Yet another Sweeping Alterac Valley Re-design

[SurfD]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=2215842565&postId=22153035129&sid=1#0

As a continuing part of our improvements, we will be implementing the following changes in the next patch.

Strategy can be an important element of any battleground. We want to emphasize this in Alterac Valley more and give players additional meaning to both defending and attacking. To push the strategic element of the battleground to the next level we have changed how players maintain their reinforcements or deprive the other team of theirs.

Each team will have a starting reinforcement count. Reinforcements can be lost in significant amounts if a tower is destroyed or if Captain Galvangar or Belinda Stonehearth is killed. For each team member death, an additional reinforcement will be lost. On the death of General Drek’Thar or Vanndar Stormpike, all reinforcements are lost and the team is defeated. At any point in time, if a team is reduced to zero reinforcements, the opposing team will win the battle. Defending your own teammates, towers, and key NPCs will be an important aspect of maintaining team resources and achieving victory in Alterac Valley.

Warmasters can be the boon or the bane of any team. They are an important element for the defense of your general or the defeat of the opposing general. Warlords and their general will be more closely linked in the next patch. Pulling one is a guarantee the other will come as well. Each team begins with four Warmasters. Destroying a tower will eliminate the associated Warmaster. Unlike the current game play, however, destroying the enemy tower will not add a Warmaster to your own side.

We will be changing the pace of the battle slightly with a reduction in the time needed to control a tower or graveyard. Where it currently takes five minutes to gain control, the time will be reduced to four minutes. The honor for capturing a tower will also be increased.

Graveyards can be an important resource for getting your teammates back into the battle more quickly. Currently, players can sometimes be sent to their starting tunnels far from the battlefront. This can often be an inconvenient location to respawn and more out of the way from the action than we would like, to correct this, players will instead respawn at a team-controlled graveyard. Should the team not have a graveyard under their control, they will respawn in the starting tunnel.

Players will only be awarded bonus honor during the battle for destroying enemy towers and slaying the enemy Captain. Once the battle is concluded, bonus honor will be awarded for intact towers, a surviving Captain, and for victory in battle. The bonus honor awarded should be similar to previous totals, but will reward players for taking more active roles in Alterac Valley toward defending or attacking key locations and NPCs.

Lastly, we are changing NPC interactions within Alterac Valley. We have reduced the number of elite NPCs in Stormpike and Frostwolf holds as well as sent all Commanders and Lieutenants out of Alterac Valley. They are currently in search of other battle opportunities. This should reduce the amount of NPCs that players will have to fight and place more focus on PvP combat over key locations on the map.

Strategy is the name of the game in Alterac Valley, and these changes will bring out the need for more teamwork and coordination from both the Horde and the Alliance as they vie for domination of this battleground.

Sounds like some pretty hefty changes going on, and a LOT more focus on protecting your assets.

Of particularly interesting note is the way they say "on each Team member death" a reinforcement point will be lost, and once all points are gone, the team loses.  This almost makes it sound like a win or loss could be determined solely through attrition due to player death.  Can you say: "WTB healers for AV group?"

[Selby]

Too bad you can't join AV in groups.  A well coordinated guild or two could really make it more fun.  As I see it now it looks like they are trying to avoid people rushing the other side's main fortress to go for a quick victory while suffering major losses all the way there.

[Fordel]

I want to say the "enough player deaths = you lose" is to prevent the multi-hour long turtle games that emerge at random.

My fear is we'll get ass hats that do nothing but suicide on the enemy to force their own side to lose.

[caladein]

Of particularly interesting note is the way they say "on each Team member death" a reinforcement point will be lost, and once all points are gone, the team loses.  This almost makes it sound like a win or loss could be determined solely through attrition due to player death.  Can you say: "WTB healers for AV group?"

I think the best analogy I could come up with was Battlefield's Conquest mode. And honestly, that sounds pretty cool.

[Drubear]

An interesting modification (from the forum postings above) was to not actually lose if reinforcements (tickets) go to 0, but just disallow players from rezzing at the spirit healers (i.e. have them despawn.) It would suxxors to be dead and just watch the match, but being able to pull it out so close to the end (by killing the opposing general) would make it even more nail-biting. (IMO)

[Kail]

I think the best analogy I could come up with was Battlefield's Conquest mode. And honestly, that sounds pretty cool.

Yeah, I'm thinking the same thing.  I'm cautiously optimistic about this.  Even though I'm evidently riding some kind of freak statistical anomaly in that my team wins about 90% of the time as Horde, this could be cool.  I admit to being kind of partial to the weird PvP/PvE mishmash that AV is currently (since I don't have a guild, this is as close as I'll ever come to raiding), but this might be fun.

The one concern I have is if turtling becomes the only way to win.  Get everyone in your base around your general, and whomp the enemy when they attack.  Unless they can completely wipe out your team by taking towers and GYs, this seems to be an easy (and extremely slow) win, since they'll at best be evenly matched with the defenders and fighting an elite boss on top of that.  In Battlefield, this is largely averted by having the team which controls less than half the field hemorrhaging points, but I don't see any mention of that here (nor anything about what role towers are supposed to play, aside from giving honor when burned).

[Chenghiz]

Too bad you can't join AV in groups.  A well coordinated guild or two could really make it more fun.  As I see it now it looks like they are trying to avoid people rushing the other side's main fortress to go for a quick victory while suffering major losses all the way there.

Didn't they announce that they were going to bring this back? Also you can anyway, if you get a mod like Preform AV.

[Fordel]

I really hope they don't bring back full raid joins for AV. People go shit around in AV because they get tired of being curb stomped by the set groups in the other BGs. If we start seeing retarded shit like the old 20 mage AV's back in circulation, that'll kill off what fun I had left in that BG.

[Zetor]

Interesting... I wonder if this'll bring back the old Field of Strife meatgrinders. And with the removal of elites, possible 2-3man stealth teams to ninja-cap towers (4 mins won't be enough for backup if the rest of the zerg is fighting at the middle of the map). Will there be any way to "gain" reinforcements by getting supplies from the mine and/or farming hides/wolves/rams? Or will each team just start at 1000 and erode to 0 over time?

"LFM Korrak raid, PST!!!"

Oh, and I hope they un-nerf Balinda if this change does come to pass. Right now, she can be soloed by a warlock. :P


-- Z.

[SurfD]

Oh, and I hope they un-nerf Balinda if this change does come to pass. Right now, she can be soloed by a warlock. :P

-- Z.

But that is intended, everyone knows that warlock > mage any day.   Thats what the alliance gets for picking a mage as their foreward commander.

[Simond]

The one concern I have is if turtling becomes the only way to win.  Get everyone in your base around your general, and whomp the enemy when they attack.  Unless they can completely wipe out your team by taking towers and GYs, this seems to be an easy (and extremely slow) win, since they'll at best be evenly matched with the defenders and fighting an elite boss on top of that.

Call up air support, cavalry, and the elite summoned mob and let them pick off the defenders?

(Assuming that they're all still in, of course).

[Merusk]

I like the change.  It's bugged me for a while that there was continual respawn in all of the BGs, but hey, whatcha gonna do?  Well, this apparently.   Certainly will make for a more interesting bg.. if I ever get my Reroll horde up to 70.  Alliance's woeful teamwork in my battle group guarantees almost every game will be a loss now.  Buahaha.

[Zetor]

Oh, and I hope they un-nerf Balinda if this change does come to pass. Right now, she can be soloed by a warlock. :P

-- Z.

But that is intended, everyone knows that warlock > mage any day.   Thats what the alliance gets for picking a mage as their foreward commander.

Yeah... a mage with a 1.5s cast time arcane explosion, random sheeps [that heal the target to full] and 3 sec cast fireballs that hit for about... 1k. She can be soloed just by playing the LOS game.. as long as you avoid getting meleed [she doesn't hit as hard as galv, but still ouchy for a cloth caster]. It's a 'bit' harder to do that to galv, with the mortal strike / whirlwind / intimidating shout / cleave and insta-clothy-gib ability.

Just saying, this will probably be the first thing alliance is going to whine about when this change goes through. :P


-- Z.

[Xanthippe]

Oh, and I hope they un-nerf Balinda if this change does come to pass. Right now, she can be soloed by a warlock. :P

-- Z.

But that is intended, everyone knows that warlock > mage any day.   Thats what the alliance gets for picking a mage as their foreward commander.

Yeah... a mage with a 1.5s cast time arcane explosion, random sheeps [that heal the target to full] and 3 sec cast fireballs that hit for about... 1k. She can be soloed just by playing the LOS game.. as long as you avoid getting meleed [she doesn't hit as hard as galv, but still ouchy for a cloth caster]. It's a 'bit' harder to do that to galv, with the mortal strike / whirlwind / intimidating shout / cleave and insta-clothy-gib ability.

Just saying, this will probably be the first thing alliance is going to whine about when this change goes through. :P


-- Z.

Balinda's a joke compared to Galv.

No more horde exploits on Vann. 

I'm looking forward to the changes.  AV has always been my favorite battleground - I like large scale wars better than small scale pvp.

[Jobu]

They need to tweak the terrain a little more too. The pass from Stonehearth to Snowpike is vastly easier to defend than the route between Iceblood and Frostwolf.

Looks interesting though. Maybe I can finally convince my lolhordezerg teammates to actually defend with me.

[Threash]

Cue the naked suicidal assholes.

[Fordel]

They need to tweak the terrain a little more too. The pass from Stonehearth to Snowpike is vastly easier to defend than the route between Iceblood and Frostwolf.

Looks interesting though. Maybe I can finally convince my lolhordezerg teammates to actually defend with me.

Something that to this day boggles my mind, is why the horde continue to follow the road to SP. You can go both above it or below it to reach SP, but that only seems to happen after the 15th failed attempt at funneling 30 horde into 5 feet of space.

[Merusk]

Lack of experience and exploration, combined with herd mentality.  Soon as someone shows them they learn and use it, unless the majority are going the other way.

[Fordel]

Why do they forget though I wonder, like every alliance in existence knows how to scoot up the FW Keep hill to avoid Jotek and the Blacksmith+Friends NPC group.

[Merusk]

That's the herd mentality there.  YOu see 20 folks on the path, you're more likely to go to them (safety in numbers) rather than ride down under the bridge, over the pass or around to the mine. 

Fuck, if Horde just would learn the map they'd find there's MANY ways to get that flag, with safe-areas to prepare for a charge.

Alliance does the same stupid thing when they respawn in the cave.  Rather than massing at the mine and sweeping behind the horde D, they always drop down into the rez-pit and get pincered between the live defense and the respawns.

[Calantus]

Cue the naked suicidal assholes.

I'm going to enjoy it.

[Fordel]

Alliance does the same stupid thing when they respawn in the cave.  Rather than massing at the mine and sweeping behind the horde D, they always drop down into the rez-pit and get pincered between the live defense and the respawns.

I can actually explain what is happening her, like 80% of the alliance spawning in the cave are trying to ride down that "ridge" that separates the road, SP GY and SP GY flag, they just completely fail at running in a straight line and fall into the rez area  :-D

[Paelos]

Cue the naked suicidal assholes.

Exactly. People griefed AV all the time before they gave them infinite control over the objectives. Now you can just sink the ship by putting 3-4 ppl in there who just die constantly. Unless reinforcement levels are insanely high, this is a terrible idea.

[Teleku]

I think the best analogy I could come up with was Battlefield's Conquest mode. And honestly, that sounds pretty cool.

The one concern I have is if turtling becomes the only way to win.  Get everyone in your base around your general, and whomp the enemy when they attack.  Unless they can completely wipe out your team by taking towers and GYs, this seems to be an easy (and extremely slow) win, since they'll at best be evenly matched with the defenders and fighting an elite boss on top of that.  In Battlefield, this is largely averted by having the team which controls less than half the field hemorrhaging points, but I don't see any mention of that here (nor anything about what role towers are supposed to play, aside from giving honor when burned).

Reinforcements can be lost in significant amounts if a tower is destroyed or if Captain Galvangar or Belinda Stonehearth is killed.

I think that is how they are going to stop that.  If you turtle up, and the opposing team caps all your stuff, you will be defending with a significantly lower amount of reinforcments than the attackers.  At which point, they could probably just attrition you down to death without even killing your general.

[rk47]

Or they can make the more flags you lose, the quicker you lose reinforcement points.
And the more you have, the quicker reinforcement counter ticks back in.

[Koyasha]

Cue the naked suicidal assholes.

Exactly. People griefed AV all the time before they gave them infinite control over the objectives. Now you can just sink the ship by putting 3-4 ppl in there who just die constantly. Unless reinforcement levels are insanely high, this is a terrible idea.

Yeah, this problem I see no fair way to counter.  Of course, we have yet to see that it is a major problem, but I think it probably will be.  The only possible solution I can think of is to put a counter on each individual, when you die too many times, you get booted out of the battleground.  And that would be questionable and probably unfair at least 30% of the time or so since people can die very often in legitimate fighting in AV.

I definitely like that they're getting rid of race-to-win, however.