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f13.net General Forums => Diablo 3 => Topic started by: Xanthippe on June 19, 2012, 08:11:17 AM



Title: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on June 19, 2012, 08:11:17 AM
Bashiok had this to tweet re: Kripparian's HC Inferno Diablo completion.

"People think that was the first HC Inferno clear? Weird. Webcams r 2 legit 2 quit. hay HAY" (https://twitter.com/Bashiok/status/215008237513224192)


Professional.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Segoris on June 19, 2012, 08:51:23 AM
An employee of a company has a personal life and makes a sarcastic comment about something completely non-important, news at 11.

The only thing he did wrong her was get 2 Legit 2 Quit in my head, what a jerk. In other early 90's related news - Arsenio Hall will have a talk show again coming in Fall of 2013


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on June 19, 2012, 08:53:26 AM
His Twitter feed is not personal, but professional. Unless his real name is Bashiok.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 19, 2012, 08:57:09 AM
He's been slowly sliding into madness over the last two years. I can't wait for the moment when he finally cracks on the forums and ragequits. It'll be really funny.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: calapine on June 19, 2012, 09:00:15 AM
I think men shouldn't be allowed to do community relations. They just don't have what it takes to survive in such a rugged environment.  :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Segoris on June 19, 2012, 09:14:36 AM
His Twitter feed is not personal, but professional. Unless his real name is Bashiok.

Private or personal account, I don't think it matters (especially at 2am or whatever). He wasn't being rude, simply sarcastic with a reference that dates before the majority of the players catassing to give two shits about the player with the accomplishment in question. Could he have still said congrats? Sure, that's about the only thing missing in Bash's message imo.

Personally, I like community relations persons that don't stick to form letters and engage with the playerbase and can leave the automated responses/comments out of it. I don't think he needs to apologize like some number of crybabies on the official forums are asking for, and don't think he should change that part of his way of doing things.

I think men shouldn't be allowed to do community relations. They just don't have what it takes to survive in such a rugged environment.  :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious:

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Azuredream on June 19, 2012, 10:59:16 AM
I would totally agree with you about the 'professional' thing except that his job involves reading Blizzard forums. Give the poor guy a break.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 19, 2012, 11:04:32 AM
They've always gone for a more goofy/conversational tone in their forum relations stuff, it seems to work just fine.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: kildorn on June 19, 2012, 11:06:19 AM
There's a level of professionalism I expect, but being randomly snarky seems fine for gaming PR. Their old web dev dude was way the fuck over the line, but I'm more impressed that the current PR folks haven't just broken down and banned everyone on the forums in a fit of rage yet.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: schild on June 19, 2012, 11:08:27 AM
Bashiok has always been the height of mediocre and more often idiotic than otherwise. But the "2 legit" AND webcam bits go back to Diablo 1.

In this case, everyone that has posted in this thread thus far about it being unreasonable is just wrong. This is a rare case where was he posted was actually far from the worst thing he could've said and on the right side of things to say.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rokal on June 19, 2012, 11:15:01 AM
He's been slowly sliding into madness over the last two years. I can't wait for the moment when he finally cracks on the forums and ragequits. It'll be really funny.

He is destined to be the next Tseric, but I don't really have a problem with him. I prefer him to most CMs who usually just seem to repeat "thank you for the feedback, we're listening" ad infinitum.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: calapine on June 19, 2012, 11:24:17 AM
He is destined to be the next Tseric, but I don't really have a problem with him. I prefer him to most CMs who usually just seem to repeat "thank you for the feedback, we're listening" ad infinitum.

Oh, that douchbag! I stopped following blizz forums after quitting wow...do you know what happend to him?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: IainC on June 19, 2012, 11:27:08 AM
He melted down in a series of increasingly rambly self-hating posts (http://www.wowwiki.com/Tseric) and was fired.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: calapine on June 19, 2012, 11:42:34 AM
He melted down in a series of increasingly rambly self-hating posts (http://www.wowwiki.com/Tseric) and was fired.

Oh, well. I take back the douchebag but he wasn't a very good CM. He had a gift - while not technically being rude - to rub people the wrong way. And yes, customers are shitbags. Worked in a callcenter so it's not like I can't related to being yelled at(which makes it a lot more personal) or insulted yet having to stay calm and polite. One of the reasons I quit.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Segoris on June 19, 2012, 11:54:37 AM
Too rugged of an environment for you, was it?  :why_so_serious:

The Tseric ramblings were awesome imo, it was funny to watch people's reactions at times.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Selby on June 19, 2012, 09:37:22 PM
But the "2 legit" AND webcam bits go back to Diablo 1.
Yeah, my first thought when I read that was "damn, that sounds like a reference to Diablo 1 back around '98 or so..."


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: amiable on June 20, 2012, 05:16:29 AM
I think bashiok just congratulated Kripp and Krippi on the first HC inferno diablo kill. He menitoned that he read the spreadsheet worng and thought someone else had the world first.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Outlawedprod on June 20, 2012, 05:38:59 AM
He is destined to be the next Tseric
Oh, that douchbag! I stopped following blizz forums after quitting wow...do you know what happend to him?

(http://content.ytmnd.com/content/6/f/5/6f5834e53f984342994695eea1ea4a65.jpg)


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Nonentity on June 20, 2012, 04:01:08 PM
I worked with Tseric back when I was a GM on WoW. He was a GM with me, and I'd talk to him briefly outside on cigarette breaks. Dude was nice, but always looked totally and completely strung out.

So, I dunno. I'm not completely surprised that happened.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on June 21, 2012, 07:49:20 AM
This is merely one of many unprofessional things he's said. When most of what one posts, as a representative of a company, is sarcastic, I wonder why the hell the guy doesn't go find a new job.

Lylirra, on the other hand, is top rate.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Tebonas on June 21, 2012, 07:54:16 AM
Its Wow players that whine on the official forum, if it was the same entitled assholes as in the Everquest class forums, I really can't fault him all that much for being sarcastic.

Of course it was unprofessional, but he said not a wrong word in this nervous breakdown of his.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Outlawedprod on June 21, 2012, 01:06:28 PM
This is how you show your customers you care about them.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5889089807


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Miasma on June 21, 2012, 01:43:46 PM
He made some post about the attack speed nerf and said "other stats could have been nerfed too (aren't you thankful?)" so now "Aren't you thankful?" is being reposted everywhere like a mini meme.

Also, it seems blizzard just had too many tickets and problems so they have arbitrarily closed everything that they haven't gotten around to answering and telling people that if they still have a problem to... open another ticket.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Hutch on June 21, 2012, 01:56:38 PM
This is how you show your customers you care about them.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5889089807

Speaking of that, does anyone know how to get ahold of a Guest Pass nowadays?
Apparently, that is still the only way to get a Starter Edition going. That is, without paying for the game first.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: MuffinMan on June 21, 2012, 02:01:05 PM
You have to send in three forms of ID and a utility bill in your name to get a Guest Pass.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: 01101010 on June 21, 2012, 02:07:57 PM
This is how you show your customers you care about them.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5889089807

Speaking of that, does anyone know how to get ahold of a Guest Pass nowadays?
Apparently, that is still the only way to get a Starter Edition going. That is, without paying for the game first.


Or pay $60 to buy the digital copy it seems.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xuri on June 21, 2012, 04:15:27 PM
This is how you show your customers you care about them.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5889089807
What the...? That's just... :facepalm:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Outlawedprod on June 22, 2012, 02:08:13 PM
http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/227617-act-3-4-loot-bugged-blizzard-respond-please/

http://www.diablofans.com/blizz-tracker/topic/227854-blizzard-shut-off-the-servers/


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on June 22, 2012, 02:15:01 PM
Now stickied in the General Forum, entitled Real-Life Threats by Lylirra:

Quote
This is a reminder that we take threats made against other players, against our employees, and of self-harm extremely seriously.

We realize that there can be stressful and trying moments in the game or when interacting with others, but there is no acceptable time to go beyond the boundaries of the game and threaten others with real-life harm.

If someone is found to be making a real-life threat, we will report it to the authorities, which could result in real repercussions. To report threatening in-game chat, use the right-click Report > Real-Life Threat option, or for forum posts, use the thumbs-down button and choose "Real-Life Threats."
                               


The Blizzard forums have always been a little crazy but now they're  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Feverdream on June 23, 2012, 06:52:35 AM
Gaming forums - you all know this - can be enough to send even the most grounded CMs or players right over the freaking edge of sanity.

The Diablo 3 forums tipped over awhile ago.  I'm not saying there aren't reasons for people to be frustrated and pissed.  Just saying that breathing the atmosphere in the forums requires some sort of protective gear =P

From the comment that inspired the first post here to the CM comments linked later in the thread, I'm not seeing anything worth complaining about, and definitely not seeing anything "unprofessional" (though I'd argue that even here it looks like people have varying ideas of what "professional" looks like).

I just know I enjoy forums most when the CMs have the leeway to be human - including use of sarcasm - and aren't required to spout only corporate platitudes.  That may mean that occasionally a CM will post something that bothers more sensitive souls, but it's worth it to keep the forums more interesting and hopefully to help players and CMs develop somewhat more genuine connections.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on June 23, 2012, 07:27:21 AM
The problem with CMs being human and using sarcasm is that it's akin to using lighter fluid to put out a fire. It  not only does nothing to advance civilized behavior on the forums, it just encourages even worse behavior.

If a CM feels it necessary to be snarky and sarcastic in their position as CM, they need to find a new profession; they're burned out. Completely understandable, but snark and sarcasm do nothing positive for the forums, and particularly not from CMs.

Forums can be useful or they can be toxic puddles of hostile goo. It seems to me that Blizzard's forums used to be quite a bit more useful than toxic (back when WoW launched); I could be misremembering, but it seems to me they used a much heavier hand in deleting posts.

Since ActiviBlizzard, it's gotten magnitudes worse.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on June 23, 2012, 10:05:52 AM
Sarcasm is fine in general conversation.  When people are upset (rightly or not), it does fuel the flames as Xan suggests.  When they're erupting, it's time to take a purely serious tone.

Even I tone it down if I realize things are tense.  (Unless I'm trying to provoke a reaction, but then I know I'm being bitchy and accept the consequences.)


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 23, 2012, 10:21:25 AM
You get bitchy?  :awesome_for_real:

But yeah, they need to come to terms with the fact that people want their fun back. The next patch needs to have some iteration of barrel hunting back in it at the minimum.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Amaron on June 23, 2012, 02:41:40 PM
Gaming forums - you all know this - can be enough to send even the most grounded CMs or players right over the freaking edge of sanity.

I think it's a bit more than that in this case.  Blizzard is used to this from some pretty unpopular patches.  This time around it's like Baishok is more upset by the actual complaints than the amount of vitriol present.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Fordel on June 24, 2012, 12:18:31 AM
The problem with CMs being human and using sarcasm is that it's akin to using lighter fluid to put out a fire. It  not only does nothing to advance civilized behavior on the forums, it just encourages even worse behavior.

If a CM feels it necessary to be snarky and sarcastic in their position as CM, they need to find a new profession; they're burned out. Completely understandable, but snark and sarcasm do nothing positive for the forums, and particularly not from CMs.

Forums can be useful or they can be toxic puddles of hostile goo. It seems to me that Blizzard's forums used to be quite a bit more useful than toxic (back when WoW launched); I could be misremembering, but it seems to me they used a much heavier hand in deleting posts.

Since ActiviBlizzard, it's gotten magnitudes worse.


The forums are what they've always been, no better, no worse. Useful threads and topics in the obscure and less trafficked sub forums.

Useless bitching and 'trolling' everywhere else. Triple the amount of crap in any forum where Blues show up regularly.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on June 24, 2012, 11:41:55 AM
A few years ago, Kotick said, "The goal that I had in bringing a lot of the packaged goods folks into Activision about 10 years ago was to take all the fun out of making video games."

Not content with that, now they're taking the fun out of playing the games, too.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 24, 2012, 12:38:44 PM
I understand Kotick's goal of making the game business an actual business. Too many projects go haywire in the game development process because people don't actually treat it as work.

I agree with you that they can't make the GAMES into work. That's where I think the disconnect happens. I don't want the people at Activision to be having fun at their job when the end result is shitty.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 24, 2012, 12:46:37 PM
I really don't think you do understand.

When the creative process isn't fun, the end result isn't either.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 24, 2012, 12:53:44 PM
I really don't think you do understand.

When the creative process isn't fun, the end result isn't either.

Point out to me where Blizzard has done anything "creative" in the last decade and I'd agree with you. As it stands, Blizzard has been in the business of producing sequels and polished updates to other people's ideas since 1998.

In fact, I think Titan is really the first creative thing they've attempted since Starcraft in terms of IP.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Miasma on June 24, 2012, 02:56:37 PM
Blizzard doesn't do anything creative but they used to do fun.  They would look at other games, strip out the suck, emphasize the fun and boom, awesome best selling game.  They were the kings of perfecting other peoples' ideas but now they just tread water in a shallowing pool of their own success.

Also, if anyone gets credit for turning "shallow" into a verb I had better get God damn credit.  Or is that a gerund, someone with a mostly worthless English major figure it out.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: ezrast on June 24, 2012, 06:48:41 PM
It's a present participle. Gerunds act like nouns, not adjectives.

(I'm a math major. An English major would just tell you if it was pretty or not)


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 24, 2012, 06:51:44 PM
That's sort of the issue for why they are struggling. They don't do anything creative and haven't for a long time. Look around the video game industry and see that people are trying to do the same thing as Blizzard, when it was Blizzard that built the formula of doing what other people were doing only better. Now, with no innovation on any level, Blizzard has nobody to copy but itself.

In fact, I think the only successful thing Blizzard could copy right now would be Minecraft or an upgraded Blizz-version of Dwarf Fortress. I don't think they've dabbled in the TBS series, or maybe they could unfuck the Total War stuff. Or perhaps they'd like to have a try at Mount and Blade done bigtime.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 24, 2012, 07:49:09 PM
That's sort of the issue for why they are struggling. They don't do anything creative and haven't for a long time. Look around the video game industry and see that people are trying to do the same thing as Blizzard, when it was Blizzard that built the formula of doing what other people were doing only better. Now, with no innovation on any level, Blizzard has nobody to copy but itself.

In fact, I think the only successful thing Blizzard could copy right now would be Minecraft or an upgraded Blizz-version of Dwarf Fortress. I don't think they've dabbled in the TBS series, or maybe they could unfuck the Total War stuff. Or perhaps they'd like to have a try at Mount and Blade done bigtime.

Blizzard basically only got this reputation with WoW, lets not act like they did nothing.  Warcraft 3 was hugely innovative in the RTS genre, for example.  Starcraft 2 is arguably the best RTS ever made.  Diablo 3 is, despite the crying around here, probably going to be considered the best ARPG available over the next decade.  Diablo 2 had years of refining before it became the game people are remembering so fondly, Diablo 3 will get there, and it is already plenty fun.

As Diablo 3 - I'm about 100% sure if they tried to "innovate" with it, you'd all be way more upset that the game isn't really "Diablo" than you are with Inferno loot tables that need to be ironed out.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Llyse on June 24, 2012, 08:17:01 PM

Blizzard basically only got this reputation with WoW, lets not act like they did nothing.  Warcraft 3 was hugely innovative in the RTS genre, for example.  Starcraft 2 is arguably the best RTS ever made.  Diablo 3 is, despite the crying around here, probably going to be considered the best ARPG available over the next decade.  Diablo 2 had years of refining before it became the game people are remembering so fondly, Diablo 3 will get there, and it is already plenty fun.

As Diablo 3 - I'm about 100% sure if they tried to "innovate" with it, you'd all be way more upset that the game isn't really "Diablo" than you are with Inferno loot tables that need to be ironed out.

How was War3 innovative? The customised mapmaker for Starcraft1/War3 was amazing but I rate Starcraft:Broodwar much higher than Starcraft2 considering it's impact on the RTS scene


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 24, 2012, 08:36:46 PM
<innovation from Blizzard>

I disagree that those sequel games truly "innovated" much of anything. What I'm referring to is a game that either creates a new IP that's successful (Mass Effect would be an example), or it revolutionizes the genre/creates the genre.

Examples of innovative games to me would be the first Starcraft, the first Warcraft (for both reasons), UO, Mario 64, Portal, Minecraft, The Sims, etc.

Still, at it's core we're arguing a word. At the very least we can agree that Blizzard has not produced an original IP since 1998 with Starcraft. That's a problem for any gaming company that wants to remain relevant.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 24, 2012, 08:38:13 PM
The word you used that I would pick out to argue about is "struggling."  :-P


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 24, 2012, 08:40:52 PM
The word you used that I would pick out to argue about is "struggling."  :-P

I would say plateaued is probably much more apt, upon further reflection.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 24, 2012, 08:46:45 PM

How was War3 innovative? The customised mapmaker for Starcraft1/War3 was amazing but I rate Starcraft:Broodwar much higher than Starcraft2 considering it's impact on the RTS scene

Warcraft 3's RPG/Hero mechanics were pretty widely heralded as innovative and awesome if I recall correctly. Of course SC2 isn't innovative, but my point is that it didn't need to be.  Just throwing in new shit for the sake of new shit doesn't make good games.




Still, at it's core we're arguing a word. At the very least we can agree that Blizzard has not produced an original IP since 1998 with Starcraft. That's a problem for any gaming company that wants to remain relevant.

Ignoring the other part, since yes, I think we were basically talking about different things, I don't know that this is actually a problem.  I'll take SC10 and Diablo10 if they are great games.  


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: koro on June 24, 2012, 08:54:22 PM
Warlords Battlecry did the RPG/hero unit stuff two years before WC3 did, by the by.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Tebonas on June 24, 2012, 10:43:45 PM
Diablo 3 is, despite the crying around here, probably going to be considered the best ARPG available over the next decade. 

When you realize how fast it got boring, I strongly doubt that. Depending on mode of measurement, I'm even willing to bet money it won't.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on June 25, 2012, 02:19:30 AM
Total Annihilation > Warcraft 3
WC3 was good, don't get me wrong, but I preferred SC: Brood War to it.

D2 > D3
and I have a feeling Torchlight 2 is going to be the better game than D3 - because they didn't forget the fun factor (and for no other reason).


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 25, 2012, 02:56:12 AM
TA didn't really have the longevity of WC3.

And that's about as involved as I want to be with this argument, which I find mental.  I'm not even going to touch 'Diablo 3 is awesum'.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 25, 2012, 03:46:48 AM


D2 > D3
and I have a feeling Torchlight 2 is going to be the better game than D3 - because they didn't forget the fun factor (and for no other reason).

My point is that D2 after years of patching is better than D3. (and arguably it isn't, how many of you have ACTUALLY played through D2 recently?)  I don't see any reason to expect that D3 won't hit its stride later as well. 


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 25, 2012, 04:00:42 AM
I've played through it recently, since the wife went back to it in disgust.

Hey, true story ;  it's still better than d3.

Fucking Shocking.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on June 25, 2012, 07:47:10 AM
Played D2 tonight - shitty graphics, played it to death more times than I can think since release.


... still enjoyed it more tonight than D3.

If only D2 was the exact clone of D2 but with better graphics... I'd play that :)


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on June 25, 2012, 08:20:09 AM
Played D2 tonight - shitty graphics, played it to death more times than I can think since release.


... still enjoyed it more tonight than D3.

If only D23 was the exact clone of D2 but with better graphics... I'd play that :)

I suspect that at least half the people complaining about D3 would be quite happy if this were the case.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on June 25, 2012, 10:32:18 AM
I suspect more than that.  I'd have probably bought it myself were it just an updated D2.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on June 25, 2012, 10:53:35 AM
Played D2 tonight - shitty graphics, played it to death more times than I can think since release.


... still enjoyed it more tonight than D3.

If only D2 was the exact clone of D2 but with better graphics... I'd play that :)
Pretty much this. Every change they made in D3 that deviates from D2 has been for the worse, graphics aside.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Segoris on June 25, 2012, 11:50:57 AM
Pretty much this. Every change they made in D3 that deviates from D2 has been for the worse, graphics aside.

That is pretty arguable, but it would be interesting to see people's thoughts on what changes are actually improvements (since I'd guess that would be the much shorter list but possibly large enough to be worthy of its own thread along with the recent posts of people comparing D2 and D3), I know there are some things that I enjoy more in D3
-No scrolls. Home/id scrolls did nothing but annoy me by taking up inventory space and having a quantity/cost without being a high enough cost to be considered a real money sink. Some sort of hybrid between the home scroll of D2 and home teleport spell of d3 would have been welcomed though, and ID can fuck off entirely imo in both D2 and D3 in their respective implementations
-Shared bank space is nice, even if it is limited
-I like having more hotkeys. I'd prefer some sort of a hybrid between more hotkeys and D2's F-key binding system but without going too deep into this I'll leave it at that
-I like the idea of crafting but I just think it was poorly implemented, even with reduced costs there's very few items worth crafting at all
-I'm torn on removable gems. I think the only thing removing gems is missing is some sort of penalty (such as removing a gem should downgrade that gem and have higher tier gems giving you two of the lesser tier gems) besides some small gold fee
-Multiplayer/friends list is so damn smooth. Granted that is less of a gameplay design change and more of a social/ui change I think most can agree that this social aspect and how smooth it was still had a large effect on many people's enjoyment of the game and should be considered as a positive change even in the gameplay changes discussion


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: statisticalfool on June 25, 2012, 11:58:27 AM
Skills. Nephalem Valor.

I think both are kind of flawed in execution a bit. Too many must have skills for all but the WD. But the overall concept, and lack of respeccing cost? Good.

Similarly, NV should be a force for good. It's surrounded by a lot of bad systems at the moment.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on June 25, 2012, 01:40:33 PM
I realize I'm in the minority, but I really don't like the skill system; D2's with respecs would have been better for me. The multiplayer is better, and the removal of scrolls is nice I guess (but not a huge change) although I do like the unwrapping aspect of identifying an item. The crafting would be interesting if it either
a) It was free (only took mats broken down from other items), or
b) It allowed some stat choice on the items instead of strictly random for increasing fees.

I never made it to Inferno but NV does sound nice; it's a shame it wasn't implemented into the whole game.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: SurfD on June 25, 2012, 02:13:49 PM
NV kicks in at 60, so I suppose if you dont want to do Inferno, you can do level 60 runs of act 4 Hell with NV stacks to farm loot.  But yeah, having some lesser buff that worked along the same lines at lower levels would be nice.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Segoris on June 25, 2012, 02:28:53 PM
I was always a fan of NV being "unlocked" for alts with limited stacks per 10 levels (I think I saw that idea here and have been a fan of it since).

As for crafting, making it free I can't really agree with since it is basically D3's version of gambling and seems like it was intended to be the main money sink which failed horribly with awful itemization and attached fees being way too high. I'm all for further reduced costs, but not free. I do agree with some stat choice on crafted gear. I would really like being able to salvage items but keep a single stat from the item that was salvaged (not the amount but the actual stat so when crafting with that material it gives that stat but the amount is randomized). So if you craft a 6-affix gloves and use a +crit dmg essence then the gloves would be guranteed to have +crit dmg as either one of the six affixes or it would act as a 7th affix.

For the skill system vs D2's with respecs, I don't mind the speccing aspect of their system but I can't stand the lack of hotkeys. Only having lmb/rmb and some f-key bindings feels clunky for a UI now. Though I think D3's ability system feels shittier than intended partly due to ~90% of abilities/runes are garbage, or at least they aren't competetive.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on June 25, 2012, 04:33:14 PM
So I got so frustrated with Diablo 3 that I went back and reinstalled Titan Quest -- and probably much like going back to play D2, it was an instructive experience.

As such, some things I think D3 did right, or at least moved in the right direction:

* Graphics, interface, 'feel' of play, etc.
* A lot of the actual skills are pretty cool, mechanically, and there are a lot of them. Runes are interesting.
* Nephalem Valor, as mentioned. I kind of wish it was the only way to get better MF, but this is Diablo after all.
* I think their move to emphasize Rares is to some degree a good idea.
* I think giving most Set and Legendary items 2-3 completely randomized affixes is part of that same good idea.
* Health globes > potion-spamming. Health globes are IMO a genuinely great idea.
* Edit: oh and treasure goblins, of course.

The two major issues are just crappy depth of itemization -- the lack of unique affixes and suffixes in general, everything being focused around some very obvious stats, the terrible decision to try and have the item-game 'start' at 60 -- and a very superficial-feeling skill system. Like, many of the skills are fun to use and runes are neat, but the lack of a 'skill point equivalent' makes it feel like there's no way to 'commit' a build, or take any sort of risk, or really push a synergy. Also because items are so boring there's really very little unexpected synergy to discover/exploit, and I feel like most of the skills don't interact nearly enough. Lack of emphasis on damage types, etc.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Job601 on June 25, 2012, 05:50:26 PM

The two major issues are just crappy depth of itemization -- the lack of unique affixes and suffixes in general, everything being focused around some very obvious stats, the terrible decision to try and have the item-game 'start' at 60 -- and a very superficial-feeling skill system. Like, many of the skills are fun to use and runes are neat, but the lack of a 'skill point equivalent' makes it feel like there's no way to 'commit' a build, or take any sort of risk, or really push a synergy. Also because items are so boring there's really very little unexpected synergy to discover/exploit, and I feel like most of the skills don't interact nearly enough. Lack of emphasis on damage types, etc.



I don't agree with all of this, but the damage type thing is interesting.  You can see a shell of a system there that was intended to encourage skill diversity by requiring players to have multiple damage types -- lots of skills have runes that change the damage type for no apparent reason, some classes are "better" at some damage types than others, etc..  They must have designed the skills and the runes assuming there would be mobs immune to at least one element and then decided not to pull the trigger.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Llyse on June 25, 2012, 06:03:35 PM
Actually as annoying as mobs were in D2, some unique/champions were just completely immune to types it forced you to change your skills.

That is way preferable to crappy random prefixes that make a mob just impossible.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 25, 2012, 07:34:15 PM
Horde and arcane should not be allowed.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on June 25, 2012, 10:21:49 PM
I was always a fan of NV being "unlocked" for alts with limited stacks per 10 levels (I think I saw that idea here and have been a fan of it since).

As for crafting, making it free I can't really agree with since it is basically D3's version of gambling and seems like it was intended to be the main money sink which failed horribly with awful itemization and attached fees being way too high. I'm all for further reduced costs, but not free. I do agree with some stat choice on crafted gear. I would really like being able to salvage items but keep a single stat from the item that was salvaged (not the amount but the actual stat so when crafting with that material it gives that stat but the amount is randomized). So if you craft a 6-affix gloves and use a +crit dmg essence then the gloves would be guranteed to have +crit dmg as either one of the six affixes or it would act as a 7th affix.

For the skill system vs D2's with respecs, I don't mind the speccing aspect of their system but I can't stand the lack of hotkeys. Only having lmb/rmb and some f-key bindings feels clunky for a UI now. Though I think D3's ability system feels shittier than intended partly due to ~90% of abilities/runes are garbage, or at least they aren't competetive.
I forgot about the lack of hotkeys; that is an improvement in D3. By skill system I meant a speccing system, trees, etc. In D3 I don't have any identity for my character beyond "I'm a wizard" while in D2 I was "a whirlwind pike-barb" or "a lightning sorc" or "a spear/golem necro".

Regarding crafting, even if you made it "free" there is still a cost in the form of the money lost by not vendoring or AHing the items you salvage. Just ratchet up the amount of materials it takes if you want to make it "cost" more, but having to spend money and materials to craft things just rubs me the wrong way.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 26, 2012, 02:14:17 AM
Can I ask what crack people are smoking about hotkeys ?

I had tons in D2, certainly more than I have in D3.  Am I missing something ?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 26, 2012, 04:12:59 AM
Can I ask what crack people are smoking about hotkeys ?

I had tons in D2, certainly more than I have in D3.  Am I missing something ?


I don't think D2 had hotkey in sense that pressing them didn't cast the skill, you hit the buttons to assign the skills to your mouse buttons on the fly, and then clicked to cast.  That being said, I think the D2 system was fine and I don't think Diablo 3 is an improvement.  I guess most people are just used to that style casting in RPGs now and that is probably why they did it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 26, 2012, 04:19:43 AM
Ah, I see.

I like having more buttons I can quickly find than less buttons that aren't quickly swappable.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on June 26, 2012, 06:46:48 AM
Played D2 tonight - shitty graphics, played it to death more times than I can think since release.


... still enjoyed it more tonight than D3.

If only D2 was the exact clone of D2 but with better graphics... I'd play that :)
Pretty much this. Every change they made in D3 that deviates from D2 has been for the worse, graphics aside.

Reading and watching interviews with Jay Wilson is painful. I can't remember how many times he's stated "D2 had this system, but players didn't like that, so we did this" It's almost like they took nearly everything about D2 and changed it, when many of the systems in place were fine as is and at most needed some tweaking. Then he stated that nobody leveled to 99 because it was pointless, I guess forgetting that every level gave you stat points and a skill point.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Miasma on June 26, 2012, 07:37:02 AM
I don't know about level 99 but I wouldn't mind some sort of very difficult to obtain but completely optional advancement system.  That way if I clear an act and don't get a single good drop (most of the time) I could at least say I made 1% progress towards that nice to have but optional goal.

I would like an AA point which made it so that I didn't have to refresh my monk's mantra every three minutes.  It's just annoying and I can't think of a useful purpose for making me do that.  It just makes me constantly check to see if my mantra is about to expire.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Segoris on June 26, 2012, 07:43:34 AM
I forgot about the lack of hotkeys; that is an improvement in D3. By skill system I meant a speccing system, trees, etc. In D3 I don't have any identity for my character beyond "I'm a wizard" while in D2 I was "a whirlwind pike-barb" or "a lightning sorc" or "a spear/golem necro".

Regarding crafting, even if you made it "free" there is still a cost in the form of the money lost by not vendoring or AHing the items you salvage. Just ratchet up the amount of materials it takes if you want to make it "cost" more, but having to spend money and materials to craft things just rubs me the wrong way.

I can definitely agree there is a lack of identiy, but I also think that is partly due to most skills/runes being useless in D3. Improving skills wouldn't solve the problem, but it would help quite a bit imo if every class didn't have the same 4 base skills and same playstyle as other players within that class. It's why I like the game up through Hell, but once you hit Inferno the classes are mostly pigeon-holed (not entirely, but there certainly aren't many competitive abilities).

I don't think there is fun to be found in needing to increase the number of items that need to be destroyed just to craft one single item, which is why I think it comes back around to needing that gold fee. Sure the vendor value is lost as well, which is why I think the current amounts should be lowered slightly, but not free so that gold has a way to be removed from play besides repair fees (which will be adjusted soon, or almost ignored with the indestructible stat).


For IW & Mala:

Those reasons are why I would have loved some sort of hybrid system between D2 and D3. Something along the lines of pressing F1 brings up a mini-window like it did in D2, only updated with the current ability selection and their groupings. Example: Press F1 and the primary skills come up, press it again (or click on a left or right arrow in the window) and it will move to the next set of abilities. Pressing 1-5 (or clicking an icon) would select that ability, same thing for runes.

Or have preset alternative skills for a hotkey with usage of the F-keys.

Something, anything that would give characters more desperately needed depth with, imo, the improvement that is more than lmb/rmb


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on June 26, 2012, 12:43:28 PM
In D3 I don't have any identity for my character beyond "I'm a wizard" while in D2 I was "a whirlwind pike-barb" or "a lightning sorc" or "a spear/golem necro".

So essentially you miss cookie cutter builds? If you think about it with D3 you can just identify with the current skills you are using. While the variety of skills could be better in D3 this is the one area I liked. Not having to level a new character to play with builds was way more fun that slogging through 30 levels just to test out an idea for a build.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Count Nerfedalot on June 26, 2012, 01:44:56 PM
The problem is anything that encouages skill changes on-the-fly (like hot-keyed skill sets or damage-type immunities/vulnerabilities) becomes a completely useless mechanic once the "real" game begins (at 60) due to their stupid Vision TM insistence on having any skill change break NV.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on June 26, 2012, 05:26:37 PM
In D3 I don't have any identity for my character beyond "I'm a wizard" while in D2 I was "a whirlwind pike-barb" or "a lightning sorc" or "a spear/golem necro".

So essentially you miss cookie cutter builds? If you think about it with D3 you can just identify with the current skills you are using. While the variety of skills could be better in D3 this is the one area I liked. Not having to level a new character to play with builds was way more fun that slogging through 30 levels just to test out an idea for a build.


I think you missed the point - I had a bowazon plus a javazon plus a jabazon - 3 toons, 2 ranged, one melee - there was no cookie cutter build, they were different approaches with a different flavour using different skills. You played each one differently with different subtleties to the way you used each skill.

Now it's: "I'm a monk". By Inferno, I can't be a 2HWW barb because the game won't let you - "sword and board bitch - it's the way you play the game" in the leap from Act4 Hell to Act1 Inferno (at least in my experience - maybe gold farming pointlessly for hours or handing over cash would fix this).

This game is not about builds, it's about gear.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on June 26, 2012, 05:36:41 PM
In D3 I don't have any identity for my character beyond "I'm a wizard" while in D2 I was "a whirlwind pike-barb" or "a lightning sorc" or "a spear/golem necro".

So essentially you miss cookie cutter builds? If you think about it with D3 you can just identify with the current skills you are using. While the variety of skills could be better in D3 this is the one area I liked. Not having to level a new character to play with builds was way more fun that slogging through 30 levels just to test out an idea for a build.


I think you missed the point - I had a bowazon plus a javazon plus a jabazon - 3 toons, 2 ranged, one melee - there was no cookie cutter build, they were different approaches with a different flavour using different skills. You played each one differently with different subtleties to the way you used each skill.

Now it's: "I'm a monk". By Inferno, I can't be a 2HWW barb because the game won't let you - "sword and board bitch - it's the way you play the game" in the leap from Act4 Hell to Act1 Inferno (at least in my experience - maybe gold farming pointlessly for hours or handing over cash would fix this).

This game is not about builds, it's about gear.

I get the point fine. What happened when you got to Hell in d2 and found out that the jabazon was a gimp build and couldn't survive? How did you know you were on the right track unless you copied other successful builds. That is a cookie cutter build.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on June 26, 2012, 06:49:31 PM
I just built the way I wanted, not caring about others' skill allocations.  Never had any trouble, and my Amazons ranged from low 30s to the 70s.

(I did use trainers to respec occasionally, but I considered the lack of that option to be D2's greatest failing.)


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on June 26, 2012, 07:10:06 PM

(I did use trainers to respec occasionally, but I considered the lack of that option to be D2's greatest failing.)

That doesn't really support the current argument though.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: apocrypha on June 26, 2012, 09:57:21 PM
Yes it does Phred. It supports your side of the argument quite nicely I think  :why_so_serious:

Build variety in D3 will open up once the content is mostly trivialised. By gear. Having to level up multiple characters in order to try different specs, with no easy respec option, was retarded and poor gameplay. D3's system is a vast improvement, it's just cockblocked by the equally retarded difficulty jump from Hell to Inferno.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on June 26, 2012, 11:02:00 PM

It is absolutely trivial to separate D3's skill system from the presence or absence of respecs, in comparison with D2's skill system. As evidenced by the fact that a simple trainer could allow you to respec in D2. Nobody has yet suggested that the killer app that made D2's skill system superior was the inability to respec -- a counter-argument based around D3's respeccing is pretty far beside the point being discussed.

Just imagine that you could respec in D2, it's easy to imagine, and it would have been easy to make D3 'just like D2, but you can respec for free.' But they didn't. They made it completely different, in worse or better ways.

Personally, I feel like D3's system is shallow -- the lack of speccing "in" to certain abilities, in the sense of committing some portion of 'build power' (e.g. skill points, but it could have been modelled lots of other ways), makes all the various skill choices feel extremely superficial, particularly in terms of sheer effectiveness. You cannot build a character to take advantage of particular gear, or gear a character to take advantage of specific skill builds -- there are a few exceptions, but basically (as mentioned) you just want all the same stats on your gear no matter what skills/runes you have chosen, give or take some vitality or damage-stat here or there.

The lack of the skill-point/'boost individual skills/runes' build options also reflects back on the gear, as it eliminates things like +skill bonuses and +%damage-type modifiers the like that often made lower-level or lower-base-stat gear still worthwhile in D2. This in turn contributes to the overall-shitty D3 itemization -- with the exception of one or two very specific items (which, surprise! actually have unique or uniquely-effective affixes), you ALWAYS want a level 60 (ilvl 63) item, not only because of higher base armour but just because it will have higher bonuses overall to all the stats you care about. The total lack of sub-60 sets just confirms this, making me wonder how much more interesting itemization would have been if they had just kept the open-ended level-to-99 structure -- I feel like if they had, you would see a greater spread of powerful/or-at-least-interesting legendaries and sets spread through the 45-75 range, instead of just having everything stuffed into level 60, making sub-level-60 'farming' basically pointless and post-level-60 'farming' an exercise in incredible AH-based item glut.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on June 27, 2012, 01:47:15 AM
I get the point fine. What happened when you got to Hell in d2 and found out that the jabazon was a gimp build and couldn't survive? How did you know you were on the right track unless you copied other successful builds. That is a cookie cutter build.

You're right, my poor Matriach Jabazon was totally unable to get through hell because the skills to make her work were totally not-obvious.


Ergo I must have copied some online build... or maybe I worked it out myself as I did my other 'toons. After playing 2 other 'zons I wanted to explore the trees a bit more - it's pretty intuitive stuff. Diablo 2 wasn't rocket science - if people needed to copy builds to beat the game, that's sad.

OK... I may have looked up Runewords to plan my gear, but back in my days of D2 addiction I built the way I liked for fun :)


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on June 27, 2012, 08:24:25 AM
In D3 I don't have any identity for my character beyond "I'm a wizard" while in D2 I was "a whirlwind pike-barb" or "a lightning sorc" or "a spear/golem necro".

So essentially you miss cookie cutter builds? If you think about it with D3 you can just identify with the current skills you are using. While the variety of skills could be better in D3 this is the one area I liked. Not having to level a new character to play with builds was way more fun that slogging through 30 levels just to test out an idea for a build.

I never once looked up a skill build for Diablo 2; I didn't even realize the concept was commonplace until I started raiding in WoW WotLK. And Ice Cream Emperor makes most of points, but I'll elaborate a bit.

Every level up in D2 brought a choice about how you want to increase your power: you got the stats to allocate which you could put towards survivability, damage, throughput, or being able to equip better items. You also got better at your skills, which had a lot of depth because their power had a variable number of levels; skills' power relative to one another were also not flat in D2 because some skills were further down the tree, and thus could be made stronger. Over the course of a character's career, you had more than 100 choices to make about skills (and another 500 or so for stats) between levels and quest rewards*. In D3 you have 15 choices: 6 skills, 6 runes, 3 passives.

*To change gears, quest rewards are pretty terrible in D3. Aside from unlocking the crafters (which happens once ever, account wide) and followers (solo only), the only quest rewards are XP, gold, and the occasional item. In D2 quest rewards consisted of: skill points, stat points, the Horadric Cube (the thing I miss most from D2), Charsi's Make-A-Rare, Add-A-Socket, etc.

The bottom line is that everything in D3 feels so streamlined that the game is no longer interesting to me. If either the skill system or the loot was excellent, I could forgive weaknesses in the other. But those are the core of the game and they got both wrong.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 27, 2012, 10:54:05 AM


Every level up in D2 brought a choice about how you want to increase your power

Not if you knew how to build your character right.  I know you addressed this in your post already, but quite frankly, pumping 5 points into vitality every level wasn't exactly exciting choice making.  If what you miss is the ability to make terrible permanent decisions - well, I can't imagine lots of people miss that.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 27, 2012, 11:20:12 AM
You building your character right at the moment ?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on June 27, 2012, 11:31:14 AM


Every level up in D2 brought a choice about how you want to increase your power

Not if you knew how to build your character right.  I know you addressed this in your post already, but quite frankly, pumping 5 points into vitality every level wasn't exactly exciting choice making.  If what you miss is the ability to make terrible permanent decisions - well, I can't imagine lots of people miss that.

Terrible, permanent decisions? How? This only applied on MAYBE your first time playing the game. Say your first ever character was a Sorc, and you decided to for the first 10 levels to pump up Energy. It doesn't take very long to realize: 'I'm dying too quick' or 'I can't equip new armor'. After that, it doesn't take a genius to go "Well, maybe I'll put points into Strength or Vitality or Dexterity." From that point on, your character is hardly gimped and the 10 levels put into energy are pretty negligible once you get to 50+... so really, I don't see how the D2 stat system was that difficult or confusing that it needed to go. A sorc with 10 levels extra in energy could still complete the game.

The fact is, it was a choice. It was a method to personalize your character and give them a unique feel while feeling like a reward for leveling up. The same exact thing applies to the old skill tree. The only way to gimp your character is to either purposely do it, or to have zero working knowledge on how RPG games always worked.

Sadly, both systems I feel were removed because of the plummeting IQ of today's average 'gamer'.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 27, 2012, 11:51:55 AM
No, the terrible permanent decisions were constant for a lot of players well beyond their first time through the game - and patches changing how things worked made it worse. Getting rid of stat allocation in particular is probably the single biggest improvement between D2 and D3. Skill point allocation is more arguable, D2 system + respecs would probably have been fine. I like the D3 system though, personally.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 27, 2012, 11:52:23 AM
Sadly, both systems I feel were removed because of the plummeting IQ of today's average 'gamer'.

I'm going to call you out on this. If the average gamer doesn't find something fun, it isn't because they are suddenly a lower IQ. It's likely because they don't want to play a numbers game inside their time-waster game. ARPGs are mostly to be about whacking stuff and watching loot fall out, not about spreadsheeting builds.

Frankly, I encourage developers to design games for the customers they have and their needs. If there was an outcry for more math and outside theorycrafting in games on a large scale, you'd see it in more of the games. The fact is that the people who want these things were and still are in a very small minority.

That's not to say you should gut every system, but don't just assume that they removed stuff because our tiny minds couldn't handle it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 27, 2012, 12:07:17 PM
Frankly, I see the plummeting numbers of people playing this shit as a testament to the IQ of gamers.

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 27, 2012, 12:10:52 PM
I think we can agree that Blizzard has managed to suck out much of the fun with their approach to shoring up exploits.

However, I think that has more to do with itemization, barrel nerfs, and repair costs than the skill system.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on June 27, 2012, 12:17:02 PM
While I find the skills all right, I don't find the runes particularly engaging.  As a mechanic, it's kinda bad. 


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on June 27, 2012, 12:20:06 PM
No, the terrible permanent decisions were constant for a lot of players well beyond their first time through the game - and patches changing how things worked made it worse. Getting rid of stat allocation in particular is probably the single biggest improvement between D2 and D3. Skill point allocation is more arguable, D2 system + respecs would probably have been fine. I like the D3 system though, personally.
This is a problem easily fixed via respecs.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lightstalker on June 27, 2012, 12:22:24 PM
... Getting rid of stat allocation in particular is probably the single biggest improvement between D2 and D3. ...

That's not universal and we don't have the telemetry data to say one way or the other which is more popular.  I don't like the change, I'm not alone, but I may not be the majority.  Of course, I'd like the game better if at the end of the game Diablo kicks your ass and 'wins' the game, where your 'victory' is based on achieving victory point conditions in mitigating the loss of everything that is holy to the burning hells.  Then Diablo IV could be played from the other perspective, the desperate and underdog army of Heaven vs. the complacent and all powerful army of Hell.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 27, 2012, 12:32:43 PM
Well yes, I thought the "in my opinion" was implied.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on June 27, 2012, 12:55:07 PM

Why do people keep bringing up the lack of respecs in D2 as though this were a fundamental design decision integral to the skill and stat-allocation system? From a design perspective all you need to do is flick the 'free respecs' switch and there is literally no more problem. The 'you make bad choices and you are permanently screwed' problem is SOLVED. There is a known solution, and it is not 'remove the ability to make choices' -- it is 'let you change your mind later'. I understand how in, like, a story-based CRPG, this won't work as well, and so eliminating bad choices is often a better solution, but in an ARPG it is literally 100% perfect to just let people change their mind later if it turns out they accidentally fucked up their build.

The idea that simply removing entire vectors for character-building, power-allocation, etc. is justified by the (seemingly implied) impossibility of respecs is kind of nuts. I do agree that stat allocation was hardly the most fascinating choice to make, but it was a choice and it did have an impact, and if nothing else it seems to be symptomatic of an overall shift in the design philosophy between the two games.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 27, 2012, 12:58:30 PM
IMO the stat allocation thing was retarded with or without respecs. It wasn't customization, it was just a pass/fail check that everyone failed unless they knew ahead of time what the stat requirements for the very best gear in the game was. Adding a respec to it means you might as well just remove it for all the impact it has... so they did. I can't fault that decision at all.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 27, 2012, 01:01:29 PM
I do agree that stat allocation was hardly the most fascinating choice to make, but it was a choice and it did have an impact, and if nothing else it seems to be symptomatic of an overall shift in the design philosophy between the two games.

Or, the design shift was because it sucked. And as you said, it's hardly fascinating.

Granted, I think they could have done more with the skill system, but removing stat allocation is one of the best ways to keep any game from getting bogged down in completely blind decisions.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 27, 2012, 01:18:02 PM

Why do people keep bringing up the lack of respecs in D2 as though this were a fundamental design decision integral to the skill and stat-allocation system?


Because what people are saying is that they liked the feeling that their build is unique.  Flick on the free respecs button and it doesn't matter if it is skill trees like D2, or the D3 system.  If you want to be a "Nova sorc" or whatever, the system itself matters less than the respecs.  The only thing that made you a "nova sorc" in Diablo 2 is that you couldn't choose to NOT be a nova sorc after the decision was made.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on June 27, 2012, 02:21:33 PM
I felt like a unique snowflake and I used trainers to gain respecs.

Maybe YOU wouldn't, but plenty of us both liked the system and thought it had one, tiny, miniscule flaw which was easily rectified.  I liked just playing the game.  Sometimes I realized I wasn't using a skill and wanted to optimize a bit.  All a respec did was make me not worry if I wasted a level by putting a point in skill A instead of B when it turned out I didn't use A.

What I didn't do was go out hunting theory crafting discussions or to find out what was FotM.  I killed shit and had fun.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on June 27, 2012, 02:46:11 PM
Because what people are saying is that they liked the feeling that their build is unique.  Flick on the free respecs button and it doesn't matter if it is skill trees like D2, or the D3 system.  If you want to be a "Nova sorc" or whatever, the system itself matters less than the respecs.  The only thing that made you a "nova sorc" in Diablo 2 is that you couldn't choose to NOT be a nova sorc after the decision was made.

I understand what you are saying, but really what made you a nova sorc was that you invested your skill points in the skills involving nova-sorcery? And that doing so was considerably more involved than selecting the 'nova' rune on the 'frostular DPS' skill. And the fact that doing this was dramatically different than if you were a fire-hydra-sorc, in terms of build and progression and ideal gear, etc. The builds were dramatically more different-feeling, IMO, even though yes a lot of that was tied to how different they felt to level up.

But yeah, I really don't think free respecs actually means people respec constantly -- I know I certainly don't change my skills that often in D3, and certainly not in a way that dramatically changes my playstyle (or more to the point, makes me feel like 'now I'm a different type of X'). I think even if D2 had respecs, people would still build characters along similar lines -- they just wouldn't have to freak out about mis-allocating skills, and would be free to experiment.

In any case there is obviously a huge, fruitful span of possibility between 'no respecs' and 'trivial, instant respecs' -- heck, it's Diablo, make that shit drop somewhere if you want. The real problem is that the skill system itself does seem to allow for noticeably-different, equally-viable builds within a class.




Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: koro on June 27, 2012, 04:19:54 PM
Diablo 2 actually does have respecs now, 3 per character, earning one each difficulty. It's pretty nice, mainly for "late bloomers" like Whirlwind Barbs, Hammerdins, and Meteorb Sorcs, and can even reset stat points for those folks who like to do experimenting.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: SurfD on June 27, 2012, 06:58:49 PM
On a related note, looks like they are working to fix the level 13 cap on Digital Purchases: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5911721680

Quote
The standard security-related restrictions that will be in place for digital purchases until payment verification is complete:

    No public game access for unverified digital purchasers
    No auction house access (real-money or gold) for unverified digital purchasers
    Unverified digital purchasers cannot trade items or drop items for other players to receive
    Unverified digital purchasers are not able to chat in any public or game channels
    Unverified digital purchasers cannot attach a custom message to friend requests, but they can send/accept friend requests, and play with their friends
    Global Play is not available for unverified digital purchasers
So basically, untill your payment clears as verified, you wont have any way to offload ill-gotten gains, but will be free to power level to your hearts content, and will be able to play with friends, but not be able to join random pubbie games.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on June 27, 2012, 07:31:49 PM
Ok this is definately to combat the gold sellers/spammers. I guess they are using fake credit card numbers or stolen ones to make digital purchases. This sucks for people trying to buy the game legitimately but  I guess we can't have nice things thanks to the greedy among us.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 27, 2012, 08:04:27 PM
That's a much better solution than the level 13 nonsense.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on June 27, 2012, 08:07:37 PM
That's a much better solution than the level 13 nonsense.

Blizzard bending over backward not to piss off customers who are still in the can cancel window. Go figure.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Selby on June 27, 2012, 08:36:00 PM
That's a much better solution than the level 13 nonsense.
Makes you wonder what brain child thought that was a good idea AND approved it for prime time without even conceiving that people might you know, be angry with it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Margalis on June 27, 2012, 11:36:12 PM
Adding a respec to it means you might as well just remove it for all the impact it has... so they did. I can't fault that decision at all.

No, adding a respec means it's another independent vector of character customization with little to no downside.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Typhon on June 28, 2012, 05:18:36 AM
Adding a limited number of respecs means that you end up with an X-type class when you're finished with that champion, leaving room for playing through again as another type in the same class.  It also puts more pressure on the developer to make skills competitive.

Adding unlimited respecs means you play through each class once, and the developer can say (to themselves), "well, this spec can clear this level, so the player just needs to adjust".

I thought I was more of a fan of unlimited respecs, but as it turns out, I like the limited number of respecs more.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on June 28, 2012, 06:35:50 AM
That's a much better solution than the level 13 nonsense.
Makes you wonder what brain child thought that was a good idea AND approved it for prime time without even conceiving that people might you know, be angry with it.

My guess is they didn't think. They just made a kneejerk reaction and it was the wrong one. However, I know several people including myself who made sure to remind them via several communications that it was not the way to handle their business. I'm glad they listened to that, even though we weren't the ones directly affected.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on June 28, 2012, 10:29:27 AM
Adding a limited number of respecs means that you end up with an X-type class when you're finished with that champion, leaving room for playing through again as another type in the same class.  It also puts more pressure on the developer to make skills competitive.

Adding unlimited respecs means you play through each class once, and the developer can say (to themselves), "well, this spec can clear this level, so the player just needs to adjust".

I thought I was more of a fan of unlimited respecs, but as it turns out, I like the limited number of respecs more.
There's also a whole spectrum of options between "respec whenever you want" and "only respec 3 times ever". I'd say the best solution would be a small number of free respecs (say, 1 every 20 levels or once per difficulty level) and a rare drop you can farm for additional respecs.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 28, 2012, 10:50:12 AM
and a rare drop you can farm for additional respecs.

This worked so well in Hellgate: London  :why_so_serious:



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on June 28, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
There's also a whole spectrum of options between "respec whenever you want" and "only respec 3 times ever". I'd say the best solution would be a small number of free respecs (say, 1 every 20 levels or once per difficulty level) and a rare drop you can farm for additional respecs.

D3's system would have allowed for it nicely, I think. 1 respec after finishing Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and Inferno. Then add a rare drop off Inferno act bosses that combined to a respec just like in D2. Or add a respec purchasable from a merchant for a flat rate (a few million) It would be another gold sink, also, which the game could use.

Or hell, have the 4 rare items require a fuser from a merchant. That way you have a flat gold sink + allow players to trade the rare respec items on the AH.

And as another wrinkle: set it up so you could still change whatever rune your skill has or its placement on your hotbar. You just couldn't select other skills without a respec. So many interesting ideas other than "free respecs whenever you want!"


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 28, 2012, 01:23:35 PM
That sounds awful to me. I want free respecs whenever I want.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on June 28, 2012, 02:01:02 PM
Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

It's okay to improve on an existing system.  It's not necessary to throw out the baby Diablo with the holy bath water.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on June 28, 2012, 02:06:57 PM
Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

It's okay to improve on an existing system.  It's not necessary to throw out the baby Diablo with the holy bath water.

I actually disagree.  Sure, maybe some limited amount circumvents the "oh I misplaced a point/accidentally gimped myself, etc etc" but I really think it is being tied in to some degree that people liked about the skills in Diablo 2, at least from the  "identity" argument people are making.  I think the skill tree thing is kind of pointless these days. 

You had exactly one option - any skill you wanted to use regularly, you maxed out (with the exception of a few skills that you put exactly 1 point into because they want they got better wasn't useful).  Other than that prereqs got exactly 1 and everything else 0.  The "decisions" thing about where to put a point each time you leveled up was totally absent if you knew what you were doing.

This isn't just speculation, Median XL added free respecs and characters lost all their identity as far as I was concerned.  The difference being that I don't really care anymore. 


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on June 28, 2012, 02:12:03 PM
Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.


Actually the argument came about because you can't have an identity if you have  respecs.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 28, 2012, 02:19:40 PM
Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.

It's okay to improve on an existing system.  It's not necessary to throw out the baby Diablo with the holy bath water.

Throwing out the attribute system was good. The only thing the attribute system did was test you to see if you knew the exact amount of stats you needed to wear the best gear in the game.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on June 28, 2012, 02:24:50 PM
Argh.  Respecs are a red herring.  The discussion only came about AGAIN because of some insistence that you can't do the D2 skill and attribute system if there are respecs available.


Actually the argument came about because you can't have an identity if you have  respecs.

Nobody seems to care about this anymore.  No real point in arguing it anymore because the same old response of "Well, I like free respecs at any time because... well because one time in Diablo 2 I put too many points into firebolt and I personally feel my character was completely ruined even though it wasn't"


The only thing the attribute system did was test you to see if you knew the exact amount of stats you needed to wear the best gear in the game.

and if you somehow screwed it up you could always put charms in your inventory, or socket items with stat boosting gems, or equip other items that were powerful in the stat you needed.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on June 28, 2012, 02:30:53 PM
No, you needed all your inventory slots to have magic find charms.  :grin:

The point is, it really added nothing to the game. It wasn't 'customizing' your character in any kind of meaningful way.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rokal on June 28, 2012, 03:48:24 PM
Throwing out the attribute system was good. The only thing the attribute system did was test you to see if you knew the exact amount of stats you needed to wear the best gear in the game.

What I miss from the attribute system is the second loot-high it gave you. You'd feel awesome when you found a powerful new item and then you'd feel awesome again when you reached the level/stat requirement to wear it. It built some anticipation up for the loot which was nice.

They could have mirrored this pretty easily by having higher level gear drop sooner. Rather then having lvl 10 items drop frequently when you're level 20, they could have had you finding items that were 17-23. Maybe you'd find a really awesome level 21 item and it would inspire you to get another level before calling it a night. That can be pretty addictive.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Llyse on June 28, 2012, 05:39:00 PM

What I miss from the attribute system is the second loot-high it gave you. You'd feel awesome when you found a powerful new item and then you'd feel awesome again when you reached the level/stat requirement to wear it. It built some anticipation up for the loot which was nice.

They could have mirrored this pretty easily by having higher level gear drop sooner. Rather then having lvl 10 items drop frequently when you're level 20, they could have had you finding items that were 17-23. Maybe you'd find a really awesome level 21 item and it would inspire you to get another level before calling it a night. That can be pretty addictive.

This. They were too conservative with ilevels which was completely negated by the AH availability.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on June 29, 2012, 04:54:08 AM

It's particularly mind-boggling given that they have so clearly designed the (itemization) game around 'everyone gets to level 60 and then the Real Loot starts' -- given that, why not make the levelling-up and first-time-play experience like 1000% more fun by tuning the game to provide more supra-level drops?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Typhon on June 29, 2012, 05:22:54 AM
No, you needed all your inventory slots to have magic find charms.  :grin:

The point is, it really added nothing to the game. It wasn't 'customizing' your character in any kind of meaningful way.

Disagree.  I loved how everything was random in D1, including skills (but I understood why that would annoy some folks).  Maximum re-playability.

Still enjoyed multiple playthroughs in D2 because you'd get an awesome legendary on one playthrough that you hand-me-down to the next char, and on the next char you would allocate stats and skills to optimize for that type of weapon.  I found it fun, and it was definitely meaningful.

Free respecs don't have to kill playability in D3 (but they have to add content, and we know how fast and easy that is to add), but they definitely kill re-playability.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on June 29, 2012, 05:55:55 AM
I'm with Typhon; I played every class through normal in D2 at least two or three times because it was fun rollong a new one if you found a badass low level unique or wanted to try a new skill build. I'll never do that in D3 which means I'll get less playtime from it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on June 29, 2012, 07:32:58 AM
I have to agree on both points.  D1 was a ton of fun to find books and shrines randomly.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Margalis on July 01, 2012, 01:35:44 AM
Fundamentally Diablo was a loot collecting gain that was addictive on the principle of random rewards awarded at random intervals. That by itself is a powerful psychological hook. But it also implies some neat gameplay things - often times having to be creative and work within constraints is more fun than having carte blanche. Random drops can encourage you to try a play style you wouldn't otherwise have tried.

Diablo 3 is a game where you farm with a fixed expected value of gold return per minute played, then use that gold to buy whatever you want. Instead of random reward at random interval it's essentially a fixed, regular, completely unsexy income, and being able to buy whatever you want means never being prodded to explore anything than exactly what you choose.

It's pretty fundamental psychology. I suspect Blizzard vastly over-estimated the number and importance of people who played Diablo 1 and 2 with enough organized trading that those games also became income collecting games.

A similar thing happened with the Earth Defense Force series. The game was based on random drops, then the US made version switched to enemies dropping cash and buying/upgrading in the shop. It's just not the same. The thrill and forced inventiveness were both removed.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Kageru on July 01, 2012, 04:56:54 AM

Good point.

Respecs in a game where the content is continually being expanded (MMO's) and when the class is majorly re-balanced. Not so much if you want the player base to be playing the same content for years, especially if you find gear in one play-through that would be excellent for some specialized variant. You want to encourage people to be re-rolling new characters even if they have a high level "grind" optimised character.

Heck, I played a minion-less poison dagger necromancer in D2. He sort of sucked, needed very specialized gear and had a really odd gameplay. That just means the roof of how far I could take it was lower but it was still fun seeing how far I could take the build. And certainly didn't see many other people doing the same.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Flinky on July 01, 2012, 09:12:19 AM

Good point.

Respecs in a game where the content is continually being expanded (MMO's) and when the class is majorly re-balanced. Not so much if you want the player base to be playing the same content for years, especially if you find gear in one play-through that would be excellent for some specialized variant. You want to encourage people to be re-rolling new characters even if they have a high level "grind" optimised character.

Heck, I played a minion-less poison dagger necromancer in D2. He sort of sucked, needed very specialized gear and had a really odd gameplay. That just means the roof of how far I could take it was lower but it was still fun seeing how far I could take the build. And certainly didn't see many other people doing the same.


It makes me wonder how different a feel the game would have had if Blizzard kept their original random drop design for runes.

Also, I  :heart: Teethomancers.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 02, 2012, 12:58:55 PM
Breaking the holiday weekend silence to do a PR release about a D3 book probably could have been left alone on the forums.

Oh and nuking the comments from orbit on the forums is getting out of hand. I think the thread made it 4 pages in the story forum before they locked it and deleted all the comments that weren't "THIS BOOK IS GREAT BUYZ IT!"


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 02, 2012, 01:09:40 PM
Deleting off-topic stuff in a non-general forum is good moderation. Now if they're deleting legitimate posts criticizing the book itself (which I am sure is horrible) that's another matter.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 02, 2012, 01:34:12 PM
Deleting off-topic stuff in a non-general forum is good moderation. Now if they're deleting legitimate posts criticizing the book itself (which I am sure is horrible) that's another matter.

Take a look at the post itself. It's hard for me to believe that every single thing was off topic except the posts that were positive.

That one thread looks like it's been A-bombed. Just look at the missing #s on the post counts each page.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5979090893#1


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 02, 2012, 01:36:54 PM
It's possible - the general forum people often stampede blue posts with off topic <current gripe here> and the story forum people have really terrible taste.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 02, 2012, 01:59:46 PM
<insert joke about them enjoying the D3 story here>


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 02, 2012, 04:10:59 PM

It makes me wonder how different a feel the game would have had if Blizzard kept their original random drop design for runes.


With an auction house? Not much everyone would have every rune soon anyway unless they were insanely rare.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on July 03, 2012, 01:45:58 AM
Indeed.  The AH is the biggest thing to consider;  the impact it has on the whole game and how you would design the whole game, is monstrous.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 03, 2012, 10:15:25 AM
New hulabaloo today: Magic Find Gear Swapping, and how to stop it!

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6583302/Magic_Find_Gear_Swapping-7_3_2012


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 03, 2012, 10:27:31 AM
New hulabaloo today: Magic Find Gear Swapping, and how to stop it!

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6583302/Magic_Find_Gear_Swapping-7_3_2012

"Let us know what you think"

I think you don't need to keep tinkering with shit like this.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Typhon on July 03, 2012, 10:33:19 AM
I tried to login to reply, "cap it!   ... and put a little thought into why your All Resist implementation is stupid while you're at it", but couldn't because:

"This account has limited posting access due to the following condition:
                        
                              
      This game license has expired or been cancelled."

henh?  oh whatever, I didn't want to post that badly anyway.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 03, 2012, 11:11:20 AM
I think you don't need to keep tinkering with shit like this.

I dunno man, I think it would be a pretty big improvement to fix that stupidity.  Not only does it remove a silly mechanic, it also makes you actually have to think about what gear you want to equip, which is sort of one of the things that is missing right now, imho.

Edit:  Option 5 is so hilariously bad I'm surprised they even bothered to mention it.

Personally I'd go with 2 (the slow changing one).  I don't think the biggest problem is that gear-swapping is beneficial, but rather that magic find on your "real" gear isn't very important.  I don't think it's a big deal if people swap gear to get a couple extra %, but I do think it's a big deal if your "real" gear doesn't benefit from magic find.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Miasma on July 03, 2012, 11:21:50 AM
That thread is almost 300 pages long in under two hours.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: statisticalfool on July 03, 2012, 12:01:40 PM
I think #4 is kind of best to me. (and a lot of the poll seems to be going there and #1, which I admit, has its own appeal)

#2 just introduces the "kite the monster for X time while you wait for your MF gear to work"

Three minutes seems long enough that you'd avoid kiting (because that's long enough to hit another pack easy), and it's also pretty clean as a mechanic. Swap gear, lose your MF. The end.

And honestly? How often do 60s find upgrades on the ground?

I think #5 (lose NV stacks) is just there because so many people have mentioned it, and just to acknowledge that that bad idea is there.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Mrbloodworth on July 03, 2012, 12:44:31 PM
New hulabaloo today: Magic Find Gear Swapping, and how to stop it!

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6583302/Magic_Find_Gear_Swapping-7_3_2012



Indeed.  The AH is the biggest thing to consider;  the impact it has on the whole game and how you would design the whole game, is monstrous.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Tarami on July 03, 2012, 12:48:50 PM
Jesus, it's getting old.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 03, 2012, 01:13:42 PM
I think #4 is kind of best to me. (and a lot of the poll seems to be going there and #1, which I admit, has its own appeal)

#2 just introduces the "kite the monster for X time while you wait for your MF gear to work"

Yeah, you won me over, I think #4 wins.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 03, 2012, 05:30:57 PM
#4 seems the most logical, which means they will probably cap it and piss everyone off.

This is an example for me that falls under "stupid shit that is not fun, but gives an advantage" mechanics. Those shouldn't be encouraged. Yet again, however, it points out that their difficulty curve / itemization isn't close to right.

I honestly think Blizzard could win over a ton of people if they put in a mode that was completely single player. No AH, no invites, no linking, no ladder, no achievements, but it had the drop rates adjusted for life on your own.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 03, 2012, 05:55:46 PM
I honestly think Blizzard could win over a ton of people if they put in a mode that was completely single player. No AH, no invites, no linking, no ladder, no achievements, but it had the drop rates adjusted for life on your own.

I would play the hell out of that.  Though I don't see why achievements and linking and such would be out, unless you mean literally that the game would be in offline mode.

Be cool if I could have a private "world" with just me and my couple of friends that I play with, with no items coming from the outside world.  But that's probably getting a little too weird.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Fabricated on July 03, 2012, 06:19:20 PM
Torchlight 2 can come out any fucking millennium now.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 03, 2012, 06:53:39 PM

Be cool if I could have a private "world" with just me and my couple of friends that I play with, with no items coming from the outside world.  But that's probably getting a little too weird.

Just agree with them to do it?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 03, 2012, 07:19:55 PM
Just agree with them to do it?

Well, yeah, there's that. :)

Seriously, though, there definitely is an effect from having an option available to you, even if you decide not to use it.  Using that same logic, you don't actually need there to be a hardcore mode built into the game.  Now, I agree that the weird multiplayer-limited thing I was babbling about is probably a little too complex a concept to build into a game mode, but I'm not sure the "single-player" mode is.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Merusk on July 03, 2012, 08:11:25 PM
I tried to login to reply, "cap it!   ... and put a little thought into why your All Resist implementation is stupid while you're at it", but couldn't because:

"This account has limited posting access due to the following condition:
                        
                              
      This game license has expired or been cancelled."

henh?  oh whatever, I didn't want to post that badly anyway.

Check what you're logged in as. If you're using one of your old WOW characters as your avatar you'll get that error. Make sure you've got D3 chosen.  Someone here let me know that during beta.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 03, 2012, 09:07:59 PM
I tried to login to reply, "cap it!   ... and put a little thought into why your All Resist implementation is stupid while you're at it", but couldn't because:

"This account has limited posting access due to the following condition:
                        
                              
      This game license has expired or been cancelled."

henh?  oh whatever, I didn't want to post that badly anyway.

I had that too. You are trying to use a WoW character account without it being active. Use the switch character panel to select a D3 char and you can post fine.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Typhon on July 03, 2012, 09:27:56 PM
Thanks Merusk and Phred! (was using WoW char)


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 03, 2012, 09:47:04 PM
#4 seems the most logical, which means they will probably cap it and piss everyone off.

This is an example for me that falls under "stupid shit that is not fun, but gives an advantage" mechanics. Those shouldn't be encouraged. Yet again, however, it points out that their difficulty curve / itemization isn't close to right.

I honestly think Blizzard could win over a ton of people if they put in a mode that was completely single player. No AH, no invites, no linking, no ladder, no achievements, but it had the drop rates adjusted for life on your own.

How about number 6. Stop trying to force us to play the way you want us to?



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 04, 2012, 05:49:42 AM
Sure thing. You just defend gear swapping as fun game play that would exist without the magic find incentive, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, its stupid and needs to go.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on July 04, 2012, 05:54:04 AM
Magic find was always kind of retarded anyway.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 04, 2012, 05:56:14 AM
Magic find was always kind of retarded anyway.


Agreed. I would remove the stat, but i think there is a legit point for some finding it fun


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Tebonas on July 04, 2012, 06:21:04 AM
Not as fun as raising drop rates across the board and be done with that stat, I presume.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 04, 2012, 08:30:17 AM
Sure thing. You just defend gear swapping as fun game play that would exist without the magic find incentive, and I'll agree with you. Otherwise, its stupid and needs to go.


How about I define gear swapping as retardedly anal and you defend retardedly anal play as fun play and I'll agree with you? I, unlike you, don't care if these morons switch gear in and out and wish they'd stop bitching about the "need" to do it. You on the other hand appear to side with the retards.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 04, 2012, 09:27:34 AM
You think if you did not care you would just ignore it. Regardless of who champions the argument i am against design that is both nonsensical and not fun.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 04, 2012, 10:14:48 AM
Regardless of who champions the argument i am against design that is both nonsensical and not fun.

Every game in the world has wonky optimizations you can do if you really care about that sort of thing.   It just doesn't seem to me to be worth a lot of effort when it isn't game breaking in any way.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 04, 2012, 10:58:17 AM
You think if you did not care you would just ignore it. Regardless of who champions the argument i am against design that is both nonsensical and not fun.

I'd love to ignore it but these nerfs are overbroad and affect the way I like to play. Like the container nerf. Currently when I play I run about 100mf and don't swap but some of the suggestions to improve things for the anal poopsockers would negatively effect my experience.




Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 04, 2012, 11:03:49 AM
I am against the container Nerf. Its too broad and the Mf cap is broad. The 3m thing is not. If they go that way it will be fine


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 04, 2012, 11:09:19 AM
anal poop

 :awesome_for_real:

I find it a tad bit sad that they're spending so much time on this. A blog with multiple ideas? Asking the community for their opinion? There has to be other, more important things the community managers could be spending their time on.

And honestly, how did they not have the foresight to see this coming? Finding high MF on gear that is also high in useful stats is rare. High MF causes higher quality loot to drop. Farming higher quality loot is what this game is all about. It isn't a huge leap to think "Hmm, players are probably just going to swap in high MF gear right before the final blow"

The lack of foresight with this game is astonishing, especially considering they had a fucking template to look back on in D2. Now we have the community divided over a stupid fucking 'issue'


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lightstalker on July 04, 2012, 11:13:21 AM
So much for optimizing your gear for specific damage types and playstyles to tackle different classes of opponent (Gear or Weapon Swap).  Ok, I know D3 isn't exactly quite the same game as D1 in that respect where you'd need a particular damage type to get through the immunities, but that's where gear swaps play.  Of course, the stupid NV drop also kills the incentive to skill swap to handle specific encounters as well.  It is like they forgot why they were putting a pile of damage and resistance types into the game.  The dislike of swapping (skills or gear) pushes the game towards "One Set To Rule Them All" character and gear design and that's just dumb in this kind of game.

MF and GF was harmless in a world where my behavior has limited repurcussions on other players.  Via the AH this is mitigated somewhat.  What they should really do it put back the 10k gold limit per inventory slot (100k?  whatever) and force folks to drop that gold on the ground at the start of their run.  An actual opportunity cost for hording cash would nip a lot of this in the bud and we'd be back to a more robust SoJ based economy in no time.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rokal on July 04, 2012, 11:34:07 AM
There has to be other, more important things the community managers could be spending their time on.

I seriously doubt it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 04, 2012, 11:36:41 AM
I am against the container Nerf. Its too broad and the Mf cap is broad. The 3m thing is not. If they go that way it will be fine

Yeah, I agree, and very much agree that the MF cap is fundamentally different than some of the other changes.  If you don't gear swap (as I myself do not), a couple of those changes will not have any real effect on you.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 04, 2012, 12:44:51 PM
There has to be other, more important things the community managers could be spending their time on.

I seriously doubt it.

Ya it's not like they could poll about how to make the game more fun or anything like that.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on July 04, 2012, 01:41:41 PM
And honestly, how did they not have the foresight to see this coming?

Especially since I remember doing this in Diablo 2, though only with those two high MF weapons that you could swap in for your barb for the last part of boss fights.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rokal on July 04, 2012, 01:45:56 PM
Ya it's not like they could poll about how to make the game more fun or anything like that.

"How to make Diablo 3 more fun" or alternatively "Why Diablo 3 isn't fun and how to make it fun" compromises 90% of discussion on both this sub-forum and the official forums. I get the impression that the Blizzard CMs probably have a pretty good idea of what long-term changes players who visit the forums want to see at this point, assuming they have checked the forums once or twice since Diablo 3 released. "How to make the game more fun" also isn't as well-suited to a poll because many changes they could make would be months (if not years) out and players aren't expecting only one outcome from the available options. They might want every change listed in the poll. The Magic-Find changes are simple mechanical changes compared to something like "Add new sets and uniques to Normal-Hell", "Make uniques more interesting", or "Add more randomized end-game content". Asking the community what MF changes they'd prefer out of a very specific list seems like a great idea for a poll/discussion, and a perfect use of CM's time.

Speaking of CMs...

Quote from: Bashiok
We recognize that the item hunt is just not enough for a long-term sustainable end-game. There are still tons of people playing every day and week, and playing a lot, but eventually they're going to run out of stuff to do (if they haven't already). Killing enemies and finding items is a lot of fun, and we think we have a lot of the systems surrounding that right, or at least on the right path with a few corrections and tweaks. But honestly Diablo III is not World of Warcraft. We aren't going to be able to pump out tons of new systems and content every couple months. There needs to be something else that keeps people engaged, and we know it's not there right now.

We're working toward 1.0.4, which we're really trying to pack with as many fixes and changes we can to help you guys out (and we'll have a bunch of articles posted with all the details as we get closer), and we're of course working on 1.1 with PvP arenas. I think both those patches will do a lot to give people things to do, and get them excited about playing, but they're not going to be a real end-game solution, at least not what we would expect out of a proper end-game. We have some ideas for progression systems, but honestly it's a huge feature if we want to try to do it right, and not something we could envision being possible until well after 1.1 which it itself still a ways out.

Thank you very much for this informative and honest answer. Though to be honest what this answer really reveals is "we didn't have a real end game ready or in mind and aren't sure how to retain customers, the game was released before it was quite ready, possibly because of the giant outcry from the fans"

Hindsight is 20/20 I suppose, but we believed pre-release that the item hunt would be far more sustainable, and would work to be a proper end-game for quite a while. That didn't turn out to be true, and we recognize that.

I appreciate the truthful answer but this is really not the sort of thing a CM should be saying in public. There are already articles popping up with headlines like "Blizzard Admits There's Not Enough Content in Diablo 3".

Meanwhile Bashiok is under the impression that Blizzard pumps out new content for WoW "every couple of months", when the game is on track to go a year without any content updates. :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 04, 2012, 02:41:46 PM
Meanwhile Bashiok is under the impression that Blizzard pumps out new content for WoW "every couple of months", when the game is on track to go a year without any content updates. :oh_i_see:

Really? It allmost seems like they might have pulled some WoW devs off WoW to work on another Blizzard product that just released.... hmm....


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Trippy on July 04, 2012, 02:49:13 PM
Or maybe all the WoW devs are working on MoP :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 04, 2012, 03:51:44 PM
I appreciate the truthful answer but this is really not the sort of thing a CM should be saying in public. There are already articles popping up with headlines like "Blizzard Admits There's Not Enough Content in Diablo 3".

Meanwhile Bashiok is under the impression that Blizzard pumps out new content for WoW "every couple of months", when the game is on track to go a year without any content updates. :oh_i_see:

I disagree. It's EXACTLY the thing I'd want to see from my CMs. What these companies need to learn is that telling the truth doesn't hurt you in the long run. Insulting the intelligence of your fans and leaving them in the complete dark on your direction does hurt your company.

What exactly does that do if Bashiok says that? For one thing, it vindicates the detractors to a degree, and admits that they made mistakes with the projects. Honestly, there is almost nobody in the D3 community that didn't already believe this game has been mismanaged and seems rudderless. Telling them what they already know does nothing except make the customers feel more involved in your commitment to fix the issues. Trying to pretend there are no issues or saying nothing gets you into the boat of Bioware with the ME3 ending.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rokal on July 04, 2012, 04:22:14 PM
It may discourage other people from buying the game. Though it's already sold millions of copies, headlines that make it seem like even Blizzard thinks Diablo 3 didn't have enough content could turn people off who were otherwise planning on buying it. Blizzard games usually continue to sell well long after their release month, so it's a consequence worth considering.

More important to the discussion: in this case what I think it does is add more fuel to the fire of complaints. Now complainers have been vindicated by Blizzard itself. It's no longer a debate about whether the game launched with enough content, working itemization, or balanced difficulties: there answer straight from the source is that it didn't. What good comes from saying this now when the changes people want to see are realistically 1-2 years away given the speed your company moves?

Similarly, in Bioware's situation, if they came out and said "We agree our ending was awful, our bad." but did not announce any concrete plans to change it, would that really have silenced players asking for a changes or would it just have encouraged them to continue asking?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 04, 2012, 04:42:55 PM
Admitting there's a problem is the hardest step in anything. It gets the gears turning in the direction to fix it instead of simply ignoring the issue.

It's one of the things they didn't do with Cataclysm until it was BEYOND too late. I think there's no downside to their sales because the forums and websites are already beating them to death. If the people out there are ignoring the media/talk about the game, then Blizzard saying anything doesn't affect the sales. What it does do is place an importance on Blizzard delivering a patch and then spurring sales. It creates a situation where people that were unlikely to buy the game because they heard so many bad things, now look to buy the game when and if Blizzard dishes out the fixes.

Also, admitting fault doesn't add more fuel to the fire. Speculation is always what adds fuel to fire. The unknown adds fuel to the fire. Truth about the process just stops arguments about what the company does and doesn't "get" about their game.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 04, 2012, 07:24:31 PM
What exactly does that do if Bashiok says that? For one thing, it vindicates the detractors to a degree, and admits that they made mistakes with the projects. Honestly, there is almost nobody in the D3 community that didn't already believe this game has been mismanaged and seems rudderless. Telling them what they already know does nothing except make the customers feel more involved in your commitment to fix the issues. Trying to pretend there are no issues or saying nothing gets you into the boat of Bioware with the ME3 ending.

Heh, I was going to make the ME3 comparison myself, but was beaten to it.  It may be the case that this causes problems or something with lots of other people, but for me, this is exactly the kind of communication that makes me trust a company.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 04, 2012, 07:31:35 PM
I'd love to see the numbers on how many people stopped playing after a couple weeks/month.  It was probably one of those "oh shit, this is gonna be bad for PR" moments.  Diablo3 sold a lot but it's not D3 or even RMAH I think they are worried about, it's the brand.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 04, 2012, 08:33:58 PM
Also, I think most late adopters come in due to word of mouth so I'd guess that they won't get the same kind of sales that they might get from most of their other games, cause really, the vocal word of mouth on this is pretty bad. I can't imagine Blizzard denying there is a problem is gonna help much with that. The two most casual gamers I know are long gone, and not overly impressed with the game, though they both liked D2 well enough.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: LK on July 05, 2012, 11:59:49 AM
Some of my friends are still playing this game, really enjoy it. They're not taking it so seriously, I guess. They haven't reached Inferno yet, stayed away from AH, and are taking their time with it. I don't foresee this game joining the pantheon of amazing Blizzard titles near and dear to the heart of gamers everywhere, but they have a solid game underneath it all. It is unfortunate it took so long to get there and it is mired with so much baggage.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 05, 2012, 12:06:55 PM
It is unfortunate it took so long to get there and it is mired with so much baggage.

The real trouble is the first part.  Blizzard has a history of releasing good patches to fix iffy games (or even good expansion packs to fix iffy games).  But they don't have that luxury anymore.  Diablo 2 was nowhere NEAR what Lord of Destruction became - but at the time it was all anyone knew, more or less, and there was just a lot less shared bitching about things.  Hell, I didn't talk about games online when Diablo 2 was new, let alone read what other people were saying about it online.  I just bought it and played it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on July 06, 2012, 07:58:30 AM
Oh Just STOP.

Diablo 2 at release, bare ass bones, no patches, was fucking fifteen THOUSAND times the game this is.

There was fuck all iffy about it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 06, 2012, 08:16:44 AM
Oh Just STOP.

Diablo 2 at release, bare ass bones, no patches, was fucking fifteen THOUSAND times the game this is.

There was fuck all iffy about it.

Yes, it was. So much of the games that year were so much better than the stuff we get now. Diablo 2, Shogun: TW, Deus Ex, Thief 2, The Sims, Icewind Dale, Escape from Monkey Island, and Baldur's Gate 2 all came out that year.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: 01101010 on July 06, 2012, 08:59:05 AM
But that is not how it goes now. Everything is ONLINE ONLY now so they can release half-assed games that they can continue to work on but collect the box sales while they do it. There is no reason to release a complete game anymore... just release the demo and DLC the rest, for a fee of course.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 06, 2012, 09:52:25 AM
Man, I dunno guys, I think D3's core gameplay is pretty damn good.  I never got through all of D2, and that was back when I didn't have tons of games to play cuz I was poor.  I'm not saying that's true for everyone, or even most people, but I do think the actual "game" part of D3 is goddamn great.  I don't usually play games for 200 hours, after all.

I don't disagree that there are severely fucked up aspects of the game though.  And while I don't have much D2 experience, it's entirely possible it didn't have the same kind of severe flaws.  And yeah, it may be that D3 isn't really up to Blizzard's standards.  But it's still a great game.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 06, 2012, 10:00:58 AM
Man, I dunno guys, I think D3's core gameplay is pretty damn good.  I never got through all of D2, and that was back when I didn't have tons of games to play cuz I was poor.  I'm not saying that's true for everyone, or even most people, but I do think the actual "game" part of D3 is goddamn great.  I don't usually play games for 200 hours, after all.

I don't disagree that there are severely fucked up aspects of the game though.  And while I don't have much D2 experience, it's entirely possible it didn't have the same kind of severe flaws.  And yeah, it may be that D3 isn't really up to Blizzard's standards.  But it's still a great game.

People are also remembering the height of D2 v. the launch of D3.  Diablo 3 is vastly superior on release than Diablo 2 was on release.  Obviously they should have more experience and not make some of the mistakes they did.  But in the end I agree with you - the core gameplay is damn good, and that is why I keep playing - and also why I think it'll be fine once they get their end game figured out.  I mean, if a bunch of you out there just get no enjoyment from the actual *playing* of the game, then I'm not really sure what you did expect in the first place.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 06, 2012, 10:35:12 AM
I enjoy D3 just fine, but they fucked up the skill + itemization interdependencies. That's something D2 did right at release, then tweaked later for balance.

I mean really, when you get down to nuts and bolts, the ARPG is about using skills and finding new gear that works with those skills.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: amiable on July 06, 2012, 10:47:25 AM

People are also remembering the height of D2 v. the launch of D3.  Diablo 3 is vastly superior on release than Diablo 2 was on release.  Obviously they should have more experience and not make some of the mistakes they did.  But in the end I agree with you - the core gameplay is damn good, and that is why I keep playing - and also why I think it'll be fine once they get their end game figured out.  I mean, if a bunch of you out there just get no enjoyment from the actual *playing* of the game, then I'm not really sure what you did expect in the first place.

I respectfully disagree.  I played the heck out of D2 vanilla, but had to quit before the expansion because it was literally ruining my life.  D2 vanilla even with many of it's annoying characteristics is leaps and bounds better than this game (at least for me), why:

1.  Build diversity.  Each class had a series of choices that made subtype classes play vastly different than other subtypes.  Due to the difficulty curve of this game, at higher levels certain skills/talents are obligatory, leading to a "sameness" problem (eg poison dart, revenge, the demon hunter shield thingee I can't remember right now, etc...)

2.  Gear diversity.  In vanilla you could solve most of your resistance problems by getting a triple diamond shield.  In general it took only a few dedicated pieces of gear to be defensively powerful enough to explore end game content.  In this game EVERY SINGLE piece of your gear save maybe your weapon must have resist all +vitality and +main stat or it is completely useless.  Which would be find if they had lots of sets/uniques that provided this and dropped at a reaonable rate.  But the drop rate for these items is literally microscopic and most of the time they are worse than blues you can farm from the merchants. 

3.  Too many design decisions seem to have been made based on the AH and RMAH.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on July 06, 2012, 11:00:39 AM
I don't respectfully disagree.  I think Mala is utterly full of fucking shite and listening to him tell me what I remember is fucking offensive.

Quote
Diablo 3 is vastly superior on release than Diablo 2 was on release. 


No.  It isn't.

I think the stuff the developers themselves are coming out with versus what I'm hearing from almost every source also tells much more of a realistic story than some fanboi with a hardon.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 06, 2012, 11:01:36 AM
For me at least, D2 builds weren't interesting at all until they added synergies. Until then it was just an exercise in not spending your points, which was beyond stupid. The rune system blows the initial D2 skill system away IMO.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on July 06, 2012, 11:05:09 AM
I'd actually agree with that to an extent.  But I don't really think that was more than window dressing.  The whole point of Diablo was smacking things until they popped nice stuff out the corpse.  Everything else was just window dressing.

Take books in the original Diablo - God, you spurted pure joy when you found a bookshelf.  Same in D2 when something genuinely nice dropped and you had a chance of a unique even right at the start.

Swing and a miss with this one.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: koro on July 06, 2012, 11:12:22 AM
I really wish my original D2 1.0 CDs still worked (or if someone had a 1.0 patch_d2.mpq on hand). I'd be super interested in going back and showing off the differences between 1.0, 1.09 (the last patch before synergies and the Hell revamp) and 1.13d, which is the current patch.

Ah, the days of 20-hit Zeal that could take upwards of a minute to execute with a slow enough weapon.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 06, 2012, 11:14:21 AM
I don't respectfully disagree.  I think Mala is utterly full of fucking shite and listening to him tell me what I remember is fucking offensive.


Sorry you are so butthurt over it.  Get over it maybe?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 06, 2012, 11:18:44 AM
I really wish my original D2 1.0 CDs still worked (or if someone had a 1.0 patch_d2.mpq on hand). I'd be super interested in going back and showing off the differences between 1.0, 1.09 (the last patch before synergies and the Hell revamp) and 1.13d, which is the current patch.

Ah, the days of 20-hit Zeal that could take upwards of a minute to execute with a slow enough weapon.

Yeah Zeal is the first thing I think of when people talk about D2 at release. Put too many points in that? Sorry, character ruined, start over. Read the forums first next time!


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 06, 2012, 11:31:18 AM
I don't respectfully disagree.  I think Mala is utterly full of fucking shite and listening to him tell me what I remember is fucking offensive.


Sorry you are so butthurt over it.  Get over it maybe?

To be fair, your viewpoint on what's fun in games is pretty narrow and ridiculous. I believe at one point or another you questioned even playing stuff anymore.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 06, 2012, 11:33:11 AM
Meh, we all have our little quirks.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: koro on July 06, 2012, 11:34:43 AM
I really wish my original D2 1.0 CDs still worked (or if someone had a 1.0 patch_d2.mpq on hand). I'd be super interested in going back and showing off the differences between 1.0, 1.09 (the last patch before synergies and the Hell revamp) and 1.13d, which is the current patch.

Ah, the days of 20-hit Zeal that could take upwards of a minute to execute with a slow enough weapon.

Yeah Zeal is the first thing I think of when people talk about D2 at release. Put too many points in that? Sorry, character ruined, start over. Read the forums first next time!

Yeah, D2 was by no means a perfect game at release, and the Paladin was probably the least playable character until damn near LoD. I'm pretty sure one of the only viable Paladin builds until 1.07 was an Avenger. If you had the good fortune to roll one of the other four classes though? Fun times.

But that doesn't really matter, though. It's like everyone says for MMOs and WoW clones: Diablo 3 doesn't have to stack up to the Diablo 2 of 2000, it has to stack up to the Diablo 2 of 2012.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 06, 2012, 11:35:32 AM
I don't respectfully disagree.  I think Mala is utterly full of fucking shite and listening to him tell me what I remember is fucking offensive.


Sorry you are so butthurt over it.  Get over it maybe?

To be fair, your viewpoint on what's fun in games is pretty narrow and ridiculous. I believe at one point or another you questioned even playing stuff anymore.

Yeah, that is fine.  I deserve whatever jaw I get around here.  My problem with Ironwood in that post is that it seems to be that he has trouble taking it too.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 06, 2012, 11:36:25 AM
He's fucking Scottish. He wakes up chewing nails and telling people to fuck off.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 06, 2012, 11:38:57 AM
Anyone who can endure multiple seasons of playing Skaven in Blood Bowl gets no accusations of thin skin from me.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Slayerik on July 06, 2012, 12:34:00 PM
I def played D3 more hours in the first few months than I did D2. Not saying it is better, but was worth my money regardless of future patches.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Sjofn on July 06, 2012, 01:51:01 PM
I never finished the D2 campaign. I've gotten to hell on more than one character in D3. So D3 wins for me.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lightstalker on July 06, 2012, 01:56:21 PM
D2 Release Paladin with Zeal and inverted Auras was awesome (instead of a circlular aura radius, the quadrants of the circle were mirrored corner to corner so it was a star shape instead of a circle).  Basically, this level of finish is exactly what Blizzard has been known for for about as long as anyone can remember.  This *is* situation normal for them.  If the rest of the industry wasn't even more messed up they'd have been knocked off their perch long ago. 

Hooray lowered expectations!


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Trippy on July 06, 2012, 02:00:07 PM
I don't respectfully disagree.  I think Mala is utterly full of fucking shite and listening to him tell me what I remember is fucking offensive.
You should take a break from posting in the D3 threads.



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Job601 on July 06, 2012, 02:06:05 PM
I don't respectfully disagree.  I think Mala is utterly full of fucking shite and listening to him tell me what I remember is fucking offensive.
You should take a break from posting in the D3 threads.


[/quote

Like I said before, he's lost all touch with reality when it comes to this game.  These threads have had a pretty good discussion of the pros and cons of this game if you tune out his histrionic bile.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Miasma on July 06, 2012, 03:27:38 PM
I think I played through D2 once and then never played it again.  I like launch day D3 more.

The only thing I remember from D2 is really, really hating some giant jungle type set of zones.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Hawkbit on July 06, 2012, 05:42:57 PM
I'm exactly the opposite.  D3 feels like FF13 - all just a path to the end.  D2 is the same, sure, but it at least felt more epic. 

I'm cooling off a bit from my intense dislike for D3's implementation and I'm going to give it another try soon.  I might just try to play without using the AH at all.  I think that might help my frustration.

It helps that Blizzard acknowledged that they have a sustainability issue.  Maybe we'll see some change down the pike.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 06, 2012, 05:50:43 PM
D2 is the same, sure, but it at least felt more epic. 

It helps when you don't have the bad guy at the end of each act constantly talking to you saying "Ha ha ha! You'll never find me! Ha ha ha!" every 5 minutes.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on July 06, 2012, 07:16:46 PM
D2 is the same, sure, but it at least felt more epic. 

It helps when you don't have the bad guy at the end of each act constantly talking to you saying "Ha ha ha! You'll never find me! Ha ha ha!" every 5 minutes.

But IT'S BECAUSE HE IS A TACTICAL GENIUS.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on July 07, 2012, 12:41:34 AM
As was pointed out earlier, D3 should be meeting then exceeding the current iteration of D2 (and I tend to agree that D2 on release was more fun than D3). The reality is that the devs took a big shit all over that, got on the blogosphere and told the word how shitty D2s mechanics are and how they were going to improve that and then got a heavy dose of karma in the arse without so much as a reach-around due to their arrogance when people pointed out that at least D2 was fun.

I find their disrespect towards the D2 team saddening, it was an ego boost of Romero-like proportions and unworthy of one of the better developed games of that era.

D3 will tide me over until TL2 - because the TL devs seem to get it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 07, 2012, 10:25:12 AM
Oh come now, the bit where you had to save your points and not spend them until you could dump them all in one skill was pretty silly.  I mean, I thought D2's skill system was pretty retarded at the time I played it.  This isn't some revisionist history thing. 

And yeah, I do see that the retarded-on-its-own skill system did allow for some interesting itemization, definitely, so I don't disagree that D3 is probably missing something that D2 had.

But I mean, come on.  Next we'll be saying that rolling for your character's attributes over and over in Baldur's Gate was a good system.  That shit was dumb, it was noticeably dumb even at the time, and it is ok to say that it was dumb (and I loved the hell out of BG).


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 07, 2012, 10:31:47 AM
Oh come now, the bit where you had to save your points and not spend them until you could dump them all in one skill was pretty silly.  I mean, I thought D2's skill system was pretty retarded at the time I played it.  This isn't some revisionist history thing. 

And yeah, I do see that the retarded-on-its-own skill system did allow for some interesting itemization, definitely, so I don't disagree that D3 is probably missing something that D2 had.

But I mean, come on.  Next we'll be saying that rolling for your character's attributes over and over in Baldur's Gate was a good system.  That shit was dumb, it was noticeably dumb even at the time, and it is ok to say that it was dumb (and I loved the hell out of BG).

It may have been dumb, but the alternative we got was worse.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on July 07, 2012, 11:08:16 AM
Except you don't have to save skill points if there are respecs, so this is a fixed problem even in D2. Yet, they still decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And despite everyone saying "D2 at launch sucked" D3 isn't competing with Launch-D2, it's competing with D2:LoD v1.whatever in the same way that any MMO that launches isn't competing with Vanilla WoW but Cata WoW (see also: MMOs launching without LFG systems).


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 07, 2012, 01:32:24 PM
Except you don't have to save skill points if there are respecs, so this is a fixed problem even in D2. Yet, they still decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And despite everyone saying "D2 at launch sucked" D3 isn't competing with Launch-D2, it's competing with D2:LoD v1.whatever in the same way that any MMO that launches isn't competing with Vanilla WoW but Cata WoW (see also: MMOs launching without LFG systems).

That's a fine point, and I'm not at all trying to say D3 is perfect, or even not severely flawed.  While I am enjoying the hell out of the game, I do think it's got some severe problems that make me facepalm in dismay.  I'd even go so far as to say it is arguably not up to Blizzard's standards.

I was only responding to the idea that it's horribly offensive to point out that the D2 skill system (the one before the respecs, which was, let's be honest, the vast majority of D2's lifespan) was pretty fucked up.  In general I agree with most of the actual complaints people have about this game.  It's the glorifying of D2 that I tend to kind of eyeroll at a bit.  In general I think this is a vastly more enjoyable game to actually play "in the moment" (imho, of course), but I agree with the baby/bathwater comment.

Even with my limited D2 playtime I remember finding items more exciting.  For fuck's sake, I've played D3 for like 200 hours and have yet to see a single set item.  I have gotten around six legendaries!  All of them utter shite.

Edit:  I should probably clarify that by "enjoying the hell out of the game" I mean "enjoying the hell out of leveling each character to 60."  Inferno has been meh.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Merusk on July 07, 2012, 05:06:42 PM
Except you don't have to save skill points if there are respecs, so this is a fixed problem even in D2. Yet, they still decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And despite everyone saying "D2 at launch sucked" D3 isn't competing with Launch-D2, it's competing with D2:LoD v1.whatever in the same way that any MMO that launches isn't competing with Vanilla WoW but Cata WoW (see also: MMOs launching without LFG systems).

If you have respecs and points, why do you have the points?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 07, 2012, 05:48:34 PM
Except you don't have to save skill points if there are respecs, so this is a fixed problem even in D2. Yet, they still decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And despite everyone saying "D2 at launch sucked" D3 isn't competing with Launch-D2, it's competing with D2:LoD v1.whatever in the same way that any MMO that launches isn't competing with Vanilla WoW but Cata WoW (see also: MMOs launching without LFG systems).

If it is actually competing with D2 LoD v1.11 or whatever, it is clearly winning given their relative player populations.  :-P


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 07, 2012, 06:15:24 PM
Except you don't have to save skill points if there are respecs, so this is a fixed problem even in D2. Yet, they still decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And despite everyone saying "D2 at launch sucked" D3 isn't competing with Launch-D2, it's competing with D2:LoD v1.whatever in the same way that any MMO that launches isn't competing with Vanilla WoW but Cata WoW (see also: MMOs launching without LFG systems).

If you have respecs and points, why do you have the points?

My guess is some limited respecs.  Enough to fix mistakes/bad choices for the end game, then maybe a dropped item seems to be the thing that has come up several times in these threads.  I think the dropped respec token type thing is no good though.  They tried it in Hellgate: London and it was a mess of a system - granted it could be done BETTER, but at that point you're just haggling over the cost of respecs more than anything else.

Still, if I can make another guess, I'd say it is about investing deeply into one tree so that if you have a skill at the end of the tree it means you really are a "Whatever(Fire, Nova, Ice) sorceress" But  as you suggest, with respecs that is just as temporary as having no prereqs or trees - it is just a matter of how frequently you can do it, and how expensive it is to do it.  If any of the skill design in Diablo 3 is bad (and it is for sure on some skills) than it has less to do with the respec system than the skill design itself. Furthermore, it sounds like people feel like their characters aren't really "theirs." because the progression has no choice.   



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Arinon on July 07, 2012, 08:36:48 PM
I think the game would have been better with some sort of throttle, however small, on changing builds.  It's not like the actual nuts and bolts of the skill system are that complex.  You have six slots for shit to go.  Pick one you want to remove, fill an XP bar then bam, you can take that skill off and put whatever else you want in there.  Tune the time it takes to whatever seems reasonable, an hour or so?  At this point people are too used to having access to everything for any sort of limitation to go in though. 

Still think the game is pretty sweet but the current skill system kicks the game's longevity in the nuts.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 08, 2012, 06:12:38 AM
If you have respecs and points, why do you have the points?
Constraints.  SWG essentially had free respecs, but you were still limited in how you could spend them at any given time.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Margalis on July 08, 2012, 06:34:23 AM
I am a bit sympathetic to the idea that completely free respecs can hurt the game in some way. That does prevent you from having to commit to something and see it through through good times and bad, forcing you to get creative in those bad times. Nephalem Valor is a super-hacky and heavy-handed way of approximating that.

But Nephalem Valor is very clearly not an organic system that makes sense and more of an "oh shit, after observing people playing we see some flaw...hmm how can we put a band-aid on this?" It's more fixing a sprung leak than creating plumbing that doesn't leak in the first place.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 08, 2012, 07:18:01 AM
I am a bit sympathetic to the idea that completely free respecs can hurt the game in some way. That does prevent you from having to commit to something and see it through through good times and bad, forcing you to get creative in those bad times. Nephalem Valor is a super-hacky and heavy-handed way of approximating that.

But Nephalem Valor is very clearly not an organic system that makes sense and more of an "oh shit, after observing people playing we see some flaw...hmm how can we put a band-aid on this?" It's more fixing a sprung leak than creating plumbing that doesn't leak in the first place.

I think Nephalem Valor is much more them enforcing a particular way of playing the end game (clearing entire dungeons) instead of pure boss runs like Diablo 2 - which they openly said they didn't like as a design.

The respecing part of it was added in after the fact, perhaps as a bandaid for what you are talking about.  But I don't think they originally conceived it as a mechanic that had much to do with respeccing.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Soulflame on July 08, 2012, 07:33:10 AM
The problem with Blizzard not liking pure boss runs as a design is that I did like pure boss runs.  If I had fifteen minutes to kill, I could knock over Meph a few times, or Pindle a bunch, and have a shot at something good.  That isn't  the case with D3, and the 20+ minutes needed to develop NV just to farm a boss once is often enough to keep me from logging in.

I don't really have the desire, or often even the time to sit down for a dedicated hour clear of Act 1 Inferno.  Additionally, I don't have the gear to clear the act in an hour, nor can I afford it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 08, 2012, 07:52:49 AM
The problem with Blizzard not liking pure boss runs as a design is that I did like pure boss runs.  If I had fifteen minutes to kill, I could knock over Meph a few times, or Pindle a bunch, and have a shot at something good.  That isn't  the case with D3, and the 20+ minutes needed to develop NV just to farm a boss once is often enough to keep me from logging in.

I don't really have the desire, or often even the time to sit down for a dedicated hour clear of Act 1 Inferno.  Additionally, I don't have the gear to clear the act in an hour, nor can I afford it.

I actually agree.  I was worried about this before release, and it has definitely cut down the amount I play because I often have short breaks where in Diablo 2 I couldn't fit in a few runs, but in Diablo 3 I just don't have the time to actually build up to 5 NV.  I do actually enjoy doing the full runs when I have time, but I don't always actually have it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on July 08, 2012, 09:24:03 AM
Except you don't have to save skill points if there are respecs, so this is a fixed problem even in D2. Yet, they still decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And despite everyone saying "D2 at launch sucked" D3 isn't competing with Launch-D2, it's competing with D2:LoD v1.whatever in the same way that any MMO that launches isn't competing with Vanilla WoW but Cata WoW (see also: MMOs launching without LFG systems).

If you have respecs and points, why do you have the points?
So you can create a build that's more complex than "Pick six skills (2-4/class of which are mandatory) with their runes, pick 3 passives, go". Additionally, with limited respecs you're free to tweak your build or scrap it if you've gimped yourself, but less inclined to cover every build possible with a single class and therefore you have an incentive to actually play the game again. In D3 I've got the two classes that interest me to mid-Hell and I'm done. I could power through and at least get to Inferno but what's the point, an even sillier difficulty? There's no point in playing through as another Wizard because any build I wanted to try, I did while leveling up. There are other factors here (shitty itemization, static maps) but the skill system was a big part of my D2 experience.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Margalis on July 08, 2012, 06:30:45 PM
A lot of the decisions around the design of Diablo 3 seem centered around stopping the players from playing the "wrong" way - which is any way that Blizzard did not intend. Even in cases where the game is designed in such a way that the wrong way is entirely predictable and the most effective.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Shatter on July 09, 2012, 07:05:24 PM
A lot of the decisions around the design of Diablo 3 seem centered around stopping the players from playing the "wrong" way having fun

Fixed


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 09, 2012, 09:48:53 PM
I think the game would have been better with some sort of throttle, however small, on changing builds. 

Neph valor isnt enough?



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on July 09, 2012, 10:32:37 PM
A lot of the decisions around the design of Diablo 3 seem centered around stopping the players from playing the "wrong" way - which is any way that Blizzard did not intend. Even in cases where the game is designed in such a way that the wrong way is entirely predictable and the most effective.

You think they would have learnt from... oh what's that company's name that made WoW?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 10, 2012, 06:27:29 AM
Making a Diablo clone is hard.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Merusk on July 10, 2012, 07:46:23 AM
A lot of the decisions around the design of Diablo 3 seem centered around stopping the players from playing the "wrong" way - which is any way that Blizzard did not intend. Even in cases where the game is designed in such a way that the wrong way is entirely predictable and the most effective.

You think they would have learnt from... oh what's that company's name that made WoW?

You mean the one that completely fucked-up their last expansion and are now trying to shovel things out the door that might appease the disgruntled fan base that left?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 10, 2012, 07:49:07 AM
You mean the one that completely fucked-up their last expansion and are now trying to shovel things out the door that might appease the disgruntled fan base that left?

Still amazed more people weren't fired over Cataclysm. You'd think that a fuckup of that magnitude would cause somebody at the top to lose their job.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: 01101010 on July 10, 2012, 07:51:34 AM
A lot of the decisions around the design of Diablo 3 seem centered around stopping the players from playing the "wrong" way - which is any way that Blizzard did not intend. Even in cases where the game is designed in such a way that the wrong way is entirely predictable and the most effective.

You think they would have learnt from... oh what's that company's name that made WoW?

I believe that was Blizzard (pre-Activision).


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: schild on July 10, 2012, 08:12:16 AM
The core gameplay here, disconnected from the itemization, is light years beyond Diablo 2.

The itemization and flair bits in the environment (bookshelves, pots, etc) are absolutely shit compared to Diablo 2.

I love both games - unfortunately Diablo as a series is about the second bit more than the first bit. I think in time they can fix the second bit though.

That said, out of the gate, Diablo 2 was nigh unplayable. Buggy piece of rushed-out-the-door shit.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on July 10, 2012, 04:07:53 PM
A lot of the decisions around the design of Diablo 3 seem centered around stopping the players from playing the "wrong" way - which is any way that Blizzard did not intend. Even in cases where the game is designed in such a way that the wrong way is entirely predictable and the most effective.

You think they would have learnt from... oh what's that company's name that made WoW?

You mean the one that completely fucked-up their last expansion and are now trying to shovel things out the door that might appease the disgruntled fan base that left?

That was what I was trying to imply


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 10, 2012, 06:59:21 PM
I'm sure some people on this forum will want me lynched, but here we go:





Today was yet another 'patch' and still nothing is done about gold farming and botting. Sarkoth has remained untouched for well over a month.

I keep expecting to be banned for botting, yet it never happens. My bot literally runs 24x7, killing Sarkoth over and over again. My character has well over 100 million gold picked up (nothing any legit player could ever do). My character has remained logged in for close to 20 hours a day, every single day, for a month, and ONLY killed Sarkoth (nothing any legit player could ever do)

I started doing this because I figured "fuck it, the game isn't what I expected, might as well see how much money I can make by not playing" and I've passed over $600 bucks by simply buying items on the GAH and reselling on the RMAH. This has slowed down to a crawl recently because the prices of decent items has fucking skyrocketted. Between the AH bots and the massive inflation of gold prices, and the RMAH sales drying up it seems like I'm actually falling BEHIND other, more successful botters. My fucking BOT can't keep up with the gold inflation and all it does is farm gold...

I'm not sure what my point is, other than it's shocking to me how little Blizzard seems to care about botting and exploits in their game. You have AH bots snatching up every single poorly priced item and flipping it again. Bot farms running Sarkoth or Nightmare Azmodon reverse runs pulling 500k+ an hour and dumping a fuckload of gold into the economy. You have trade window exploits which remains unfixed (yet, they fixed it in D2...) and you have massively successful botters pulling in thousands using Blizzard's OWN RMAH. They're actually more successful now using Blizzard than they ever would be on their 3rd party sites...

I look on the popular botting/exploit forums and I see so many different bots. Ones for each class, different resolutions, Sarkoth, AH, leveling exploits, MF swap bots, trade expoit bots, bots that tap into the game and actually dynamicly kill shit, maphacks, insta-leave bots, etc etc etc. And these forums and threads have HUNDREDS of pages and thousands of views.

It's out of fucking control, man...


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: LK on July 10, 2012, 08:04:59 PM
 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 10, 2012, 08:12:29 PM
I think the real question here is how much of that $600 are you going to blow on the Steam sale?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 10, 2012, 08:32:38 PM
 :oh_i_see:

... well I still need to get Skyrim + the expansion. And portal 2. Torchlight 2. HL2 Episode 3. Plus whatever sweet deals rolls out.. since you asked...


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: KallDrexx on July 10, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
Today was yet another 'patch' and still nothing is done about gold farming and botting. Sarkoth has remained untouched for well over a month.

I was intriqued so I looked it up and found http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0zrntehf5s
lol


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 10, 2012, 11:04:32 PM
Well, if it's any comfort, waffel, you'll probably be banned eventually.  Usually the strategy is to wait to do a mass banning, in order to collect as many botting accounts as possible before alerting them that a given bot has been detected for banning.  It works better for banning bot accounts over time in much the same way as a virus with a long incubation time is much more dangerous than one with a short incubation time, even though the short one seems scarier and more dangerous at first glance.

That said, it does nothing to get the gold out of the economy, as you point out.  But it's not like there was anything salvageable about the AH to begin with.  The whole item game is a gigantic piece of shit.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 11, 2012, 07:50:10 AM
Unfortunately, it's compounding the problems they're having keeping the interest up of those who play legitimately.  It might be a good strategy when the game has been out for a while, but at this stage it's critical to try and be a little more pro-active.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Hutch on July 11, 2012, 07:57:46 AM
... and you have massively successful botters pulling in thousands using Blizzard's OWN RMAH. They're actually more successful now using Blizzard than they ever would be on their 3rd party sites...

Blizzard gets a cut of each transaction on the RMAH. So they may be taking the "it ain't broke" stance.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on July 11, 2012, 09:45:12 AM
I'm sure some people on this forum will want me lynched, but here we go:
<snip>
It's out of fucking control, man...

While I wouldn't do this myself, I don't put the blame on you for how broken Diablo 3 is. These things were predicted.

Blizzard made a broken game.

Their stance toward botting has never made sense to me. In WoW, I used to report every bot I came across. It would sometimes be weeks before the bot would disappear - as in several weeks, more than 3. How much "data" do they need to collect to see a bot? It's ridiculous. I don't buy Blizzard's explanations; I think they are full of shit. They simply do not care about botters much, and in D3, probably not at all. Botters enrich Blizzard.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 11, 2012, 10:12:54 AM
I'm sure some people on this forum will want me lynched, but here we go:
<snip>
It's out of fucking control, man...

While I wouldn't do this myself, I don't put the blame on you for how broken Diablo 3 is. These things were predicted.

Blizzard made a broken game.

Their stance toward botting has never made sense to me. In WoW, I used to report every bot I came across. It would sometimes be weeks before the bot would disappear - as in several weeks, more than 3. How much "data" do they need to collect to see a bot? It's ridiculous. I don't buy Blizzard's explanations; I think they are full of shit. They simply do not care about botters much, and in D3, probably not at all. Botters enrich Blizzard.

It isn't about confirming that it is a bot, it is about getting a big database of them and banning them all at once so that that the bannings don't alert other botters that the bot is being detected.    If they ban individually, people catch on and change the bots before they get detected.  Valve does the same thing with VAC.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 11, 2012, 10:41:19 AM
Most of the bots use AutoIT or Autohotkey. Most randomize just about everything, from sleep timers, to locations clicked on the screen (randomized in a small space, but not enough to throw the bot off course) and use imagescan to find items, locations, whatever else (it'll scan the screen at a set time and if it sees the orange color from a legandary item it clicks on it) They auto repair when broken gear is detected, auto stash and sell, and some even look sell all items that aren't ilvl 60+

They're getting pretty advanced, imo, because they're not being stopped. The creators and botters keep building off their code. If Sarkoth's location was randomized, moved, mobs placed in the way, or hell even straight up REMOVED the bot would need to be constantly updated which would scare off and stop the casual botters.

I'm hoping Blizzard has some grand plans in place to stop the botting. They are so many ideas they can do to at least slow it down. The only bot they cracked down on was the AH bot but only after a month of it being out there. The game limit change they sneaked in before was great. Most of the bot threads claimed it was the end, that it wasn't worth it anymore, etc etc. Yet Blizzard removed it and everyone rejoiced and fired up their bots again. Ahh well...


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 11, 2012, 10:45:38 AM
So why Sarkoth, waffel?

Do you just put on GF gear and pick up the gold? What's the take per kill? How is that one mob outriding everything else? I'm confused as to why it was isolated as a farm target.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 11, 2012, 10:55:50 AM
He drops a lot of gold with GF gear on.  He is close to a waypoint, runs are fast.  He is easy to kill even with GF gear on.

Each run takes < minute.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 11, 2012, 10:58:30 AM
Sarkoth is in act 1. He's very easy to get to because there is a quest/way point that spawns you near him. He's called the "hoarder of treasure" or something, and resides in the Dank Cellar (which has about a 55% spawn chance, used to be 100% before it got nerfed many patches ago)

He's farmed because he drops a ton of gold every kill (because he 'hoards' the treasure from the chest, you see...) With goldfind gear you can pull in between 2k-9k a kill. Ranged classes can kill him from the doorway before he even moves or attacks.

A failed run looks for the dank cellar, doesn't find it, ports to town, leaves the game, hits resume from the menu. A failed run at most is 15 seconds, less if you're a Wizard with teleport.
A successful run takes at most 30 seconds. He also drops blues/rares/legendaries/sets.

DH bots can do 300-500k an hour. Wizard bots can do 500k+ an hour.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 11, 2012, 12:02:34 PM
Interview

Quote
In threads that I've responded to in the past, there were several follow-up questions and suggestions which I kept seeing over and over again. Rather than go back to those older posts and respond individually, I thought I would round them all up and provide answers here.

Since these types of posts can draw a lot of attention, please try to keep your responses as civil as possible. In the end, I'm hoping this helps provide some developer insight into a few of the recurring questions from this forum.

Questions:

1) You said you're inherently okay with players stacking certain stats over others. If this is the case, why did you nerf IAS?
One of the biggest issues we discovered with IAS was that it actively limited build diversity. While IAS was pretty strong on its own, when coupled with certain gear and skill combinations, it simply became too alluring for a lot of players to ignore. So, instead of seeing an increase in gear and skill diversity over time, what we actually saw was more and more players shifting to IAS-focused builds almost exclusively. On a scale large, it was crippling experimentation and skill diversity.

A lot of players think we reduced the value of IAS because it made characters too powerful. While that's not a totally unreasonable conclusion to jump to, it's definitely not true. We don't think "doing a lot of damage" or "doing too much damage" is enough reason for us to nerf something outright. IAS was an outlier -- it's not that it made characters too powerful, but rather that it caused a few builds to become vastly superior to others. On top of that, it introduced a ton of bugs just due to how fast characters were attacking when stacked to its upper limits.

The initial iteration of IAS was flawed in many ways. So, in effort to promote skill diversity and remove several game-impacting bugs from the environment, we reduced the value overall. We're fairly happy with where IAS is right now, as well as skill diversity in general (though we're going to need to do some additional skill balancing to bring it up to where we want).

2) So, when are you going to nerf Critical Hit Chance and Critical Hit Damage affixes?
We've no plans to nerf +Crit Chance or +Crit Damage. While +Crit Chance and +Crit Damage are very strong right now, there's nothing inherently wrong with something being strong. As mentioned above, players doing too much damage is not enough reason for us to bring out the nerf bat. Neither affix is having a negative impact on build diversity (we're seeing a pretty good balance overall), and there aren't any technical issues with them being stacked to higher values. It's something we're keeping an eye on of course.

3) Why aren't monster affix combinations restricted in some way?
Monster affixes are actually grouped into categories and then restricted based on those categories (to a degree). Our restrictions aren't as tight as some players have suggested, but in the end we found that adding extra limitations often made Elite pack encounters very predictable and repetitive, which kind of went against our design goal for these types of monsters.

We know that not all players will see eye-to-eye with us on how these categories are organized, and we expect some criticism and disagreement, especially from such a passionate group of gamers. While we're happy with where affix combos are right now, we're open to feedback and especially constructive discussion. :)

Here are the categories:

Strong CC (Limit 1):
Knockback
Nightmarish
Vortex
Defensive (Limit 1):
Avenger
Extra Health
Health Link
Horde
Illusionist
Missile Dampening
Invulnerable Minions
Shielding
Vampiric
Aggressive (No Limit):
ArcaneEnchanted
Desecrator
Electrified
Fast
Fire Chains
Frozen
Jailer
Molten
Mortar
Plagued
Reflects Damage
Teleporter
Waller

4) Is Whimsyshire considered an Act I or Act IV zone?
It's considered an Act III/Act IV zone, depending on difficulty. The monsters in Hell are considered Hell - Act IV monsters, and the monsters in Inferno are considered Inferno - Act III/Act IV monsters. The drop rates buffs from June 28 affect the zone accordingly.

----

Suggestions:

1) Allow to gems to stack up to 100.
Totally reasonable request. We're looking into it!

(We originally set the stack size to 30 so it would fit in with the other "3" gem values. Now that it only requires 2 gems to combine into the next tier and the pattern has been broken, we've no issue increasing the base stack size. Good suggestion.)

2) Allow players to create multiple gems and items with just one click, if you have enough materials.
No plans right now to implement this kind of automated queuing for crafting.

3) Allow users to buy multiple health potions with one click.
Also a cool idea! We're looking into it.

4) Allow the Town Healer to heal your active follower too.
Ditto. We'll definitely consider this.

5) Add an option to block follower conversations.
Understandable annoyance, but no plans at this time to add in an option. Still good feedback!


I don't particularly have any issue with anything that was said, but it is pretty damned lame they are forcing me to sit there for 10 minutes and click "craft" every time I want to make a new gem.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: 01101010 on July 11, 2012, 12:47:30 PM

Quote

Questions:

1) You said you're inherently okay with players stacking certain stats over others. If this is the case, why did you nerf IAS?
One of the biggest issues we discovered with IAS was that it actively limited build diversity.

Maybe they would like to meet IAS's friend AllResist. I am sure they will have much to discuss.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 11, 2012, 12:49:29 PM
I was going to say the same thing about All Resist.

Also, the fact they don't restrict the Agressive Categories on elites is the PROBLEM.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 11, 2012, 01:21:59 PM
Most of the bots use AutoIT or Autohotkey.
I've been using AutoIt to automate some menial tasks at work, and updating old scripts for others.  It's a great little program.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 11, 2012, 01:25:15 PM
How does resist all restrict build diversity? It restricts *gear* diversity, but I don't see how it affects builds.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 11, 2012, 01:31:08 PM
How does resist all restrict build diversity? It restricts *gear* diversity, but I don't see how it affects builds.

Try and find an inferno barb that doesn't have the War Cry with the impunity rune on his bar.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 11, 2012, 02:11:21 PM
How does resist all restrict build diversity? It restricts *gear* diversity, but I don't see how it affects builds.

Try and find an inferno barb that doesn't have the War Cry with the impunity rune on his bar.

Or monks without 'one with everything'


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Hutch on July 11, 2012, 02:19:01 PM
How are Frozen and Jailer not "Strong CC"?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 11, 2012, 02:30:51 PM
How are Frozen and Jailer not "Strong CC"?


Wording?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 11, 2012, 03:18:30 PM
How are Frozen and Jailer not "Strong CC"?


They don't move you around uncontrollably.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Llyse on July 11, 2012, 05:33:24 PM
Yeah, I'm thankful for that post from waffel.

That's just the 10 ton anvil that's killed even logging in with my Hardcore characters and levelling, I got my moneys worth in time but somehow feel cheated because it wasn't as fun at the end as it could have been.

Onto The Secret World!


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 12, 2012, 07:59:41 AM
So um... apparently there is a new hack that is coming to light that allows you to purchase an item for its minimum bid, instead of it's buyout. There have been more and more reports about people putting an item up for say, 500,000gold minimum bid with NO buyout and having the item sell within 20 minutes.

The best part is, the hack works by editing two hex values: swapping the bid and buyout buttons.

I can't even imagine how much money whoever discovered this made before it started to go public, or how much money people are still making with it considering it's still active and not patched.

Blizzard... never ceases to amaze me.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 12, 2012, 08:08:56 AM
How the code could possibly written to allow for that...

... it's mind-boggling.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 12, 2012, 08:11:57 AM
How the code could possibly written to allow for that...

... it's mind-boggling.

So mind-boggling that I'm sorta skeptical, especially of the "button-switching" mechanism to allow it.  But hey, who knows.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 12, 2012, 08:15:32 AM
This is the same AH that allowed you to roll your PC clock time backwards to cancel an auction...


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 12, 2012, 09:07:06 AM
OK, random maintenance on a thursday is admittedly making me slightly less skeptical.

Edit:  Also, wow at that "turning back your clock" auction cancelling bug.  And yeah, I would have expected something like that would have been pretty obviously server-verified as well, so... god damn, man.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: MrHat on July 12, 2012, 09:15:49 AM
OK, random maintenance on a thursday is admittedly making me slightly less skeptical.

They shut down the AH even earlier.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: LK on July 12, 2012, 09:53:58 AM
 :awesome_for_real:

All this stuff is absolutely incredible.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on July 12, 2012, 10:18:31 AM
Remember when Blizzard meant "polish"?



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 12, 2012, 10:22:27 AM
Now it just means Polish.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Fabricated on July 12, 2012, 10:52:58 AM
lol, this game fucking sucks.

Everything that should be handled server side is handled by the client and the stuff that should be handled by the client is handled by the server.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 12, 2012, 10:53:49 AM
Heh.  Hehehe.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rendakor on July 12, 2012, 10:58:46 AM
How are Frozen and Jailer not "Strong CC"?


Wording?
Waller is another one that ought to be in that category.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Xanthippe on July 12, 2012, 11:01:47 AM
How are Frozen and Jailer not "Strong CC"?


Wording?
Waller is another one that ought to be in that category.

So you can still have a

Vortex, Vampiric, Teleporting, Waller, Jailer

which is just wrong.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rokal on July 12, 2012, 11:32:05 AM
This is why the game should have required a constant internet connection.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: koro on July 12, 2012, 12:31:39 PM
The best part is, the hack works by editing two hex values: swapping the bid and buyout buttons.

How is that supposed to do anything? From what I understand from what other people have told me (I'm not technically minded), swapping the bid and buyout buttons should do precisely nothing.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 12, 2012, 12:55:30 PM
It depends how they accomplish it.  Theoretically it should just be a change in graphics.  It sounds like they're full-on objects though, so by swapping the Bid for a Buyout, Clicking tells the server the player just put down enough to buy the item.

And as there is no server-side verification, it just accepts it as true.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 12, 2012, 01:10:39 PM
The only thing I can think of is that at one place in the code it is checking button ID, and in another place it's checking which element in some array it is, so that reordering them switches the second number and not the first.  And then on top of that, the server for some reason is able to be told something that makes it do something stupid.  I don't know.  I don't get it.  I can at least imagine how the clock-setting-back auction canceling one works, although it is crazy that the server didn't verify that it was an acceptable time to cancel an auction.

Edit:  Given the "clock setting back" stupidity, I'm guessing that maybe all that is happening is that switching the button order means it grays out the wrong button (probably the point where they aren't checking button ID, but rather button ordering), which lets you press what is actually the "buyout" button, allowing you to send a buyout request on an item that you shouldn't be able to.  And then their server has a horrible bug that obeys a buyout request for an item with no buyout, using (allegedly) the current bid price as the buyout price somehow.  I could believe that combination of bugs actually happening.  Not in a "forgivable" sense, but in a "I can imagine someone fucking up that bad" sense.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lightstalker on July 12, 2012, 01:23:26 PM
Effectively swapping IsEnabled values seems likely.  Client (or server) side validation could save them from allowing bid-buyouts of items with buyouts listed, but that (possible) validation path probably falls down when there is no buyout value set.

Lack of Server Side Validation was probably justified in the name of performance.   :uhrr:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ironwood on July 12, 2012, 01:43:01 PM
 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 12, 2012, 02:01:31 PM
And then their server has a horrible bug that obeys a buyout request for an item with no buyout, using (allegedly) the current bid price as the buyout price somehow.
Buyout (500k) > Buyout (0)

"Yep, 500k is more than nothing.  Sold!"


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ice Cream Emperor on July 12, 2012, 02:18:54 PM
So you can still have a

Vortex, Vampiric, Teleporting, Waller, Jailer

which is just wrong.

Wrong, but super easy to kill?

Okay, I guess not everyone is melee. But if every elite mob had that loadout I would probably be finished Inferno by now.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Hutch on July 12, 2012, 02:26:31 PM
So you can still have a

Vortex, Vampiric, Teleporting, Waller, Jailer

which is just wrong.

Wrong, but super easy to kill?

Okay, I guess not everyone is melee. But if every elite mob had that loadout I would probably be finished Inferno by now.


Instead, melee's get Vortex Desecrator Molten Waller Arcane, amirite.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Phred on July 12, 2012, 03:21:07 PM
This is the same AH that allowed you to roll your PC clock time backwards to cancel an auction...

Didn't that turn out to be bullshit? Much like this one probably is. Oh and the session hijacking too.




Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Tarami on July 12, 2012, 03:24:17 PM
Edit:  Given the "clock setting back" stupidity, I'm guessing that maybe all that is happening is that switching the button order means it grays out the wrong button (probably the point where they aren't checking button ID, but rather button ordering), which lets you press what is actually the "buyout" button, allowing you to send a buyout request on an item that you shouldn't be able to.  And then their server has a horrible bug that obeys a buyout request for an item with no buyout, using (allegedly) the current bid price as the buyout price somehow.  I could believe that combination of bugs actually happening.  Not in a "forgivable" sense, but in a "I can imagine someone fucking up that bad" sense.
I think what happens is that the AH protocol doesn't differentiate between buy outs and bids - a buy out is simply a bid the level of the buy out, then you indirectly win the auction because you reached the buy out. The client, when pressing buy out, checks the buy out, then places a bid for that amount - 0 gold. The AH server frontend compares that bid for 0 gold with the buy out - 0 gold, a match! It sends the transaction for sign-off to the master server by flagging the auction as expired. When the master server gets to that item in the queue, it checks the bid for the amount of money to transfer, since the bid is the going price - as mentioned, a buy out is just a bid for a specific amount. So the bid amount is transferred between the accounts and the item is sent to the buyer.

Simply, the reason it works is because you can place a bid for 0, which happens to be the buy out. If that weren't possible, you wouldn't be able to trick the system, since a buy out otherwise can't be set lower than the starting bid.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 12, 2012, 04:45:18 PM
This is the same AH that allowed you to roll your PC clock time backwards to cancel an auction...

Didn't that turn out to be bullshit? Much like this one probably is. Oh and the session hijacking too.




It was very, very real. I didn't think it was until I tried it. it was patched a few days later.


Also, gold selling is up and active on the RMAH for .25 cents per 100k


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 16, 2012, 05:11:28 AM
More hacky goodness, this time being able to see how many properties an UNID'd item has:

Quote
Start a chat line, in party, whatever. Link your item. Follow that immediately with two special characters, for example ëë. Then link the same item again (some of this might be extraneous but I know this works). Put the cursor in between the two ë's. Press delete three times. Instead of deleting the entire [Archon Armor] it will just delete the [ and it will expose the item code.
The item code is a bunch of numbers and gibberish, it probably means something, some of it is probably encrypted, but at the very minimum you can find a specific part just before the name that looks like this:
528:528:0:0:7:0
the 528 will be some random 3 digit number, but that 7 is what you're looking for. subtract 2 from that number, and this is how many properties your item has. In this case 5. EDITED BECAUSE TYPING IS HARD
You can expect that until this is patched, at least a decent percentage of items that are being sold UnID'd will be known to be not 6 property items and well, thats awful, so don't buy them. You can't do this from a link just in the trade chat from someone else.
As long as items don't change hands, this exploit does nothing, so lets try to keep it that way.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Diablo/comments/wmvr8/do_not_buy_unid_items_right_now_there_is/



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 16, 2012, 09:56:35 AM
And another:

Basically a scammer is able to trade 1 item but make it look like a stack of 100 in the trade window. So you go in thinking you're getting 100x of something (Firey Brimstone) but are left with 1.

This has also been around since release. Go go Blizzard!


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: LK on July 16, 2012, 01:04:05 PM
QA is not very good at looking for hacks in a game, and I shudder at the thought of expecting them to.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 16, 2012, 08:55:55 PM
An APPARENT item dupe has popped up, with the exact same bow being sold on the AH 10x. Same name, same stats, same everything:

The item in question was a ilevel 63 Revenant Bow Named Sovereign End, with +9 Maximum Damage, +255-507 Fire Damage, 11% ias, and 60% Crit damage. It's DPS was 1017.9.

They all sold within 10~ minutes, with a player claiming he was able to buy two and both were sent to his stash.  :popcorn:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 20, 2012, 08:12:22 AM
So Mike releases the letter to the public, telling the gamers they are working on stuff.

According to Mike the issues they want to fix are: Build diversity, Balance, Better Legendaries, Interface/Social Improvements, AH Improvements, and PvP

According to the players, the issues they want to fix are: Loot quality, Inferno Difficulty, Lack of Endgame, Bugs/Dupes, Inflation, AH requirements, and Bots.

Until that disconnect gets shored up, D3 isn't going to see any improvements.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on July 20, 2012, 08:45:37 AM
I think build diversity is actually huge. I know people online complain about inferno difficulty but I can assure you that there is a huge number of people who found a build they enjoyed playing and then were forced into something they did not want(tank barbarian) and it killed their desire to play.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 20, 2012, 09:22:53 AM
Add a better method to make games (descriptions, game names etc)
Vastly improve the chat functions of the game
Fix loot (crafting, legendaries, everyfuckingthing)
Create an alternate method of leveling/character progression to do at 60
Add a server without any AHs. On this same server create a ladder system similar to D2.

There, was that hard?


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Hoax on July 20, 2012, 10:04:53 AM
There's really only two things they need to work on, the whines about Inferno are stupid.

#1) AH use is mandatory. AKA: You don't farm for drops you farm for gold and things to sell on AH to buy your "drops".

#2) Ongoing balance preferably way less fucking nerfs to the things people are making work (except say venom hydra) and lots of buffs to the stuff that just doesn't serve any purpose starting with abilities and eventually getting to runes that aren't that good.

Most of this other shit is so unimportant compared to those two things that its hardly even worth mentioning. Although I think fixing #1 may require they look at the entire item/crafting/drops/legendaries/sets systems and get real smart about fixing shit.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Paelos on July 20, 2012, 10:30:08 AM
There's really only two things they need to work on, the whines about Inferno are stupid.

The whines about inferno are pretty valid actually. It's not fun and tuned to stupid things. Part of that is balance, part of that is loot, and part of it is that they put all the level 60 stuff in there.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 20, 2012, 11:25:34 AM
There's really only two things they need to work on, the whines about Inferno are stupid.

#1) AH use is mandatory. AKA: You don't farm for drops you farm for gold and things to sell on AH to buy your "drops".

#2) Ongoing balance preferably way less fucking nerfs to the things people are making work (except say venom hydra) and lots of buffs to the stuff that just doesn't serve any purpose starting with abilities and eventually getting to runes that aren't that good.

Most of this other shit is so unimportant compared to those two things that its hardly even worth mentioning. Although I think fixing #1 may require they look at the entire item/crafting/drops/legendaries/sets systems and get real smart about fixing shit.

What are "things to sell" if not drops.  Again, I'd say this end game is pretty much just like Diablo 2 in that you hoped for ANYTHING good, and then you traded it in for Stones of Jordan  and then bought the items you needed.   I don't disagree that the focus is TOO MUCH on gold farming, I agree with this criticism, but if you get something good enough to sell on the AH for a good chunk of change that IS your "drop."  Granted, I understand a lot of people here really enjoy using only items they or friends fine - fair enough - but that is practically an entirely different discussion.

Agree with number 2 whole heartedly.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Rokal on July 20, 2012, 02:37:36 PM
What are "things to sell" if not drops.  Again, I'd say this end game is pretty much just like Diablo 2 in that you hoped for ANYTHING good, and then you traded it in for Stones of Jordan  and then bought the items you needed.

I don't think as many people participated in the Diablo 2 barter economy as you believe did. Both you and Blizzard seem too focused on this fringe aspect of Diablo 2 to the detriment of everyone that never bothered with trading but decided to pick up Diablo 3. Using only drops you found or traded among friends seems to be the more common way people played Diablo 2, which makes sense when you consider that the trading community formed around websites and forums outside the game. Why would you bother seeking out an outside website to trade when you could easily progress through the game with only loot you found?

I don't want to buy upgrades, I want to find them by playing. I don't want it to take 200 or even 20 hours to find a mediocre upgrade either. At some point you will reach a gear level where farming for upgrades becomes inefficient and it's unlikely you'll find upgrades over what you are using through normal gameplay. This is where trading becomes the most practical way to play if you want to obtain further upgrades. In Diablo 3 this happens around level 10 because of under-leveled loot and the ease of the AH.

Making Legendaries more interesting is a nice change, but it's practically irrelevant if my options for finding said Legendary are a) playing for 200 hours in the hopes that the 1 legendary I get is useful or b) using the AH/trading. Their lengthy post doesn't even making it clear whether they understand why their loot system is so unappealing.

They've said that the item hunt wasn't as sustainable as they thought it would be for an 'end-game', but they haven't shown that they understand why that is. If Diablo 2 thrived for years with only the item hunt, why was the shelf life on Diablo 3's item hunt less than a month? This is apparently a question they did not want to ask themselves as they went on to talk about alternative end-game content instead of fixing the loot system that makes up their current end game.

I guess if I took 6-7 years to make Diablo 3's loot system I wouldn't be especially confident in my ability to fix it either.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Typhon on July 20, 2012, 03:48:39 PM
[...]Again, I'd say this end game is pretty much just like Diablo 2 in that you hoped for ANYTHING good, and then you traded it in for Stones of Jordan  and then bought the items you needed.   [...]

Big gap here is that the entire D3 game is like D2 endgame - you hope for ANYTHING good near your level throughout the entire game.  


And once you do get to D3 endgame, 'anything good' is largely defined by 1) a weapon with high DPS, 2) Armor with high Resist All.  Such diversity! So exciting!

Edit:  :raspberry: to Ingmar!


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 20, 2012, 03:49:43 PM
Buh? You definitely don't need resist all until the D3 endgame. In fact I would say the resist nonsense kicks in a lot earlier in D2.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 20, 2012, 04:02:59 PM

I don't think as many people participated in the Diablo 2 barter economy as you believe did.

This is basically the main thing these forums have taught me in the last few months. 


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Ingmar on July 20, 2012, 04:04:07 PM

I don't think as many people participated in the Diablo 2 barter economy as you believe did.

This is basically the main thing these forums have taught me in the last few months. 

I think just about everyone who played the game long term participated in it to some extent.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Hoax on July 20, 2012, 04:55:59 PM
You shouldn't try to beat HC Act2 Hell (realistically short of way overleveling you shouldn't go for Act2 NM on some classes) before you've invested heavily in the barter economy. That's pretty stupid and very different from D2. We're not talking about rare items to power rare and interesting builds here. We're talking about the gear check to make the most powerful and basic build be able to get through the content first run.

I still say the only legit Inferno whine I've heard is that the cc reduction is such a shit bandaid that renders half the abilities in the game useless. That is pretty stupid I'll agree and a sign of how little time Blizz spent playing this game. But again if they were working on making more skills useful I think they would come to that and fix it even if they weren't "fixing" inferno which basically means making it easy enough for the guy bitching about it to beat it.

The other half of the inferno whining seems to be classic WoW/mmo bullshit, bitching that X class is managing to beat content and demanding they nerf them. I hate what gamers have become.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Setanta on July 20, 2012, 06:46:18 PM

I don't think as many people participated in the Diablo 2 barter economy as you believe did.

This is basically the main thing these forums have taught me in the last few months. 

I think just about everyone who played the game long term participated in it to some extent.

I played it for 7 years (becoming more infrequent in the last) and still played it occasionally up until D3 release.

I didn't participate in the barter system, I liked getting the gear myself.

I like getting my drops and using them. I get no sense of achievement from buying/trading for them

I have a feeling I may not be in the minority with this.

Blizzard doesn't get this. Blizzard will never get it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: waffel on July 20, 2012, 06:52:51 PM
I played online for years, bartered, and had fun. I played single player, without cheats and /players 8'd, and only traded with friends and also had a lot of fun.

Options = good. Blizzard doesn't seem to understand this. "Play our way because the other ways just aren't fun"



Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Margalis on July 20, 2012, 09:03:08 PM
Again, I'd say this end game is pretty much just like Diablo 2 in that you hoped for ANYTHING good, and then you traded it in for Stones of Jordan  and then bought the items you needed. 

Out of all the people who bought Diablo 2 I imagine the number of people who got into bartering was in the 5-10% range at most.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Tebonas on July 20, 2012, 11:29:29 PM
I think just about everyone who played the game long term participated in it to some extent.

You and Blizzard. That doesn't make you right, though!

5+ years without a single Trade, either.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Lantyssa on July 21, 2012, 05:13:59 AM
I think just about everyone who played the game long term participated in it to some extent.
Nope, never.

I also don't think y'all realize how many people played single-player or LAN-only compared to online.  The lag and 3 month deletion policy wasn't worth it.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: apocrypha on July 21, 2012, 06:37:53 AM
I think just about everyone who played the game long term participated in it to some extent.

Played for years, never bartered once.

Every time I joined a game with strangers it was full of bots, pk'ers or douchebags. So I played 90% solo, 10% with friends, usually with /players 8 active. Did MF runs on Meph/Baal, kitted out multiple alts with sets & legendaries, never got anything really high-end but that was OK, I didn't need it to have fun. I did get a couple of drops that I then specifically made characters for, e.g. a spear (forgotten the name of it) that had a huge bonus to pierce I think, that I made a Javazon just to use it. There's no, none, zilch, nada gear like that in D3.

Blizzard seem to have forgotten every single lesson from WoW when making D3. I haven't played for a couple of weeks at least now and have no interest in returning, it's too late.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Malakili on July 21, 2012, 06:45:28 AM
never got anything really high-end but that was OK, I didn't need it to have fun. I did get a couple of drops that I then specifically made characters for, e.g. a spear (forgotten the name of it) that had a huge bonus to pierce I think, that I made a Javazon just to use it. There's no, none, zilch, nada gear like that in D3.


There are two separate issues here.  One being the need to barter or not, and one being itemization.   The first one is problematic in D3 more in my opinion because you have basically 0 chance to get anything worth while in anything but Inferno.  This is a real problem compared to D2, where you could get legitimate end game items as early as Nightmare Mephisto - maybe not the highest of the high end, but some really good stuff dropped off him, and pretty much anyone could farm him to some degree.

The second issue being that itemization in D3 is really boring compared to D2.  They've already said that they are working on this particularly in regards to Legendary items, so hopefully this improves over time.  This is also tied to respecs I think.  I too got a lot of replayability out of making brand new characters around items which I found but weren't ideal for my current build in that class.  This goes back to the respec discussion though.

In the end, I happy to be one of the lucky ones because I don't mind what Diablo 3 is.  I think it is fun to play, and Inferno doesn't bother me at all.  The economy is something I always did in D2 so in D3 it is just a more convenient version of how I always played.   That doesn't mean they can't improve D3, but I don't see myself quitting any time soon either.  I guess I'm just one of the lucky people who happens to be their target audience with what they did.


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Reg on July 21, 2012, 09:28:38 AM
Yes Malakill. I'm sure everyone has noticed by now that you REALLY, REALLY LIKE D3.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Blizzard's Community Relations
Post by: Abelian75 on July 21, 2012, 10:48:24 AM
I don't really think respecs would make people create characters just to use items they dropped as long as the AH exists (unless it was a BoA item or something).  With the AH, any item is just its value in gold, as there is no real effort involved in converting items to/from gold.  You might roll a character built around a certain item, but it wouldn't be getting the item that made you do that, it would be getting the amount of gold that that item costs (which might come from getting the item itself, or not).

I dunno, a near-perfect market like the AH provides really kills any interest I could ever have in items.  While they definitely should make legendaries better, all it really would mean to me is that there are cooler items to buy, and that orange drops get me more gold.  When I look at an item that drops, I don't ever care if it is good for me or not, I just care about what it is worth (ok, sure, there's a tiny amount of convenience when you don't have to pay the AH fees, but it has little effect on the way I approach the game, personally).

By far the most fun item-related thing I've done in this game was assembling the staff of herding.  And it wasn't even that fun, but it was SOMETHING item-related that mattered to me, and it's definitely because it was BoA.  It has no money value attached to it. (unless you feel like going out and finding someone to farm for you, I guess, which is way too much of a pain in the ass for me to ever even consider as an option that truly exists).

Sadly, I'm running out of ways to convince myself that BoP items aren't just plain awesome in multiplayer games (and christ, BoE at the very least).  I totally understand that some people like trading and bartering and playing the market and all that jazz, but man, for me, I just cannot find an item interesting if you can see hundreds of them on an AH.  Even if it costs more gold that I could ever hope to gather, it's just... so flavorless.  Beh.