SWTOR

[amiable]

EDIT:  That would be Carrie Gouskos.  Yeah, I always liked the Tome.  Give us that and the regenerating action bar and nothing else from WAR (not even computers used to design WAR, which I suspect are tainted with Chaos). 

In my opinion, WAR had a lot of stuff that was good, but was ruined by one or two problems.  Public Quests are a good idea, just really creatively limited and geographically spread out.  Leveling via PvP is a good idea, but you couldn't do it with the kind of PvP that everyone wanted to do (RvR).  RvR is fun, just not done well here (see: engine problems, ward system, etc.).  Overall class ability design was good, save for the absurd overabundance of disarms and incapacitates and snares and stuns and roots.  The battlegrounds were fun, but the game forced you to grind the same one over and over for days on end.  I liked a lot about WAR, but most of it fell apart in the implementation.

Which is why it pisses me off so much that the game is in the state it's in.  They seemed so close to having a really fun game, but for whatever reason they can't address any of their problems.  It's like watching someone bake a chocolate cake using chocolate, flour, milk, eggs, and an octopus.

I agree, there wer some terrific things about this game.  But at some point they went insane and decided to do the exact opposite fo what everyone was telling them to do.  Also they had engine limitations they dhould have just accepted and communicated to the community.

[Draegan]

Mmmm chotopus cake.  Gimme.

[funcro]

Bioware would be far better off collaborating with the MySims team at EA than they're going to end up by collaborating with the remains of Mythic.

[Soln]

Heeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre's PAUL!

http://herald.warhammeronline.com/videoblog/videoViewer.php?date=2009_06&vidFile=E3lightsaber.swf

[HaemishM]

He really is the MMOG equivalent of crabs.

[SnakeCharmer]

Crabs you can get rid of.  He's more like a bad case of genital warts.

[Tannhauser]

Why the fuck did I click on that link?   I knew it would make me mad and I did it anyway.

[Venkman]

He's like a bad penny. He always turns up.

Quick, name the movie!

[Draegan]

I don't think this was posted, Article from Gamesradar

A lot of fluff and cheerleading going on.  I rolled my eyes a few times.  But here's an interesting quote.

At the end of the presentation, the point is made that what BioWare have shown is nothing like the MMOs we know of today. Where are the PvP arenas? Or the large, 25+ player raids? Or auction houses? Or, hey, space-combat? Vogel raises an eyebrow. “Oh, we have all that too. We’re just going to wait a little bit to show you that.” That’s a promise that seems too good to be true. Stay tuned. The Old Republic is going to be huge.

[Ratman_tf]

“The Sith is an action-point class. Do you play many MMO games?”
“A few.”
“So he plays a bit like the rogu... oh, you’ve got it.”

>Camp check on the Rancor Spawn!

[Montague]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93077-The-Old-Republic-Script-Is-the-Size-of-10-KOTORs-40-Novels

Just exactly how crazy and epic an undertaking is this? Simply knowing that every single character in an MMOG speaks at least some dialogue is a pretty wild idea to wrap your head around, so consider these factoids: The script runs into hundreds of thousands of lines, which translates to what Perry estimates is "at least 10 KOTORs recorded back to back" and "approximately 40+ novels worth of content." There have been hundreds of voice actors on the project, who have recorded in cities around the world.

30 gig, 40 gig install maybe?

[Venkman]

I hate all these hacks about the voiceover. That was news five years ago when EQ2 did it. Then it was news when they couldn't do it 100%. The it was barely news when people almost forgot that they didn't do it for any subsequent content releases.

But now it's news again because of a bunch of characters nobody's going to recognize have voice in a game for an audience that'll probably different from the Fallout 3 one anyway? Please.

I want to hear more about the soon-to-be-pushed-out-to-a-future-expansion space combat though.

[March]

I [Bioware-Vogel] thought Age of Conan would be more differentiated. We were betting that both Age of Conan and WAR (Warhammer Online) would have been bigger than they are, but that’s down to their execution, not the market... Age of Conan would have really had something if they’ve maintained that great experience beyond the first 20 levels... What happened to that? When you get past the first 20 levels that experience went away. You can’t do that, not in this climate. The market is ready for differentiation. There’s a lot of WoW fatigue. It doesn’t matter how good that game is, you’re going to get tired of it.

What EA lawyers cut out of Vogel's quote:

WaR would have really had something if they'd maintained that great experience beyond the first tier... What happened to that?

er, welcome aboard Mythic guys, we're thrilled to have you.

[Goreschach]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/93077-The-Old-Republic-Script-Is-the-Size-of-10-KOTORs-40-Novels

Just exactly how crazy and epic an undertaking is this? Simply knowing that every single character in an MMOG speaks at least some dialogue is a pretty wild idea to wrap your head around, so consider these factoids: The script runs into hundreds of thousands of lines, which translates to what Perry estimates is "at least 10 KOTORs recorded back to back" and "approximately 40+ novels worth of content." There have been hundreds of voice actors on the project, who have recorded in cities around the world.

30 gig, 40 gig install maybe?

Wow, just imagine how shit it must be if they can grind out that much useless 'story'.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

This statement caught my eye:

All player characters and non-player characters will have a professional voiced track for every bit of dialog.


How do they know what I want to say ingame? Will I be able to tell another player "you suck, you have no skills"?

[Ingmar]

This statement caught my eye:

All player characters and non-player characters will have a professional voiced track for every bit of dialog.


How do they know what I want to say ingame? Will I be able to tell another player "you suck, you have no skills"?

See: Mass Effect, etc.

Talking to another player isn't "dialog". (On a lot of levels...  )

[Venkman]

Also: menu-based chat filters. This game isn't going to be just for 18+ers.

[Oban]

I can read faster than people speak.  How does in-game voice help an MMORPG?

How much of their budget are they wasting on voice?

[Ratman_tf]

I can read faster than people speak.  How does in-game voice help an MMORPG?

Because waiting for some 'tard NPC to quit talking about how much his butt itches so can you bring him some lotion is immersive or something.

How much of their budget are they wasting on voice?

I hope a lot, so I can warm my hands in the shadenfreude.

[Venkman]

Same questions as EQ2. Beware the search tool*. I'd like to forget about the stupid voiceovers. It's a topic now because there's nothing else to talk about, but it's irrelevant to playing the game outside of solo RPGs, and even there, everyone reads faster than they can consciously process voice. So a lot of us will be skipping when we can, even if we leave the voiceovers active. It's an expensive endeavor for little gain, unless we think a lot of non-MMOers are going to show up, or a lot of kids will come in from cheaper-built persistent worlds.

* Once again though, as an aside, I'm always chagrined by just how wrong I called WoW's success

[Oban]

KOTOR had sound?

[Ingmar]

I'll probably listen to all the dialogue the first time through, I do in the RPGs, and like it. I'm sure you'll be able to skip it, like in all the other Bioware games, if you don't want to sit through it.

[Koyasha]

If voiceovers are done correctly, they can add to a game quite a bit.  See Mass Effect.  But most games don't have them done correctly.  Further, I feel as though they limit the amount of dialogue possible in a game, due to the expense and time required to record them.  Imagine writing Planescape: Torment, and then having to take into account voicing every line of dialogue.  Good odds you'd have to cut back the number of lines to make it work.

The part that concerns me about the everything is voiced part though is that unless all the voice actors are in-house permanent employees, it seems like it could seriously slow down content production.  Even if they have the tools to produce content at a very fast pace, if they have to wait for the voice acting sessions before they can put in the content, it might be an issue.

[Margalis]

I find it interesting that in trying to build hype for the game they never mention any mechanics or systems of any kind. As far as I can tell there hasn't been a single word about how it actually plays. The implicit message seems to be that in terms of gameplay mechanics it's been there done that.

[Lantyssa]

Having a voice actor recite lines takes far less time than it does to write them.  The writing has to happen regardless.  Seriously.  A trained VA can knock out lines for a major character in a few hours.

Even as incredibly ambitious as this sounds for hero characters, it's still only going to take a few weeks at most, and those they'll likely have some kind of call-back agreement for.

[SnakeCharmer]

The implicit message seems to be that in terms of gameplay mechanics it's been there done that.

During one of the interviews I saw with Walton/Vogel at E3 on G4TV or whatever it's called, one of them specifically said it would be 'traditional MMO combat'.  So.  Yeah.  Same as it ever was, or will be apparently.

[Koyasha]

It takes less time perhaps if they're available whenever you need them.  What I'm more concerned about is whether they'll be available on the regular basis that would be needed for the kind of fast content creation I think is needed for this game.  If they're not coming in every week or two to record more lines, then content creation isn't going fast enough, I think.

Besides, it still does take time to recite lines.  To get a good result from voice acting, a good director and a good voice actor are needed, in addition to enough time and takes to get it right.  It's a point that was driven home to me at this year's Anime Expo when I was able to observe the differences between how the japanese voice actors work and how most of the dub voice actors work.  The reason for dubs being generally inferior is made quite clear in that the dubbers seem to be expected to put out many more lines in the same amount of time, they don't do as many retakes and they don't seem to have as good direction.

In Mass Effect, I noticed - and I've seen the comment quite often - that male Shepard didn't sound as good as female Shepard on many of the lines.  That may have been the voice actor, or it may have been the director or the schedule, or some combination.  It may have been something as simple as Jennifer Hale being much quicker to get the character and the proper mindset, while Mark Meer needed more time and direction than was scheduled. 

The difference between well-done voice acting and even simply 'decent' voice acting is like night and day, to say nothing of poor or bad voice acting.  Decent voice acting doesn't add that much, and anything below that actively detracts from any medium.

[Zhiroc]

It takes less time perhaps if they're available whenever you need them.  What I'm more concerned about is whether they'll be available on the regular basis that would be needed for the kind of fast content creation I think is needed for this game.  If they're not coming in every week or two to record more lines, then content creation isn't going fast enough, I think.

I wondered about that too... but then I started thinking about the structure of KotOR, which is what I think it will play like. Let's say that KotOR was developed "incrementally". If you think about it, there's only the companions, and 4 other characters (Malak, Admiral Saul, Calo Nord, and Vandar) who have "recurring roles", and only the first two show up many times along the timeline. All the other voices are episodic.

That's still a lot (8 cleasses having 9 companions, plus two for the PC--male/female adds up), though I could see them reusing voices. So, they hire a cast of about 20 like one would for a TV series, and just bring the rest on for short stints of guest starring.

[Fordel]

Well each voice actor can probably do half a dozen different voices, if not more. Female Shepard and Bastila are both the same lady.

Unless it's that guy who voiced Carth, he seems to be able to only do that one voice, forever.

[Velorath]

unless we think a lot of non-MMOers are going to show up

Well yeah, they're expecting Bioware fans to show up and they're generally the kind of people who like paying attention to they story.  I mean really, so many people here are always talking about how they want MMO's to do something different, and then when developers do, you get stuff like this.  "You can't focus on story, MMO players don't care about that".  "You can't have the players making permanent choices, MMO players won't stand for that".  "You can't do voiceovers, MMO players will just skip past them".  I know I'm being overly optimistic here, but please forgive me if I like that a developer isn't designing a game with just the stereotypical MMO players in mind.  We already have just about every other MMO ever made to cater to that audience.  Let Bioware cater to their own audience.

I like listening to voiceovers.  They're one of the reasons people generally liked the first 20 levels of AoC more than everything that followed.  I want to be able to sit back and pay attention to the story rather than see how fast I can rush through the content to get to an end game I don't give a shit about.

[Margalis]

During one of the interviews I saw with Walton/Vogel at E3 on G4TV or whatever it's called, one of them specifically said it would be 'traditional MMO combat'.  So.  Yeah.  Same as it ever was, or will be apparently.

Given that the genre is relatively new and had it's first runaway success even more recently the idea that there even is such a thing as "traditional MMO combat" demonstrates a failure of imagination. Especially if you consider that while many genres fall into conventions the conventions they settle into are usually pretty good, whereas MMO combat is generally lame.

I mean really, so many people here are always talking about how they want MMO's to do something different, and then when developers do, you get stuff like this.  "You can't focus on story, MMO players don't care about that". 

It seems to me that the majority of MMOs pre-release have claimed to have awesome stories. Also I would draw a distrinction between doing something different with gameplay systems and doing something different with content. It sounds to me like the minute-to-minute action in SWTOR is generic.

And content is always consumed faster than it is created. BioWare wants you to pay your $15 a month every month for 5 years. There isn't going to be 5 years worth of awesome story. In the end you'll be re-running instances and re-fighting raids and killing the same stormtroopers over and over again. So I'd like to hear about *something* that makes that part of the game at all interesting.

Maybe Bioware can pump out massive amounts of well-written stories or maybe they expect people to only sub for 6 months but I doubt both of those.

[Velorath]

It seems to me that the majority of MMOs pre-release have claimed to have awesome stories. Also I would draw a distrinction between doing something different with gameplay systems and doing something different with content. It sounds to me like the minute-to-minute action in SWTOR is generic.

Which MMO's claimed to have awesome stories?  Off the top of my head, FFXI, AoC, and LOTRO are they only ones I can think of that actually had stories in the same sense the Bioware is talking about (and even those games are a lot more limited in terms of story than what Bioware seems to be doing with SWTOR).

And content is always consumed faster than it is created. BioWare wants you to pay your $15 a month every month for 5 years. There isn't going to be 5 years worth of awesome story. In the end you'll be re-running instances and re-fighting raids and killing the same stormtroopers over and over again. So I'd like to hear about *something* that makes that part of the game at all interesting.

Maybe Bioware can pump out massive amounts of well-written stories or maybe they expect people to only sub for 6 months but I doubt both of those.

I don't know what Bioware's business model is with this game.  For all I know they're cooking up some micro-transaction stuff as a supplemental income.  Any MMO that's banking on all, or even most of its subscribers remaining consistently subscribed, every month, for years is doomed to failure though.  Everyone I've ever known that's played WoW, even those who were in fairly hardcore raiding guilds often cancel their subs for a few months every now and then to take a break.

Part of the reason content is consumed faster than it is created is because MMO players typically rush through it.  If Bioware manages to attract their usual audience, and they get people who actually pay attention to the story, content doesn't get burned through as quickly.  That's provided they have some system in place that allows you to still be useful in a group with your friends who catassed 20 levels past you, of course.  Also people are more likely to repeat content if it is good.  Repeated Tortage in AoC a few times.  You'd have to put a gun to my head to get me to do the Barrens in WoW again.

[Venkman]

It's not that veterans don't want change. It's that we want actual change. Adding significant cost to your development just for a feature that even casual RPGers eventually skip past does not on paper sound like that. It's a "nice to have" when I'd rather have something new.

But again, we're just laser-focused on this right now because there's nothing else to talk about. If they deliver VO and KOTOR34567 and launch-day space flight that lightly follows XvT and some type of engaging endgame (preferably PvP), then I ain't going to care about VO

[Lantyssa]

Besides, it still does take time to recite lines.  To get a good result from voice acting, a good director and a good voice actor are needed, in addition to enough time and takes to get it right.  It's a point that was driven home to me at this year's Anime Expo when I was able to observe the differences between how the japanese voice actors work and how most of the dub voice actors work.  The reason for dubs being generally inferior is made quite clear in that the dubbers seem to be expected to put out many more lines in the same amount of time, they don't do as many retakes and they don't seem to have as good direction.

Until a few years ago when I dropped off the scene, the anime dub VA was a very incestuous club.  The same actors were used over and over, and they gained the jobs in a fledgling industry.  I've you've seen the inside of the industry you know how tiny the operations were.  They didn't get those positions by being good so much as knowing the people running the company when they needed someone to recite lines.  They seemed to be getting more serious about it when my interest waned, but for the longest time "professional" is not a term I would have used for anime VAs.  (That difference is also why I will only watch subtitles.  I get far more meaning out of good emotive dialogue I can't understand than something phoned in.)

The more mainstream VAs, like those who did Saturday morning cartoons and commercial voice overs have actual training and do this for a living.  They're better at it and they can do more with it.  Games using voice are starting to learn it's worth investing in those VAs instead of the cheap phone-it-in ones.  Used to in games it was an after thought.

[Hayduke]

The implicit message seems to be that in terms of gameplay mechanics it's been there done that.

During one of the interviews I saw with Walton/Vogel at E3 on G4TV or whatever it's called, one of them specifically said it would be 'traditional MMO combat'.  So.  Yeah.  Same as it ever was, or will be apparently.

From the Gamesradar article

“but it’s all synchronized combat. We have a synchronized animation system - it’s not like every other MMO where it’s two guys dancing, watching each other run through the animations. This is like KotOR. Blades hit, we can block stuff, people are actually parrying – you always know why he hit.”

Even if it's still push button abilities for combat if this is done right it could be a very nice thing after years of swing_animation + stagger_animation + spatter.