The West (as of 3/09, Bat Country will be on World 8)

[Samwise]

Just think about it this way. Aim and dodge  is used whether you are defense or offense. Putting points into either means have gained a universal benefit. The only way it would be worthwhile to put points in appearance or tactics over aim or dodge would be if it reduced a greater per point to losers  attack value than aim. Which is a 1:1 ratio which is then rolled against your defense value which is also 1:1. And even THEN only if your value is higher than theirs and even THEN only by the difference not the total value.  Does this make any sense?

If their value is higher than yours, having your value as high as possible is still beneficial because it reduces the difference and therefore their advantage.  I.e. if you assume that the appearance/tactics difference is applied as a 1:1 penalty to one player or the others' attack rolls, having a +1 to appearance (if you're the attacker) is of equal value to having either +1 dodge or +1 aim, depending on which way the difference goes.

More importantly, appearance/tactics are useful in jobs, which can help you earn money or XP faster than duelling alone.  That would be the main reason to pump points into them instead of putting everything into aim/dodge.

[rk47]

which can help you earn money or XP faster than duelling alone

this is the main reason why i gimped myself so much in combat.

[Prospero]

I'm not seeing why it would have to more than 1:1 to be worthwhile. My assumption is a one point of surplus appearance equals one point off my opponents aim. Given that, if I have 20 surplus appearance, then I have the equivalent of 20 points of dodge. At the very same time, my aim is not impacted in any way. If I neglect appearance, and have a 20 point deficit, then my aim is reduced my 20 and I have to rely on my dodge value. Now if I had pumped those 20 points into dodge it is true that I would have 20 points of dodge, but my attack value would suffer.

I see appearance as a gamble; if it is higher then it is worthwhile, if it isn't it is wasted points compared to having dumped the same amount of points into dodge. Also, I am very careful to never be in a position where I will be attacked. I make sure I am KO'd at the end of all of my dueling runs, so I don't need to worry about splitting my points between tactics and appearance. I totally agree that dodge is generally more useful; I have a very focused strategy that seems to work well and relies on never being attackable. It allows me to kick ass on offense and still do most of the quests that come by.

[schild]

But, but, I'm a builder :(

[Musashi]

I think Aim/Dodging aren't available on the west stat lookup thingey not because they are weighted any higher than the other stats, but that someone with low dodge is extremely vulnerable to someone with high aim.  So one could look up players with low dodge and destroy them

That means they are weighted higher...if you know their value it confers a great advantage. Whereas appearance/tactics does not. If appearance/tactics had the same impact it would confer the same advantage knowing its value. But more importantly look at the people with very high values in appearance or tactics none of them are high ranked duelers.

Appearance/tactics only modifies your attack value which is based on aim. While dodge IS your defense value. No way a secondary stat has a greater effect over the primary.

Nah, man.  I think it's just concealed because having at least one or two stats hidden makes it so you can't just use the look up to find easy targets.  I think it's pretty obvious that you need to either have a lot of aim or a lot of dodge, so those are good stats to hide.  But I really don't think that they're weighted higher just because they're hidden.

[gryeyes]

More importantly, appearance/tactics are useful in jobs, which can help you earn money or XP faster than duelling alone.  That would be the main reason to pump points into them instead of putting everything into aim/dodge.

And another reason why their value would not be 1 to 1. But we are comparing putting points into appearance/tactics INSTEAD of aim or dodge. The value of aim and dodge are used regardless of offense/defense. Basically im thinking its a way for people to not be completely worthless at dueling and still do some jobs.

And dueling will earn you exp far faster than jobs unless you are a pure adventurer until at least level 30-40.

Edit: I cant explain it any further. Either you understand what im saying or you don't.

Schild hes aiming at your head with no dodge with no money. Im assuming hes trying to get passed out?

[Musashi]

Not comparing it instead of aim or dodge.  Just comparing the use of tactics/appearance for a soldier vs dodge.

Obviously you need aim.

[gryeyes]

We are talking about the value of using points for the purpose of dueling. Each point you spend there you aren't putting elsewhere.

[Musashi]

wut?

[Amarr HM]

No one really knows. It could easily be a +5 / -5 to aim based on who wins the appearance / tactics competition.

Another build people are using is pumping strength and vitality, investing a decent amount in aim and then largely not bothering with dodge, tactics, appearance. The advantage is that one strength stat will get you damage and damage resistance which a ranged dueller cannot do. You'll get hit more but take less damage and hit hard. You'll also get free health and access to some excellent early jobs (picking agaves is stupidly good for strength based duellers). It's even possibly advantageous to not bother dodging at all which gives you an aim multiplier and using that to focus on head shots, but I haven't seen many attackers doing that.

Actually I was half tempted to aim for this 100% resistance build and not bother with dodge/appearance, but I would be worried about the very thing that is being discussed here and that is how much the appearance/tactics effects your aim & you're right noone knows but I doubt it is that simplified.

[gryeyes]

The answer is dodge.

[Amarr HM]

From the help file

The attack value is decided by your aiming skill.

Either the attack value of the attacker or the attack value of the defender is lowered. With the skill 'tactics' the defender is able to use his home advantage. He chooses the side on which he stands and uses the knowledge of the town. The attacker uses his appearance to intimidate the defender. If the tactic skill of the defender is higher than the appearance skill of the attacker, the attackers attack value goes down. If it is lower, the attack value of the defender goes down. The bigger the difference between the skills, the more the attack value is lowered.

Additionally each player receives a bonus of five for the attack value.



The last bit is in there so you never have 0 aim.

[Kageru]

The damage resistance formula is actually:

Melee = toughness + (reflex / 2)
Ranged = reflex + (toughness / 2)

so the defensive stats are more valuable than they initially appear. And strengths ability to get vigor / toughness in one stat is point efficient. In addition melee weapons seem to have larger damage maximum values and damage done is believed to be capped at 2 x max weapon damage.

In practice as well being able to do high paying jobs is pretty useful. There's lots of nice gear to buy and money contributes to growing the town (not so much an issue now). Aim, Dodge and Health are all worthless for working so it's another reason to pump shooting, though strength has much better low / medium jobs.

[schild]

The prospector didn't like your offer. He hits you in the face. You lose 25 health points.

Why am I trading with a prospector?!

[gryeyes]

Max damage is capped at 2x the shown weapon value?   Before the multiplier for location? Once you can trade gear it wont matter so much. Gear out workers/adventures with best possible stuff and have them feed fighters. Once forts are in and fighters can directly contribute a town wide benefit. Are you wearing the dancer outfit Schild?

[Amarr HM]

I agree with you Kageru and thanks for explaining the max damage thing I was reading about that and wondered what it meant oooh yeh I get it now.

The only problem with the reflex tough build is it isn't versatile but it is probably the single most effective build. If you come up against a high dodge appearance dueler you might have problems but you are still at least 50/50 just depends on if you land a hit or not.

[rk47]

The prospector didn't like your offer. He hits you in the face. You lose 25 health points.

Why am I trading with a prospector?!

You get really thirsty and take a sip without thinking about it. You lose 397 health points. 

[Kageru]

Lots of unknowns, that's for sure. The one that interests me most is if the 2x bonus to aim for not dodging happens before or after the app/tactics adjustment. If it is, and you can use damage resistance to reduce incoming hits to low numbers then it doesn't matter if you get hit 8 times because your high vigor and the head hit bonus is going to make any return hit you get really punitive. And you can probably achieve that with a moderate aim.

Certainly noob-man2 in schild's picture seems to be using this tactic. It helps that some of the early vigor gear is also fairly potent. That +15 vigor shirt noob-man has is cheap, as is the mexican neck item which has even more vigor on it.

[gryeyes]

How are your points currently distributed Kageru?

[Amarr HM]

Lots of unknowns, that's for sure. The one that interests me most is if the 2x bonus to aim for not dodging happens before or after the app/tactics adjustment. If it is, and you can use damage resistance to reduce incoming hits to low numbers then it doesn't matter if you get hit 8 times because your high vigor and the head hit bonus is going to make any return hit you get really punitive. And you can probably achieve that with a moderate aim.

The aim bonus is carried over to the next round which means you can't receive it in the first round, don't go for headshots here unless your aim is exceptionally high.

Again from the help file

"You can choose not to try to dodge and have more concentration for the next round. This doubles your attack value."

I have actually considered this tactic removing dodge and going for headshots, but then you are always doubling your opponents dodge skill (most duelers should protect the head on every round) so getting a hit will be tricky especially with your gimpy aim from having no tactics/appearance. You will probably have about 10-20% chance to hit each round against a proper dodge dueller, but then again one hit might win the duel if he has low reflex/tough.

[Amarr HM]

This is taken from the forums and I think it's best explanation of how things work, and it uses Prospero's angle of taking a points from aim based on the difference between tactics appearance. Yes this part is hypothetical but it's a good starting point to help you understand the base mechanics.

high tactics is pretty much useless for dueling if you have low dodge!

With high tactics you reduce opponents aim (attack value).
But then, random numbers are used to determine if hit is made.

example:
- attacker has 80 aiming and 0 appearance
- defender has 40 tactics and 0 dodging
1. attackers attack value is lowered by 40
2. attacker gets +5 attack value, defender gets +5 defense value (by default in all duels)
3. random number is used: from 0 to attack value of attacker (0 - 45)
and
from 0 and defense value of defender (0 - 5)
4. if attacker aims at defenders dodged side (green circle), defense value is doubled

so, in this case you could face 0-45 vs. 0-10 and then random number is chosen.
everything is about luck, but attacker has better chance.
whichever random number is greater, it determines if it is hit or miss.

calculating damage is completely different matter and has nothing to do with aim, dodge, tactics or appearance skills.

[Kageru]

I suspect there'll be some function limiting how far tactics and appearance can reduce the aim of the opponent. Some form of diminishing returns or it being far from linear otherwise we'd have duellists with pumped appearance never getting hit or damaged. The probably don't want combats to be that one sided.

I was going for a balanced dueller and assumed high powered weapons would overcome spending in damage resistance. So a fair number of points in dodge, tactics and aim with less in tough / reflex. The problem came in that I'm badly suited to making a living from duelling (low appearance, no particular bonuses) but also can't get good jobs so the value of having a high shooting for working is becoming apparent.

[Amarr HM]

I suspect there'll be some function limiting how far tactics and appearance can reduce the aim of the opponent. Some form of diminishing returns or it being far from linear otherwise we'd have duellists with pumped appearance never getting hit or damaged. The probably don't want combats to be that one sided.

Yeh totally it's most likely diminishing returns on most skill-rolls so a balanced layout is nearly the best build I can see.

25% shooting/vigor
20% aim
18% dodge
10% reflex
10% toughness
5% appearance
5% tactics
2%  HP

Just a thought this way you can bulk up specific skills using gear and never have one going to waste eg. toughness versus melee duelers or tactics when defending.

[Kageru]

A discussion on beta about the forts.

The one thing I haven't heard yet is why you'd actually want to build one other than e-peen and inviting attacks. I imagine there must be a reason though because they're a sizeable resource sink.

[gryeyes]

I'm not seeing why it would have to more than 1:1 to be worthwhile. My assumption is a one point of surplus appearance equals one point off my opponents aim. Given that, if I have 20 surplus appearance, then I have the equivalent of 20 points of dodge.

Because even then you would have to rely on a stat that is only applied on defense or offense. It has to higher than your opponents corresponding stat to gain any advantage and even then its reduced by any amount of tactics he has from gear.. So even in an ideal situation (1:1 which is not correct easily testable) where your opponent has 0 tactics (not gonna happen) and those corresponding points in aim. You would gain no advantage. And then when you get attacked you are at an extreme disadvantage. So it would have to be higher than 1:1 to even to approach being worthwhile.

Short version: If you gimp on aim or dodge for any other stat you will lose to any fighter 99% of the time. Ask kageru how effective it is? Unless that is not his current build.

[Kageru]

You can increase the efficiency of appearance or tactics by matching your play-style. Since I have little interest in attacking people I play a soldier, have some points in tactics and never attack though this does mean a lot of the time I'm like a poorly skilled worker and an easy to find target (but not a soft one). An offensive duellist is probably going to invest only in appearance and spend a lot of time attacking far off towns to make recrimination harder and hiding in hotels between duels if his home town is being attacked.

[rk47]

A discussion on beta about the forts.

The one thing I haven't heard yet is why you'd actually want to build one other than e-peen and inviting attacks. I imagine there must be a reason though because they're a sizeable resource sink.

I thought u said better gear and such is only accessible from forts? I assume this is some sort of 'town expansion' game that takes up more resources than just cash to improve.

[Polysorbate80]

Totally useless anecdotal bullshit:  I keep a fairly gimpy but evenly-balanced soldier, with 18 dodge and 18 tactics (27 with bonus) at level 30 .  I was recently complimented by a duellist (fiona stormheart) for being the only person they've ever completely missed in a duel.

[Kageru]

You might win a little bit more often with a weapon upgrade though, as long as you can trust Verbal not to stage a coup while you visit Bat Country for some shopping.

[Polysorbate80]

She might not let me back in, depending on what I've done lately to piss her off :P  (good thing she doesn't read this.  I think.  Guess I'll find out)

[Morfiend]

Sweet. About a page later, and I am now way more confused. 

[Amarr HM]

Join the chatzy channel details are in the town forums morfiend.

[Morfiend]

Join the chatzy channel details are in the town forums morfiend.

I dont have access to the town forum.

[Samwise]

I just checked and you seem to have the appropriate permissions.  Try again?

[schild]

He does, I gave it to him.