesn't seem like a bad deal.

It has possibly advantageous things for the rest of play:

As it is instanced it may also relieve some lag in large battles as people on "the edge" of a laggy fight might say "lets go to the instanced area instead of dealing with the lag". This will lower the lag in the largest of fights.

It allows intra-side competition in a more direct sense. I.E. who is the best outfit in Vanu? Which can serve to create communities that play off that aspect. And communities, especially interlaced ones that feed on each other, are what keep MMO's going well.

It can feed people into the main game. If people join for the e-sports what will they do when there isn't a good opponent but they still want to play? They will play the main game. This is especially true if they can use the eSports as a marketing gimmick.

It can even be a more structured environment for training and tactical proliferation. Whereas in the main game it would be more difficult to teach a tactic due to the time it takes to explain what is going on and the inability to stop/start the action at will. But if everyone is essentially "on the same side" the new players can be shown the ropes without having to worry about them dying and having to re-spawn. Tactics that are shown to be successful can be passed on to other squads in the same manner. Essentially instances allow training to operate more easily

But also may have some disadvantages

When people are getting stomped they tend to log off if they don't want to play. But this gives them another option, to play the instanced game. If we expect that people who are getting rolled are more likely to log off or go to some place where the fight is more even then giving them more avenues to do so is likely to accelerate the process so long as there exist people who don't enjoy getting rolled but would prefer to play the game than quit.

[eldaec]

When we say sport pvp, we mean fixed size organised teams facing off in self contained matches away from the 'real' world.

Think guild wars or warhammer scenarios.

Some people seem to think it means something else.

[Amaron]

When we say sport pvp, we mean fixed size organised teams facing off in self contained matches away from the 'real' world.

I think a real problem is a lot of people just want fixed sizes without the sports crap.   Once you get fixed teams though the MMO esport fuckers become a very vocal minority.   Developers then get sucked in by the fucking retarded pvp skillz = better pvp gear argument.    Once the rewards go in then everyone is forced to organize and the dev's suddenly think organized esport pvp is popular.    They focus more and more on it and everything steamrolls right to the crapper.

[Mrbloodworth]

Quite sure he was just floating the possibility, they floated it to in the old game, but it never materialized. However, small instanced areas for training has been a feature request for outfits for a long, LONG time.

Other than that, I agree, adding session based game play to Plantside is just not something that meshes well with its concept.

[01101010]

The only colors I better see in this game better be teal/purple, red/black, and blue/yellow - and there better not be any fucking color-coding on weapons or armor or I might kill a kid.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Makes zero sense to shoehorn competitive arenas into the game. The game is not designed for it, and you will be competiting for that crowd with games that are like SC2, Guild wars, DOTA style games, regular FPS games, etc. It also takes focus away from the the strengths of game (large scale, combined arms, open world combat), it's most unique characteristics and biggest selling points. It will split the playerbase, and take development focus away from these core areas.

Asides from making sure the FPS mechanics/physics are well executed (goes without saying), what would be the hook in justifying people making regular payments will be persistent/sandbox elements (and not leveling up obviously...). A sophisticated economy and stuff like the ability for clans to build their own fortresses will set it apart from normal FPS games, even killer larger scale combined arms ones like BF3.

Who cares about hardcore epeen clans? Let HoN and Quake Live keep them. If SOE nails down those dynamic sandbox elements and get a sophisticated economy and other player controlled strategic dynamics in play, they'll be drawing in large "community" clans instead. Clan of 12 hardcore esportsmen vs multigame clan of 200 that's been around 10 years. That's where the real butter is.

[Sky]

I might kill a kid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_pkzIiLlKY

[HaemishM]

Makes zero sense to shoehorn competitive arenas into the game. The game is not designed for it, and you will be competiting for that crowd with games that are like SC2, Guild wars, DOTA style games, regular FPS games, etc. It also takes focus away from the the strengths of game (large scale, combined arms, open world combat), it's most unique characteristics and biggest selling points. It will split the playerbase, and take development focus away from these core areas.

I am a big proponent of eSport PVP in MMO's... but not this one. I completely agree with Speedy on this. It is completely counter to the original game, and that's the market you need to be targeting. But this is SOE, so they think they can target all the low-hanging fruit of the Call of Duty's and Battlefield's. That ain't happening. If they are LUCKY, they will get a game that plays as well as the first (which pales in comparison to Battlefield but has things Battlefield can't do). Wedging instanced PVP will do the same thing to the game that the Cave expansion, it will split the players of what is likely to be a game struggling for players. That's a death knell to PVP games.

It is the definition of a compass pointing to magnetic wrong.

[Ingmar]

Specifically targeting the leftover remnants of the original Planetside market as their core would be a horrible mistake. I'm not saying anything one way or the other about the designs you guys are kicking around, but making that group their main target, forget the other guys? Failure. For better or for worse they really need to pull in a bigger crowd than the 4.16.NEVARFORGET people, especially since by now a good chunk of them will have moved on, some probably out of gaming entirely.

[Mrbloodworth]

Reading the various stories and testimonials, people left PS because it stagnated, not because it wasn't enjoyable. They clearly are not JUST targeting old users however, so many changes point to this like the addition of anything resembling classes, and the removal of sanctuaries and addition insta-spawn-on-leader.

Again though, there is zero instancing in PS2, its unlikely they will add any sort of sport PvP, i think he was just answering a question that was asked and was not ruling it out. As i said before, its not the first time it was talked about. Hopefully they know they can not compete in that area.

[Speedy Cerviche]

Specifically targeting the leftover remnants of the original Planetside market as their core would be a horrible mistake. I'm not saying anything one way or the other about the designs you guys are kicking around, but making that group their main target, forget the other guys? Failure. For better or for worse they really need to pull in a bigger crowd than the 4.16.NEVARFORGET people, especially since by now a good chunk of them will have moved on, some probably out of gaming entirely.

PS1 didn't fail cuz the potential market was too small, it failed cuz it SUCKED. I played PS1 beta, had some fun for a few weeks until the novelty of all the people and jumping out of galaxies wore off and when it boiled down what was left was a crummy game. So I didn't buy the game on release, I went back to BF1942 instead. BF1942 completely blew it out of the water in every FPS mechanical, design, balance, maps, style, and graphics. Plus 64 player maps had enough combined arms action to compete with it (tank columns, large dogfights, naval battles, etc.).

Why would I pay 50 + 15/month for an inferior game? Oh and one that couldn't even really be patched properly because they coded it poorly...Pretty sure I wasn't the only one who made that call considering BF1942 was one of the most successful PC FPS games of all time, and PS1 was a small time flop.

Plenty of people out there like massive FPS battles, and would pay for it especially if the MMO sandbox/persistance elements were done well too, but it's up to SOE to put out a high quality game this time if they want some real success. The meat and potato elements have to be competitive with other top line FPS' games, slip shod design and coding doesn't cut it even if everyone really wants to like the concept of a large scale open world FPS.  I'm glad they are taking another whack at it.

[UnSub]

Clan of 12 hardcore esportsmen vs multigame clan of 200 that's been around 10 years. That's where the real butter is.

How many decade-old clans of 200 are floating around, just waiting for PS2? Even if there are 100 of them, that's not enough to base a multi-million dollar title on. 1 000 of them? Assuming every single one buys PS2 and plays it forever, perhaps, but that's a highly risky strategy too.

There are a lot more 12 man hardcore eSports teams out there.

Like it or not, PS2 is in competition with the eSport / instanced FPSes. They can try to overcome that by making the most awesome massive FPS ever developed, but that relies on a mixture of immense skill and luck that has thus far eluded SOE for a long time.

If the only way to play PS2 is part of a 200-strong clan (especially with sub fees) then PS2 is going to be another woulda-shoulda-coulda title for SOE.

[Malakili]

If the only way to play PS2 is part of a 200-strong clan (especially with sub fees) then PS2 is going to be another woulda-shoulda-coulda title for SOE.

If the game requires you to be part of a 12 person team OR a 200 person clan its in trouble to be honest.  If you can log in as a solo player, join a battle, have fun and be useful, THEN its has a chance at a reasonable/big player base. 

[HaemishM]

If the only way to play PS2 is part of a 200-strong clan (especially with sub fees) then PS2 is going to be another woulda-shoulda-coulda title for SOE.

Let's be honest, this is SOE we're talking about. Based on their track record post-EQ1, I'd say the shotgun they are aiming is probably pointed directly in their own faces.

[sinij]

I'm a huge supporter of eSports and competitive PvP, but I can't understand why its so important to some people to have these things in an MMO. 

"eSports" is a standard. What most people are asking for is balanced and skill-driven PvP (good enough that you could have eSports) so they in turn enjoy it on their own sub-eSpots level.  Your average PvPer asking for eSports not because they plan to compete, but because they don't want to deal with gross mistakes in PvP design.

[Ratman_tf]

If the only way to play PS2 is part of a 200-strong clan (especially with sub fees) then PS2 is going to be another woulda-shoulda-coulda title for SOE.

If the game requires you to be part of a 12 person team OR a 200 person clan its in trouble to be honest.  If you can log in as a solo player, join a battle, have fun and be useful, THEN its has a chance at a reasonable/big player base. 

To my mind, that's it. The outfits are like the raiders in WoW, while the soloers make up a not-insignificant population.
The only thing that will distinguish PS2 is what distinguished PS1 from the current crop of team FPSes. Persistant battlefields that change over the course of an evening instead of a single match. Large scale battles with coordinated outfits and the soloers joining and leaving the battle at their discretion.

And I agree with the assesment that PS1 wasn't sticky because it got rote and predictable. I remember the posts complainging that every base fight was the same. Hopefully PS2 will have the capacity to shake things up more often.

[Mrbloodworth]

PlanetSide 2: What we know and what we hope.


I dislike the idea that combat speed is being sped up and TTK is being decreased. I feel Plantside had good lethality and combat speed that allowed for medics to be viable. The speed also made fire fights more feasible, instead of so fast you forget they happen.

Also, the article confirms that the map will be hexes.

[Sky]

Even if they shoot for the original design ideals of PS1, it's not like they're targeting PS1 vets. They're targeting the type of people who want to play that game. I'll go ahead and make an assumption that there are more shooter fans around now. Even if only a segment of modern shooter fans 'gets' the giant open world concept, it's a massive market.

The biggest mistake they can make given the TTK BW mentions is sniper headshots. One-shot one-kill one-boring-game.

[Malakili]

Even if they shoot for the original design ideals of PS1, it's not like they're targeting PS1 vets. They're targeting the type of people who want to play that game. I'll go ahead and make an assumption that there are more shooter fans around now. Even if only a segment of modern shooter fans 'gets' the giant open world concept, it's a massive market.

The biggest mistake they can make given the TTK BW mentions is sniper headshots. One-shot one-kill one-boring-game.

MMOs in general are just more widely accepted.  There are tons of shooter fans now who would've scoffed at an MMO pricing structure years ago when PS1 came out who have been gradually worn down over the years.  I think one of the biggest hurdles will be strong shooter mechanics though.  People aren't going to put up with clunky feeling gun play in exchange for the "massive" feeling.  Some of us might put up with it, but generally speaking I don't think people will.

[Mrbloodworth]

Even if they shoot for the original design ideals of PS1, it's not like they're targeting PS1 vets. They're targeting the type of people who want to play that game. I'll go ahead and make an assumption that there are more shooter fans around now. Even if only a segment of modern shooter fans 'gets' the giant open world concept, it's a massive market.

The biggest mistake they can make given the TTK BW mentions is sniper headshots. One-shot one-kill one-boring-game.

I personally do not believe "battlefield speed" combat leaves room for any sort of team based or tactical play. There will be no hallway firefights, or need for medics beyond reviving. I feel its a mistake and not the direction PS should go. Of course I feel that things should feel more punchy, but less than a second to kill, thats a mistake. Not sure why we need squads and outfits at that point. One of the design points of PS1 was combined arms, and survivable encounters. It it takes one or two hits with a pistol, thats gone in favor of those who Rambo around only able to fire that first shot with aim, instead of extended firefights.

What they mean by increased speed is up in the air however, I don't REALLY know what they mean by that.

[shiznitz]

Even if they shoot for the original design ideals of PS1, it's not like they're targeting PS1 vets. They're targeting the type of people who want to play that game. I'll go ahead and make an assumption that there are more shooter fans around now. Even if only a segment of modern shooter fans 'gets' the giant open world concept, it's a massive market.

The biggest mistake they can make given the TTK BW mentions is sniper headshots. One-shot one-kill one-boring-game.

Agreed.  One shot kills should be reserved for artillery vs light infantry only.  Man vs man should never be one shot from full health.

[Malakili]

Even if they shoot for the original design ideals of PS1, it's not like they're targeting PS1 vets. They're targeting the type of people who want to play that game. I'll go ahead and make an assumption that there are more shooter fans around now. Even if only a segment of modern shooter fans 'gets' the giant open world concept, it's a massive market.

The biggest mistake they can make given the TTK BW mentions is sniper headshots. One-shot one-kill one-boring-game.

I personally do not believe "battlefield speed" combat leaves room for any sort of team based or tactical play. There will be no hallway firefights, or need for medics beyond reviving. I feel its a mistake and not the direction PS should go. Of course I feel that things should feel more punchy, but less than a second to kill, thats a mistake. Not sure why we need squads and outfits at that point. One of the design points of PS1 was combined arms, and survivable encounters. It it takes one or two hits with a pistol, thats gone in favor of those who Rambo around only able to fire that first shot with aim, instead of extended firefights.

I think you can still have extended firefights if people die in very few hits, but then it becomes about positioning things like supply lines and such to allow you to reinforce/get people back into the firefight quickly after they die.  WW2 Online had tons of extended firefights over things like Army Bases, even though you can die extremely quickly.  This was due to the way mobile spawns worked though, and people could generally get back into the battle quickly.   Stuff like attrition mattered in that game though, so I don't know how well it would work in something like PS.

I also think that quicker paced combat with shorter lives is goign to attract a bigger audience, so if they can manage to do it while keeping with the over all combined arms/pitched battle feel, I think that is a best case scenario from their point of view.  That doesn't mean it should be a CoD style twitch shooter, but I think players will feel upset if they feel like they made a good play and weren't able to kill someone, so its a fine line.

[shiznitz]

I am not sure about the idea of spawning directly on your squad.  In PS1, battles would be endless unless one side could control spawn points.  That is how infantry fights were won.  From a gameplay standpoint, I would rather spawn away from the battle (because we didn't have any spawnpoints) quickly rather than wait an artificial 1-2 minutes to respawn on my squad.   Many times, my squad would use the faraway spawn point to initiate a new counter offensive or seek a different target away from the main firefight.

[Mrbloodworth]

Spawn on leader is for the zerg. Clearly. I'm torn about it personally.

EDIT:

Sanctuary and HART are both being removed. Players will be able to re-spawn directly onto their squads via drop-pods. Players will also be able to join open squads in their area without the need to spam chat channels to find a squad.

Perhaps it wont be like those other games then. That's better.

[01101010]

Spawn on leader is for the zerg. Clearly. I'm torn about it personally.

EDIT:

Sanctuary and HART are both being removed. Players will be able to re-spawn directly onto their squads via drop-pods. Players will also be able to join open squads in their area without the need to spam chat channels to find a squad.

Perhaps it wont be like those other games then. That's better.

Strike 1 for me. Spawning directly in battle without a facility to spawn from is a huge change. If effectively will render towers and AMS's useless. Use of these were essential for the large open battles and controlling said battles by eliminating spawn points and pushing factions back from an offensive. I can not see anything redeeming about spawning directly within your squad... other than because it is how other games work. This just screams to me that they are narrowing their focus of battles - if anything, PS was more about the chess match of taking bases to lock a continent. Meh... I should just stop reading this nonsense till the game is out because this is just sounding more and more like one big god damn disappointment. . . . then again, SOE 

[Mrbloodworth]

It did say drop pods, thats at least very different then most shooters where it is instant. Also, I know this will not work indoors.

[Sky]

Open squads is a good idea, though. Really liked that in WAR and Rift.