Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)

[Merusk]

I don't often agree with Margalis but he's right here, as is Marvel.  People aren't going to see <big name actor> in a <big name director> movie. They're going to see a Marvel movie about a Marvel IP.

So long as Marvel keeps up with a good quality of directors, actors and writers that's enough to continue producing the same quality they have been they'll be in a good spot.  So long as the public isn't tired of superheroes.  The next movie could be put out with a lead actor who's a guy whose only credit are Downy commercials and as long as he's not incompetent and able to get in to character it'll be good.  How quickly we've forgotten the "Who?" of Chris Hemsworth.

[Velorath]

RDJ got paid so much because marvel/disney needed him badly, he is the reason they have this movie empire.  They are sorta stuck in a weird place now though, people know marvel movies are big so they are going to expect big paychecks if they are an established actor/director and marvel is going to be reluctant.  Also the bigger name director the more control they will want but the better marvel does the less control they will want to give.  However if they can't secure big names behind their movies, the quality will definitely suffer.

As others have said, they don't need big name actors or directors, just look at the people involved in the Winter Soldier. The Russos' prior directing experience outside of TV was "You, Me, and Dupree". The guys the wrote the screenplay had pretty much only done the Narnia movies before that. Even Chris Evans didn't have a huge amount of success prior to doing these movies. James Gunn, the guy who wrote and directed Guardians of the Galaxy doesn't exactly have a stellar resume either.

Hell, it's not even like Edgar Wright was a big name director they needed to bend over backwards to hold onto. His highest grossing movie was Hot Fuzz which made $80 million worldwide. If I was one of the Marvel execs I'd probably be a bit worried that Ant Man would end up being another great Edgar Wright movie that nobody watched.

[Lakov_Sanite]

These movies don't need "big name" directors. Few movies do. Look at who is directing blockbusters these days - you have Michael Bay, then a bunch of people you've never heard of. Godzilla is Gareth Edwards. Captain America is the Russo brothers.

What these sorts of movies needs is a professional, competent steward. The Marvel movies with big-name talent behind them have been no better than the others. (I'm thinking specifically of Iron Man 3 and Thor - I couldn't even watch Iron Man 3, first Marvel movie I just turned off) Much of the movies are determined before there is even a script written. That's just the nature of these sorts of films.

If Marvel was aiming for high art then this might be an issue, but Marvel is producing people-pleasing consumer goods.

Counterpoint, Nolan-batman

[Khaldun]

They need AT LEAST some range of aesthetics/directorial styles/approaches. A house style for every character, every movie, will get this killed immediately. I can see one "house Marvel" movie a year, not five. But five different movies in style and theme that happen to feature Marvel characters who might someday interact? I'm in.

[Evildrider]

James Gunn posted this on his facebook page about the whole thing:



"Sometimes you have friends in a relationship. You love each of them dearly as individuals and think they're amazing people. When they talk to you about their troubles, you do everything you can to support them, to keep them together, because if you love them both so much doesn't it make sense they should love each other?

But little by little you realize, at heart, they aren't meant to be together - not because there's anything wrong with either of them, but they just don't have personalities that mesh in a comfortable way. They don't make each other happy. Although it's sad to see them split, when they do, you're surprisingly relieved, and excited to see where their lives take them next.

It's easy to try to make one party "right" and another party "wrong" when a breakup happens, but it often isn't that simple. Or perhaps it's even more simple than that - not everyone belongs in a relationship together. It doesn't mean they're not wonderful people.

And that's true of both Edgar Wright and Marvel. One of them isn't a person, but I think you get what I mean."

[Evildrider]

Word going around that Josh Brolin is "voicing" Thanos.  Which prolly means he's gonna be CGI Hulk-style.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Word going around that Josh Brolin is "voicing" Thanos.  Which prolly means he's gonna be CGI Hulk-style.

I'm very much ok with this.  Thanos not looking like the huge fucking monster he is would bug me.

[jgsugden]

Just an intersting conspiracy theory....

Bleeding Cool has a couple articles up that pretty much accuse Marvel of putting the characters they do not control in the movies in the can. 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/05/29/would-marvel-really-cancel-fantastic-four-to-snub-fox//
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/05/23/reboots-guardians-and-no-more-mutants/

I noted that the decision to replace Peter Parker with Doc Ock as Spider-man around the times of the new movies was an interesting choice....

[Margalis]

The comics buying audience is so small these days that what Marvel does with its comics is pretty much irrelevant. The comics don't drive the movies and the movie successes don't rub off onto the comics.

The role of the comics when it comes to the movies is to build awareness and establish stories over a period of decades. Turning Peter Parker into Doc Ock for a year makes absolutely no difference. 99% of people watching the movies have no idea wtf is going on in the comics.

The FF has been considered a weak, troubled book for a very long time. The general consensus among comics pundits is that the series just doesn't work any more.

As far as leaving mutants off of covers and such - there has been a lot more crossover with X-Men and Avengers recently. There is a book that was about the Avengers and X-Men teaming up, and Wolverine was an Avenger. I think Spider-Man has also been more actively involved with the Avengers. So I don't buy that Marvel is trying to bury the Fox/Sony owned properties.

[Evildrider]

I don't think Marvel cares too much.  Even if they got the properties back tomorrow, they already have a full plate with their current line up.

[jgsugden]

I don't think Marvel cares too much.  Even if they got the properties back tomorrow, they already have a full plate with their current line up.

I'd strongly disagree.  If a magic wand was waved and they received the Fantastic Four, X-men and Spider-man rights back today, Marvel would be tearing up the plans they have spread out on their walls and looking for how they could incorporate those characters into their stable as quickly as possible.  If Spider-man reverted today, we'd see a Marvel run Spider-man on screen by 2019 - and yes, that is factoring in the very strong burn out factor for the overutilized character. 

[Fordel]

Spider-man sure, but the FF? Nah.

[Evildrider]

I don't think Marvel cares too much.  Even if they got the properties back tomorrow, they already have a full plate with their current line up.

I'd strongly disagree.  If a magic wand was waved and they received the Fantastic Four, X-men and Spider-man rights back today, Marvel would be tearing up the plans they have spread out on their walls and looking for how they could incorporate those characters into their stable as quickly as possible.  If Spider-man reverted today, we'd see a Marvel run Spider-man on screen by 2019 - and yes, that is factoring in the very strong burn out factor for the overutilized character. 

No offense but that doesn't sound like the Marvel Studios we have now.  Yes they would want them back, but why shoehorn them in right away.  Most of the viewing public wouldn't look at it as Marvel making their own Spidey movie.  It would be more like, Jesus Christ.. the third Spidey Reboot in 20 years? 

They would be better off doing what they are doing now, and then maybe in 10 years busting out another Spidey/X-men.  As popular as Spidey and the X-Men are.  They are making bank branding out new characters and they have faith with movie goers to keep doing that.  And seriously.. I am more than happy watching the Avengers, their solo movies, and upcoming things like Guardians then I am the other Marvel movies right now.

[Lantyssa]

They wouldn't need to do a full reboot.  Just let them cameo in other movies to establish they are around.

[SurfD]

They wouldn't need to do a full reboot.  Just let them cameo in other movies to establish they are around.

Exactly this.   Having Peter Parker show up at a Tony Stark press conference to take photos for the Bugle, or name dropping / image dropping Exaviour's School for Gifted Youngsters / Baxter Building into upcoming movies would go a long way to easily establishing the existance of various people into the MCU without needing to throw out another character movie.

[UnSub]

Spider-man sure, but the FF? Nah.

Given that there are suggestions that the Inhumans are going to be added to the film stable, I'm pretty certain that Marvel would prioritise the Fantastic Four's inclusion if they could.

[UnSub]

That all somewhat conveniently skips over the fact that RDJ has been one of, if not the highest paid actor in recent years thanks mainly to playing Iron Man.

That's true, but only because he got in on the ground floor. He's the exception who got a better deal around Marvel needing him to play Iron Man and to act as the lynchpin for buiding up an eventual Avengers movie.

When Marvel’s Iron Man grossed a surprising $585 million worldwide in 2008, Downey’s reps at CAA and the Hansen Jacobson law firm renegotiated a deal to include what multiple sources say is a slice of Marvel’s revenue from future movies in which he plays Iron Man (one source puts it in the 5 percent to 7 percent range; another source disputes the percentage. Marvel and Downey’s reps declined comment).

As Marvel launched other hero pics that would lead up to Avengers, the studio struck hard bargains. Two sources say Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans, Jeremy Renner and Mark Ruffalo all signed on for small upfront fees and ultimately will make about $2 million to $3 million on Avengers with bonuses. Samuel L. Jackson and Scarlett Johansson, who signed deals to pop up in several Marvel movies, are said to be making about twice that for Avengers with bonuses.

In contrast, Downey picked up US$50m+ from "The Avengers". And then there's the talk that he renegotiated further after "Iron Man 3" when he was out of contract.

Yes, I know - I'd love to make US$2m from a single project too. But it's in context, RDJ is the only actor who's really making serious dollars from the Marvel films. Once Marvel Studios showed the films could be a success, they've played hardball with everyone else.

Which is working for now. But it also means that actors aren't likely to have much loyalty to Marvel Studios when it comes to contract renegotiation. Meanwhile directors (who get paid less than that) are finding that Marvel is increasingly binding their hands in terms of what they can do, which makes signing on to the pain of a blockbuster film even less worthwhile.

[Lantyssa]

Though now that those actors are known for the roles, their next contracts can be tougher negotiations.

[Maven]

They're surely prepared for finding replacement actors for their characters, the question is whether they are going to do a piecemeal strategy or a clean slate one. I suspect the former because it would be bad business to bind yourself to the entire group of actors.

Downey's going to be the first one to get too old for the role (or have him acting as Tony and letting CGI take care of the action). We'll see what happens after Avengers 2 -- if Downey stars in an Iron Man 4, I expect him for Avengers 3, and that'll probably be it for him.

Downey did make an amazing deal and profited immensely from it.

[eldaec]

When the multi film deals end Disney has plenty of other characters they can use instead, not even Iron Man has to be in every avengers episode. And honestly, who gives a fuck about Hawkeye?

For the actors the advantage of doing these movies is building their recognition levels so they rise up the pecking order for other movies. None were on the A List for pay before avengers, abd Downey only gets paid so highly because they didn't lock him in at the start.

[HaemishM]

For the actors the advantage of doing these movies is building their recognition levels so they rise up the pecking order for other movies. None were on the A List for pay before avengers, abd Downey only gets paid so highly because they didn't lock him in at the start.

This. The actors will do their 2-3 movies, come out of it as bankable stars or at least as big enough names that they get plenty of other work and be a little richer in the bargain. Why wouldn't actors sign on for this? It's the perfect career move.

As for directors, there's no reason for an up and coming director NOT to do these films. Edgar Wright unfortunately doesn't NEED to do them - he's made a career off of smaller budget movies with more creative control. For guys that don't have that, taking a job on a Marvel movie means they'll likely get paid AND get more work either from Marvel or somewhere else because they were involved with a big budget success. Until the box office magic goes away (and it doesn't really show any signs of letting up for at least 2-3 more years), it's great work if you can get it.

[MahrinSkel]

They're surely prepared for finding replacement actors for their characters, the question is whether they are going to do a piecemeal strategy or a clean slate one. I suspect the former because it would be bad business to bind yourself to the entire group of actors.

Downey's going to be the first one to get too old for the role (or have him acting as Tony and letting CGI take care of the action). We'll see what happens after Avengers 2 -- if Downey stars in an Iron Man 4, I expect him for Avengers 3, and that'll probably be it for him.

Downey did make an amazing deal and profited immensely from it.

He also did an amazing job, and Marvel profited immensely from it.  You could easily argue that the whole Marvel master plan has only worked because RDJ's Iron Man was such an awesome character, people were willing to transfer that perception to the rest of the stable.

Look at Thor and Captain America's first movies, or either of the attempts at Hulk.  Without RDJ knocking it out of the park, would we even be having this conversation?  Or would we be talking about how it would be cool if they stopped making one-off superhero movies and tied together the whole mileau, like X-Men but with more than just Wolverine getting a solo turn?

--Dave

[Ironwood]

Er, every time I hear people comparing Thor and Cap poorly to Iron Man, I really, really wonder what the fuck.

Both Thor and Iron Man were fantastic translations of comic guff to a mainstream audience.  I would argue that both the leads were just as good as RDJ, frankly, who really only had to play himself.  Again.

Hulk, of course, differs wildly and is a fair target.

[Teleku]

I actually liked the second hulk movie.  Not sure why it gets so much flak.  I mean, it wasn't like it was a really great movie or anything, but it also did a good job of channeling 'comic book hulk' onto the screen, and I mostly had fun following along.

[Ironwood]

Yes, but  it was entirely confused in the focus, mostly due to the first one.  Also, Abomination wasn't really all that interesting really.

[UnSub]

Er, every time I hear people comparing Thor and Cap poorly to Iron Man, I really, really wonder what the fuck.

I find both "Thor" and "Captain America" to be very thin films, at least in terms of keeping my interest. I can certainly pick at "Iron Man" but RDJ and Jeff Bridges make that film a lot more interesting.

Marvel Studios' current strategy is great in the short term, and they've proved it works. Will they really be able to keep making films 10+ years into the future if they keep it up? I'm not sure they will. As I said, it reminds me of how they used to treat their comic book staff - "Screw you guys, you're work for hire, no-one cares who writes and inks Spider-Man provided the comics keep coming out." It's not a great way to keep talent on board.

OTOH, I do see them basically building in 'back-ups' for their characters. RDJ steps out, Don Cheadle can be War Machine in the Avengers. Chris Evans trying to push harder on a deal? Sebastian Stan can take over.

[eldaec]

Er, every time I hear people comparing Thor and Cap poorly to Iron Man, I really, really wonder what the fuck.

This.

And also, given everyone has rightly pointed out that IM2, IM3, and Thor 2 were all somewhere between not great and terrible, if you didn't like Captain America and Thor, you'd basically be saying Marvel have made 2 or 3 good films from 8 attempts.

[Teleku]

People have been pointing out that Thor 2 wasn't very good?

[UnSub]

The only way to solve this will be for everyone to list out which Marvel films they liked and which ones they didn't, and eventually we'll come to an amicable consensus.

[Tannhauser]

*plants his flag* I like 'em all!  Come at me bro's!

[eldaec]

A > IM > T > CA > CA2 >>>>>> IM3 > IM2 > T2

[Lakov_Sanite]

...wut?

[Ironwood]

The only way to solve this will be for everyone to list out which Marvel films they liked and which ones they didn't, and eventually we'll come to an amicable consensus.

See, that's actually kind of my point.  Not a lot of people quote stats or box office or bums on seats or anything tangible.  It's usually 'I didn't like it as much' which, in the grand scheme of things, means fuckall.  Sure, none of the other stats mean much either (see:  Star Wars), but at least it attempts to compare like for like.

I would actually argue that both Thor and Cap were much more IMPORTANT films for the Avengers setup than Iron Man 1 or 2 ever was, since they had stuff that tied directly into the story, but whatever.  People LIKE RDJ despite his somewhat average acting chops on display in the Marvel films and that counts for more to most.  I didn't find Thor to be 'thin' at all, coming at it, as it did, in the Shakespearean Mould and I thought that for what should have been utter bilge, Captain America ended up being far cleverer and MUCH more endearing than one could ever hope for.  Also, everyone involved took it Seriously, which has helped every single Marvel Movie in the new mould.

If you look at the DC attempts and what the 'real' people have said off camera, you really get the feeling that the reason they Can't seem to do it, versus Marvel 'yes we can' is simply due to that fact ;  They hire people who want to do it Seriously, as opposed to the 'Hey, who here's been laid' crowd at DC.

Though if we're going to go on personal preference on actors, I would posit that putting that horrendous bitch in as Pepper Potts pretty much ruined all the Iron Man movies and Avengers.  

[Typhon]

Liked:                                         
Hell Yeah!: A,  IM, T
Yeah!: CA, CA2
Worth seeing in the movies:  T2
Worth seeing: IM2, IM3

Didn't Like:
Doh:
WTF?!:

[eldaec]

Also, everyone involved took it Seriously, which has helped every single Marvel Movie in the new mould.

IM3?