SWTOR

[Sobelius]

http://torwars.com/2011/09/19/torwars-interview-swtors-damion-schubert-reveals-new-game-details/

That being said, some of the ideas that were planned for post-launch got raised in priority, based on feedback and metrics from our testing.

Emphasis mine -- he was just clarifying that there were things they had punted to post-release that they were able to get into launch. Don't see the need to get snarky on him -- it wasn't like he was claiming these were amazing new features in SWTOR.  A dressing room and a LFG tool != mouse look in an FPS.

Translating the last paragraph from "vague speak" into English:

"We're making the last rounds of feature keeps/cuts for launch."
"We're looking to keep things that have a big impact but low coding/testing time cost."
"We want to get this game shipped as soon as possible."


Edit to add: I respect the tight lip Bioware is keeping with regard to stuff they are not 99% sure will be in the release. Nothing worse than some idiot producer or program manager or business/marketing/sales type going out and committing a dev team to something that may not be true and may adversely impact the product and/or schedule. I think that shows respect for both the devs/QA as well as respect for the customer.



 

[Sky]

While I'm not going to compare the team to Trion, Rift did launch with quite a few things still in the oven. However, Trion bangs out updates like a meth lab in Oakland. Rumor has it BWA is....more sedate.

[luckton]

While I'm not going to compare the team to Trion, Rift did launch with quite a few things still in the oven. However, Trion bangs out updates like a meth lab in Oakland. Rumor has it BWA is....more sedate.

This is because Trion's dev team is a mesh of current-gen MMO developers who've been around the block once or twice (in some cases more).  BWA is part-offline games and part-'we had one golden hit that set some standards, so we don't think we need to change a goddamn thing (read: The Mythic part)'.   

Unsurprisingly, if enough people get introduced to a feature that's hot enough to be considered a standard creature comfort, it's expected to be there from any game post-introduction of that feature, and they don't give a crap about how the dev time for the future game pre-dates the feature's introduction time.  That's why this:

That's like a developer making an FPS and saying, "based on player feedback in the beta, we decided to add mouselook sooner."

...is a valid argument, IMO.  If a rag-tag dev team like Trion can boost shit out with what little capital they have, stuff like the above should be getting kicked out at the speed I can get a raktajino out a replicator from EA.

[UnSub]

Remember, Trion is (apparently) heavily staffed by console developers, who learn they deliver on-time and on-budget or the game gets cancelled and everyone gets fired.

BioWare AUSTIN is heavily staffed with PC MMO developers, who are often able to keep a project going and people interested on the grounds of MIRACLE PATCH.

[luckton]

Remember, Trion is (apparently) heavily staffed by console developers, who learn they deliver on-time and on-budget or the game gets cancelled and everyone gets fired.

BioWare AUSTIN is heavily staffed with PC MMO developers, who are often able to keep a project going and people interested on the grounds of MIRACLE PATCH.

So bring some of the EA Sports devs over.  I'm sure the Madden crew could kick out a fully fleshed and balanced Hutt-Ball feature in two weeks 

My point is, EA's the fucking Borg of gaming.  Divide up your crew into teams however you want, but they're all still working for one CEO.  If they were serious about this shit, they could easily move some assets around.

Besides, if E&B and WAR proved anything to EA, it's that miracle patches only work if you get them in before you start charging people to play.

[Sky]

If a rag-tag dev team like Trion can boost shit out with what little capital they have

I do like the idea of putting some Madden guys on the huttball.

[Mosesandstick]

Adding more people isn't necessarily going to fix the problem.

[luckton]

Adding more people isn't necessarily going to fix the problem.

True...you still have 1-3 people at the top who dictate their interpretation of 'The Vision'.  And it's nice to see, based on the article, that their vision can be swayed.  Still, some of those things are just, I dunno, expected.  You don't try to take on the 800-lbs gorilla without at least being able to do what he can do and then trying to do it better.

Edit: Elaborating...for instance, I just assumed, up until reading this article, that the things mentioned (armor preview, target marking, LFG tools) were already in.  I think most people would think that too.  To have them come out 'now' and say "oh by the way, we just added ice to the ice planet that didn't have ice before" is a little  .

[sam, an eggplant]

Adding more people isn't necessarily going to fix the problem.

Yes, the ol' mythical man-month. Thing is, if you don't place high value on consistency, adding headcount can make a difference, and I would argue that the PvP game feeling different than the PvE isn't such a bad thing. The traditional problem is that it's hard to hire competent people, but EA has an enormous stable to draw from. They could repurpose an entire studio to developing SWTOR PvP content or the space combat minigame, if they saw the need.

[Lucas]

All I took from that article was:

Not ready to talk about this yet.

What did you expect? They're still in pre-alpha, after all.......

Hey wait...Where is your post...

Oh wait, it was in the previous page, I thought it was on this one 

[Shatter]

No reason any MMO in this day should launch without a dressing room feature and LFG tool from day 1, those should be considered basics and mandatory at launch. 

[Kirth]

No reason any MMO in this day should launch without a dressing room feature and LFG tool from day 1, those should be considered basics and mandatory at launch. 

Yes on dressing rooms, lfg tools I could take or leave, I know they are a great convenience factor but I just feel like they detract form the massive part of MMO's.

[Bunk]

I've played quite a few MMOs in my time... 

Would not have known exactly what the hell a dressing room feature is without looking it up. Also, I remember when LFG tools were added to WoW. Didn't use em. Resubbed again after BC for a while. Still didn't use em. Not to say they aren't useful and probably should be considered important for those who like PUGs, but I really couldn't care less.

Give me back the days of MMOs that didn't even have chat channels. You had to be close enough for your buddy to hear you! Why? Casue we didn't all have telepathy, damnit!

[Merusk]

Games have moved past you, Bunk.  You're a relic.  A Dinosaur!  Go back to playing Whamdoodles with Psychochild and Raph! 

[luckton]

WoW never had a respectable LFG system prior to LFD.  The LFG tools found in EQ1&2, DAoC and others before, during and after WoW's vanilla release were all superior in some form or another.  The only thing WoW had going for it was the instant teleportation of 1-3 group members, assuming at least two people hauled their asses to the dungeon stone to summon the rest the of the group.  LFD has it's flaws, but it was a nice upgrade to the previous system, and the matchmaking part of it was something that wasn't offered by others.  

If I was a BW dev, I'd put in both an automatic LFD system for the lazy and a manual LFG tool a la EQ2 for the more serious crowd.  No reason why you can't have both exist to make everyone happy.

[Kirth]

I should clarify that LFD type of feature (instant teleportation, queue based) is what I can do without. A lfg interface that lets me specific I am spec y looking for instance x is something I do like.

[Sky]

Instant transport was a revelation for me when Rift added it. Great convenience not having to slog all the way back to where I was questing. If it's not a virtual world sim, I'll take the creature comforts all day long.

[Simond]

And don't forget, even in WoW if people want to spend time in /1 putting a group together the old way and slogging on foot to the dungeon nothing is stopping them.

Most people won't. because "old-fashioned group finding" is about on a par with "Sit in uninstanced dungeon camping respawns" in the 'this shit died for a good reason and should stay dead' stakes, but the option is always there.

[sam, an eggplant]

Completely agree. Fuck that shit. WoW's system is nearly perfect; they just need to address the queue times.

[NiX]

I know, right?    Seriously, who's driving this thing?  I would think the Mythic devs they absorbed would have at least come in with 'some' of this knowledge...although DAoC didn't actually have those features either...

I hope the last bit was sarcasm. DAoC released 10 years ago, well before those features were commonplace.

[Sobelius]

No reason any MMO in this day should launch without a dressing room feature and LFG tool from day 1, those should be considered basics and mandatory at launch. 

RIFT released without these and did just fine. Yeah, people asked for them, so I agree in the sense that these have become nearly expected as standard MMO features. But not having them doesn't make a game unplayable or boring.

[Paelos]

I wouldn't mind a LFG system like in puzzle pirates. You post your grouping intentions, locations, and your loot policy, and people apply to your group to come on board.

[Merusk]

And don't forget, even in WoW if people want to spend time in /1 putting a group together the old way and slogging on foot to the dungeon nothing is stopping them.

Even better is putting the group together and joining the random queue because you don't care what dungeon you're running.   Like Sky, I enjoy that I'm back where I started after the run instead of stuck in the middle of nowhere and having to run back to the city.

Also, to address Kirth's complaint, in WoW's system you can flag exactly that way.  Just pick the dungeon you want from the drop-down and tag which role you want to joine as.

Completely agree. Fuck that shit. WoW's system is nearly perfect; they just need to address the queue times.

Nothing's going to make people WANT to tank.  The only way to address it would be to make a tankless game, which devs seem reluctant to do. Weather it's for fear of losing the tiny portion of the population that enjoys playing a tank , because they worry the player base wouldn't know wtf to do without the DIKU roles at this point, or because they simply lack imagination is irrelevant.

[sam, an eggplant]

Actually, their tank bribes worked quite well, dropping queue times to below 15 minutes for normal heroics. Problem is, you don't get better bribes for the more difficult Zul tier of heroics, so those queues remained very long.

[Shatter]

No reason any MMO in this day should launch without a dressing room feature and LFG tool from day 1, those should be considered basics and mandatory at launch. 

RIFT released without these and did just fine. Yeah, people asked for them, so I agree in the sense that these have become nearly expected as standard MMO features. But not having them doesn't make a game unplayable or boring.

Sure people will make do if a LFG system doesnt exist but it often sucks, im not even sure the LFG tool they did add even gets used much.  However, if a LFG system is implemented it needs to be functional enough people want to use it and often games dont make them this way.  Is it really that hard to put in a system that allows you to:

Specify level, class, spec/role
Interest for group:  Quest name, quest level, quest location, instance, whatever
Show who else is doing the same quest as you, their spec, class, level, location
Have it notify me that "4 people have joined LFG for the same quest, would you like to form a group" or something so I dont have to keep hitting refresh and I can do other shit. 

[sam, an eggplant]

You just basically described the WoW dungeon finder. You realize that, right?

[Amaron]

RIFT released without these and did just fine. Yeah, people asked for them, so I agree in the sense that these have become nearly expected as standard MMO features. But not having them doesn't make a game unplayable or boring.

They did just fine because they were smart enough to scramble like mad and get them added.  They still most likely lost a large amount of customers due to their lack.

[Nebu]

I refuse to use any matching system until it begins to show player stats like: "number of times bailed from an instance" "number of wipes in an instance" or "shows up on ___ ignore lists"

I was about 1 in 5 for getting a competent player from the dungeon finder in Rift.  More often than not my group would have had more fun just completing the dungeon a man short.  We would have done that were it not for the bonuses we got for dragging some dead weight along.

[Amaron]

I was about 1 in 5 for getting a competent player from the dungeon finder in Rift. 

I don't know as it was that bad in WoW.  Does Rift not have ilvl reqs in the LFD?  Regardless it is true that auto matchmaking LFD only really works for faceroll content.

[luckton]

TIL that the Trooper male voice actor is Brian Bloom.   

[Ingmar]

At first I read Brian Blessed and was going to second the  . But I guess Brian Bloom is OK too.

[luckton]

At first I read Brian Blessed and was going to second the  . But I guess Brian Bloom is OK too.

Certainly Bloom doesn't have any Hollywood-type movie roles, but good god, look at his IMDB history.  Man's gotten around...and into some AAA titles too.

[Ingmar]

Yeah he's a Bioware regular.

[luckton]

Yeah he's a Bioware regular.

He did some work for Blizzard too 

[Sobelius]

RIFT released without these and did just fine. Yeah, people asked for them, so I agree in the sense that these have become nearly expected as standard MMO features. But not having them doesn't make a game unplayable or boring.

They did just fine because they were smart enough to scramble like mad and get them added.  They still most likely lost a large amount of customers due to their lack.

Really? I mean, really? I'm talking SNL-level really?, here. Without any data, you're talking out of your pixellated money hat. :)

I'm no Trion/RIFT fanboi, but the notion of people quitting in droves because of a lack of dungeon finder tool immediately after release is questionable. My point was that there are certain SWTOR features, which, if not ready for launch would not kill the game. These are quality of life features such as: dressing room, dungeon finder, marking targets, etc.  Having these features can make your game more enjoyable, more in line with existing games, more polished, but shipping without them would not kill most games and certainly not SWTOR. Shipping with unfinished content, buggy combat, inventory errors, no optimization passes for network and graphic performance, a borked patcher/downloader, etc. etc. these will cause customers to flee a product, even one as rabidly fanboi-ready as SWTOR.