Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[Raguel]

So what's the over/under that the old dude at the end of last episode was Skye's dad? 

[Velorath]

Remember when Velorath said that getting Thor onto the Avengers team for the movie would be really hard and require a lot of setup due to the way Thor ended, and I said he would just be on the team and there would maybe be one line of throw-away dialog like "lol we built a new space bridge" to explain it?*

I do.  

For fuck's sake. If a guy appears on the TV show and they want to use him in a movie in a different way they'll just change him in the movie. "Oh, we already met a guy named Scorch? Well, this is a different Scorch. Only so many wacky villain names to go around I guess!" Bam, done.

* Thread in question, oh, the actual point of contention I argued was with Iron Man being an active member, but the Thor stuff was also in there.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=19590.70

Again, if you're going to bring it up multiple times, you could at least try to get my point right.

It wasn't that they can't just dismiss stuff from previous movies with lines of dialogue, it's that I think it ultimately undermines their own writing when they do it and I think that point stands. Iron Man 2 and Thor aren't particularly great movies anyway so in the long run I can't get too up in arms about it, but even if Thor had been really good, Avengers would have pretty much neutered the end of it. When you know both of these characters are next going to appear in the Avengers I don't know why the logical course of action wasn't to write the movies in a way that facilitated them grouping up rather than doing the exact opposite. I also think having to handwave things away is why Thor barely had anything to do in Avengers even though he has the strongest connection to the villain.

[Ironwood]

Um.  I don't think you're right and, frankly, even if you are, it doesn't matter.

Which is what Margalis was saying, I suspect.


No-one gives a flying fuck about 'undermining their own writing' on a Blockbuster Summer Movie.  I really, really don't think you believe that anyone does.

I also disagree that ANYTHING in the Avengers neutered anything in Thor, even the pathos of being seperated from Earth.  It doesn't matter if five minutes later after the credits, they said 'Oh, hey, Earth.' 

Now, if you want to believe that watching Thor just makes you angry because you KNOW that the end that it ultimately doesn't matter then.... well, then I don't know what to do with you.  It's like someone complaining about Jason or Freddie or Saw and saying 'But it won't mean anything because he'll be back in the sequel.'   Well, duh...

[Khaldun]

I think you guys are both wrong in a way. When the sausage of a big franchise gets made, there are guys at the table who just say, "Eh, don't worry about next week's show, we have Ed Begley Jr. already cast as this guy Speed Demon, we can see if he gets good ratings and go from there" and there are guys at the table who say, "We think that you should be introducing Stilt-Man because of the possibilities for merchandising a new line of ladders" and there are guys at the table who say, "Hey, I'm very excited about the story possibilities that could come from introducing Misty Knight, but we need to think carefully about whether to introduce Iron Fist at the same time". They're all there at different moments, and they get a different share of the outcomes depending on all sorts of variables. You wouldn't have Guardians of the Galaxy coming out if the creatives didn't sometimes win a fight--I can't imagine your average cautious executive who is looking at Marvel's portfolio would say, "You know, our next big movie should be the space one with the talking raccoon and the big tree."

[jgsugden]

Explaning Thor's return in Avengers would have taken screen time and cost them major bucks to bring back Elba, Hopkins, etc...  However, when they gave us the quick expalnation in Avengers, it left things open for them to give a better explanation in Thor II - which I believe I've heard we'd be getting. 

Regardless, S.H.I.E.L.D. is being factored into movie planning and movie planning impacts S.H.I.E.L.D.  Whedon has been interviewed quite a bit about the development of both the series and the movies, and this is the general picture he has given:

1.) The general ideas of the movies going forward have been pitched, but are not fixed in stone.  When they put a movie or tv series on their radar (and Marvel has tentative plans stretching to 2024), they have an idea for a story, but they'll change it and plot out the ramifications as they put things into development.  As an example, Ultron was NOT the first plan for a villian in Avengers II, but Whedon pitched it during Avengers I development and the plan changed.

2.) He can find out which characters they have rights to very quickly - and Marvel avoids dealing in characters in the MCU to which there are rights issues.  For example, they had no plans for Punisher or Daredevil until the rights reverted, which means we won't get them soon in movie form.

3.) Movies trump TV.  If he has an idea for TV, he has to see if it is on the movie radar (that stretches to 2024, currently).  If it is, he can't use it.  If not, he can put a flag in it and use it in TV.

4.) Marvel wants the movies and TV series to feel like the same universe (which they're kind of failing at so far), which means they want to utilize guest stars, movie sets, and other assets to coordinate the universes and keep them feeling like the same.  I expect to see the MAoS team on the helicarrier at some time this season when it is available as a set.

This all comes from interviews where Whedon has flat out said this is the path

[Velorath]

Ironwood, our longest fucking threads on this subforum are people bitching about the writing in summer blockbuster movies. I'm not sure at what point "I think it would have been good for them to make sure all the movies flow together well since they've gone through the trouble to make a shared universe of films" became a controversial thought. Jesus, you nerdrage over Doctor Fucking Who, you don't really get to comment if I don't like that the last 10-15 minutes of Thor get undone by a line of dialogue in Avengers.

[Ironwood]

And what I say on that topic doesn't matter either.  You don't see that ?

[MediumHigh]

These are people who get confused easy. Their head exploded when it was announced that the Flash may be featured in Arrow.

Well obviously their going to use the same actors for the justice league movie, cause otherwise two different Flashes will confuse people and IT NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED OTHERWISE.

Non-Retards : Err it matters 8 dog shits in a public park if they use the Arrow version of the Flash, they're actually obligated to reintroduce him for film.

Well no, obviously the studio execs care about continuity!

Non-Retards : no they don't

But it'll confuse audiences

Non-Retards : no it won't

Yes it will because cause there will be 2 Flashes

Non-Retards : Yeah... ok... have fun with that....


Now it's like

"Well Marvel cares about continuity!"

Non-Idiots : "Here is like 3 examples when they didn't give a shit"

"But Josh Jesus Wheaten says..."

Non-Idiots : "Josh Hack can go fuck himself, there's like 10 reasons why the TV show means fuck all."

"But they wouldn't make the TV show if it had nothing to do with the avengers..."

Non-Idiots : "Never heard of ratings, or merchandising, or franchising, or anything that ends with "ings" have you?"

[jgsugden]

Arrow/Flash and the DC movies is a different situation.  They have no intention of aligning the movies and tv, just as the animated Avengers show is not in the same continuity as the movies (despite having imagery inspired by the movie universe).

Marvel has said they're aligning the movie and live action TV series - and have people dedicated to the task.  It is a priority.

Top priority?  No.  If there is an awesome story that required them to back the truck over continuity, they'd do it - just like they do in the comics.  However, they recognize the attraction to fans of a cohesive and consistent universe and they're trying to put it together.  Your 'non-idiots' are not factoring in the goal of Marvel and Disney here - cross promotion.  They want you to watch the movies because you want to see how it will impact the shows and watch the shows to see what is being set up in the movies.  They want the popularity of one to drive the other.  Right now, MAoS is not holding up the end of the bargain because the ratings are decent, but not Lost-ish. 

I think the first interesting situations will be seeing how Thor II impacts MAoS, and whether MAoS sets the stage for Cap II. 

[Merusk]

Ironwood, our longest fucking threads on this subforum are people bitching about the writing in summer blockbuster movies. I'm not sure at what point "I think it would have been good for them to make sure all the movies flow together well since they've gone through the trouble to make a shared universe of films" became a controversial thought. Jesus, you nerdrage over Doctor Fucking Who, you don't really get to comment if I don't like that the last 10-15 minutes of Thor get undone by a line of dialogue in Avengers.

Nerds and Geeks bitching about nerdy and geeky things should never, ever, EVER be considered a valid argument for anything, much less actually used.

People didn't give 2 shits about Colson returning for this series.  We get some "oh it's a magical place lines." and non-geeks are fine with it.

The ONLY people who care about continuity are those who hold all this shit too close to the heart.  The same ones who bitched about a different batman when Keaton was replaced, who bitched it's not going to be Bayle in S vs B and who gave two shits about midichlorians.

Just because movie makers use geek-universe material doesn't mean they give two shits about pleasing them.

[Evildrider]

WHAT BALE NO BE BATMAN!!!1111111   

[MediumHigh]

If they cared about continuity they would have kept Couslon dead. Shield would still be a secret organization instead of globe trotting UN task force shoving their bumper sticker on everything. I mean how does Tony Stark or Captain America or Thor not know that Couslon is still alive when half the world seen his face or has shitty phone cam vids of him doing superhero shit in public. How does Tony not know when Shield can be hacked by a homeless girl in a news van? Yeah the show already says fuck continuity because the show isn't about that. It's about drumming up geek interest in the Marvel Movie Universe because geeks are gullible idiots that will shell out cash and eyeballs to any loosely associated derivative and the non-geek public can stomach a few minutes of 80's action movie shitck since crap like Heroes and Torchwood made this type of thing popular a few years ago. It's the most expensive ad about absolutely nothing, which is fine cause the ad is currently paying for itself.  

[Evildrider]

Wait a comic book character came back from the dead!  Say it ain't so!  Also SHIELD hasn't been covert in the comics for a long time now.

The way some of you people bitch, I don't know why you even bother watching TV at all.

[MediumHigh]

It wouldn't make sense in Universe. Too important for his resurgence to be unnoticed but here he is flapping around in public and no one cares? Lolz.

[Margalis]

Velorath you've sort of lost the plot here.

What you think about the quality of the movies or the writing doesn't matter. We were discussing how Marvel is going to handle SHIELD, not how you would handle were you in charge. You care about these sorts of issues. That's fine. Marvel clearly doesn't care, at least not to the same extent.

I think Marvel will handle SHIELD in a way consistent with how they've been handling things - do whatever works for the show and movies that maximizes revenue while glossing over continuity issues.

They aren't going to kill Iron Man permanently on SHIELD or something crazy like that, but if they want something cool to happen in the movies that contradicts the show or recast a role or something they'll just do it.

[Evildrider]

How do we know Stark doesn't know?  Are they supposed to pop up a cut scene where Stark is looking at his computer and finds out?  Considering we don't even know if it is the real Coulson or whatever, it's stupid to worry about what the other Avengers will think about it.  It's totally in Nick Fury's wheelhouse to have lied to the Avengers about Coulson being dead.  The fallout for that lie hasn't come about yet and I doubt it's gonna happen on the show.  If it happens anywhere it'll be in Avengers 2.  

[MediumHigh]

They only brought back coulson because they can't afford to

1. All unknowns
2. Any of the human avengers
3. The internet went crazy when marvel released a coulson short, apparently focused groups, nerds, and soccer moms love this guy.

I only pointed him out because its an obvious example of marketing which is the real drive of this show.

[eldaec]

I originally assumed they were going to use Robin Howimetyourmother and that was why they'd brought her on to the Avengers. But I guess they'll have her take the film Coulson role.

Would have been cooler imo if they just kept using Coulson in the films - with no explanation whatsoever.

The Tahiti references started to grate about 20 minutes in on the pilot.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm not sure exactly what people are arguing about, as though the movies and the show are made by separate entities, they are not.

[jgsugden]

What is driving me mad are all the assumptions on this thread contradicted by interviews where Marvel and co. had no incentive to lie. I have a feeling that a number of people would feel rather foolish if they went back through this thread in June...

[MediumHigh]

I'm not sure exactly what people are arguing about, as though the movies and the show are made by separate entities, they are not.

The movies are made to cash in on billions of nerd dollars by making passable films.
The show is made to drum up interest in an over-saturated market by over-saturating the market.

[Ironwood]

  The same ones who bitched about a different batman when Keaton was replaced,

Wait, seriously ?  Who did that ?

[Sky]

Thanks, f13. Thanks for reminding me why I don't bother discussing tv and movies with you folks.

 

[Ironwood]

Is it because we're too highbrow ?

 

[Riggswolfe]

On Coulson:

Honestly, I never thought he was dead. He died off-screen and Fury blatantly used his death to motivate the team. I'm sort of surprised Stark fell for it but I think even he can get blinded by emotion. I suspect there will be a throwaway line in Avengers 2 where Stark says something to Fury like "You're a dick for lying about Coulson" and Fury will shrug and say "I'm a spy, lying is what I get paid for and besides, it worked didn't it?"

I am a little surprised we haven't had a scene where Coulson answers his mobile phone and says something like "Hey Stark?" *listens* "I got better, what can I say?" but that would be about as much as I'd expect from the TV show.

We're a few episodes in and so far the only character I am on the fence about is Skye. The actress just doesn't have the chutzpah to pull the role off. The scientists seemed to have calmed down in the last couple of episodes I've noticed and seem much less hyperactive. Ward (?) is growing on me now that we're a couple of more episodes in. He's still sort of the wooden statue of the team but I am hoping that is on purpose. Ming Wa? I quite like her character especially now that she seems to be getting back into more of an action role and less of a bitchy role. Coulson? 'nuff said.

I think the network guys are watching things and I wouldn't be surprised if we have some cast shakeups in Season 2. They'll probably add another character to bring in whatever element they feel is missing and I wouldn't be shocked if one of the scientist twins dies and Skye goes on the run because her past catches up with her or something.

[Sky]

Is it because we're too highbrow ?

 

If that's highbrow, I'm happy to be lowbrow. As if 'easily amused' is a bad thing 

[jgsugden]

The same ones who bitched about a different batman when Keaton was replaced,

Wait, seriously ?  Who did that ?

Back in the 90s - I did.  Of the Pre-Bale era, I still think Keaton was the best and bitched about it on message boards when they recast the role.  He was surprisingly good.

[Ironwood]

Oh dear.  Though this does highlight the point about differing opinions being valid;  I didn't like him and I hated Nicolson's Joker even more.

But I also thought Burton was entirely the wrong choice.  Years later, I got my happy on since apparently Chris Nolan was who I always wanted.

Ah well.

[Margalis]

What is driving me mad are all the assumptions on this thread contradicted by interviews where Marvel and co. had no incentive to lie. I have a feeling that a number of people would feel rather foolish if they went back through this thread in June...

What are they going to say in interviews? That SHIELD is a creatively bankrupt product that exists just to be another form of movie merchandising, and that what happens in SHIELD isn't actually all the relevant and that the tie-ins are mostly limited to random asides and name drops? Of course they're going to say that the show is integral to the movies, because otherwise people wouldn't be excited about it.

I really don't get how on one hand someone like Velorath can complain about how the different movies don't link up properly, but at the same time be convinced that the relationship between the TV show and the movies will be handled very thoughtfully. If Marvel doesn't treat their movies like that, which are worth billions of dollars a year, I don't see why they'd treat a fairly irrelevant-by-comparison TV show like that.

And yeah, there's nothing to say that if someone writing a movie doesn't like the way a character was depicted in the TV show that they can't change the character, but if they can start handwaving away anything that's done in the show then why even bother with the show at that point anyway? Is it really all that interesting that they introduced Graviton on the show if he shows up in a movie later with as a completely different character?

The SHIELD series started with a giant handwave, Coulson. As you've noted yourself, so did Avengers regarding Thor (was stuck on Asgard), Iron Man (was interested only in being an advisor) and Hulk (off in some remote corner of the world, different actor) You even thought it might be a problem with how Captain America was integrated into the present. All of that was handled with handwaves.

Where are the Avengers during the events of IM3? Another handwave. Where will they be during Thor 2? Probably another handwave. Didn't Loki like float off into space at the end of Thor or something? (I honestly don't remember)

Why bother with the show? $$$$

The pilot was essentially guaranteed to get huge ratings, and without a monumental plummet you'd expect most of the first season to get at least decent ratings. It was literally a can't-miss proposition, there was no way the first few episodes were going to bomb. From a business perspective it would be stupid not to try it.

Right now the show has the same number of people watching it as The Biggest Loser. If someone has an idea for a Graviton movie and Marvel movies are still worth billions of dollars each there's no way in hell his appearance on a show slightly more popular than The Good Wife will be allowed to derail that.

[Ironwood]

On a note unrelated note, I started watching this.  I've missed the pilot, so I started straight at Episode Two, a fact that didn't seem to matter.

I thought it wasn't hugely awful, just mediocre and the Wife fell asleep.

So there's that.   I truly suspect that this is the start and end of my contribution to talking about the show though.  It was simply...bland.

[eldaec]

My SO likes this.

Though I suspect she sees it as an opportunity to be nice about my interest in manchild culture without having to ruin an evening out watching Star Trek.

[Merusk]

Hey, that's what I did instead of watching this last night.  Didn't realize BBCA ran episodes at 8pm.  Got to watch the whole Klingon Civil War arc again for the first time in 15 years.

Which really made me laugh.  Not for the GFX but for the ridiculousness of the plan to catch the Romulans.

Still a better evening than SHIELD. 

[jgsugden]

For the haters: We're 5 episodes in.  Why are you still here?

I'm not encouraging you to leave this thread - I'm just curious why you're wasting time talking about / watching a show you hate?  I don't go on the true procedural (yeah, I know there is a faux procedural aspect to MAoS) and reality TV threads to discuss that crap.

[Ironwood]

We're hoping for gifs of the girl in her knick knacks.

But seriously, don't ask me, I'm only one episode in.  After some more thought, it seems to me that the characters are acting like they're SEEN Avengers, rather than it being something that happened.  I was giggling about it today.

[Margalis]

For the haters: We're 5 episodes in.  Why are you still here?

I watched a couple episodes and stopped, then I came back because I kept reading that the show had gotten better.

I would like a good Marvel show. This just isn't it.