Why I now hate every MMO.

[WindupAtheist]

Caught a post from Raydeen on this board, linking to this: Ultima 6 Online.  It's exactly what it claims to be:  A fifteen-year old single-player RPG, hacked into becoming a baby MMO, with a peak concurrency of six or eight players.  (There's a bank, and even rentable housing.)  I used to be quite fond of the original, so I signed up for shits and giggles, not expecting much.  As I thought about it, however, it made me realize how much modern games are missing.

I guess it's just quaint, but I like the fact that there's a system for conversing with an NPC.  I like that I have to use this system to ask a shopkeeper what he sells, rather than the NPC just being a button you press to bring up a shopping menu.  I like the fact that if it's the wrong time of day, the guy might be in bed, or off eating lunch, or visiting his sweetheart.  I like the sense that the world functions on it's own, as opposed to being a static theme park for foozle-whacking adventurers.  I remember the other night, a friend and I were talking to a little NPC girl, who was babbling on about her dolls and what her mom does for a living.  Abruptly another NPC burst out of the tavern, shut the door behind him, took off down the road, and disappeared around a corner.  The guy had somewhere to be, and something else to do besides sit around waiting to talk to me.

Is it too much to ask that a real MMO give me the same level of functionality as a single-player game did fifteen years ago?  Does the term "virtual world" have to denote byzantine poltical/pvp designs for player interaction?  Can't it also apply to making a world that at least pretends to have a purpose beyond shuttling players down the advancement path?  Just pretend!  I know these really are just games about getting leeter swords, but can't one of them at least try to meet me halfway when it comes to suspension of disbelief?

WoW/EQ/DAoC/whatever don't have cities, they have clusters of quest and loot dispensers.

[Xilren's Twin]

Nothing new here; it's games vs world all over again.  Removing the massive part of the online rpg in order to have a deeper world is an idea I like quite a bit.  Same sort of stuff is prevelant in a lot of NWN persistant worlds.

Sad fact is, most Massive game players don't want this worldy stuff b/c it impinges on their desire to have instant gratification.  I want to sell my stuff NOW, so shops/banks can never close.  I want to travel to city X NOW, so transportation runs all day and night every 2 minutes.  I want to buy a sword of uber whacking NOW, so item creation is basically instantaneous.

Small scale games with self selecting populations will always be able to offer much more flexibility and depth.  We just need some middle ground between text Muds and Wow in terms of features, gameplay and graphics.

Xilren

[Furiously]

As long as you are not Hrose calling from Italy and finding the shopkeepers are ALWAYS asleep when you want to play, it's cool.

[HaemishM]

If I'm not mistaken, in U6, you could sleep and thus compress the timeline, correct? Can you do this as a party in this multiplayer version? Because if you can, THAT is why there is no virtual world as you describe, because no individual can compress time so that he doesn't have to wait around 30 minutes for daylight to come and the shops to reopen.

You can bemoan the fact that it's a craving for instant gratification and it is. But that's only a bad thing if you aren't the one who has to wait. If you are, YOU WANT IT NOW.

[Hanzii]

What Haem said.

I don't get to play all the time like you unemployed visionairies. I can't afford to waste gametime for the sun to rise and the bank to open, so I can empty my bags and go out adventuring again. Waiting for spawns is a neccessary evil but I hate the one realistic part of WoW - the realtime clock.
I never get to see the world in daylight. It serves no fucking purpose. It's stupid and only done by a dev catering to the people on 24/7 and interested in worldbuilding. It's not a world and it's not realistic - there's trolls for gods sakes - it's just a game. I want my pony and I won't wait for it, just so you guys can immerse your self.

[Merusk]

Er.. damn.  What H & H said.

Screw worlds, I want games.   There's a market for worlds, sure, but it's smaller than world-proponents would like to believe.

And if you're going to make a world, then the absolute removal of player-evil makes little sense to me.

[Paelos]

Er.. damn.  What H & H said.

Screw worlds, I want games.   There's a market for worlds, sure, but it's smaller than world-proponents would like to believe.

And if you're going to make a world, then the absolute removal of player-evil makes little sense to me.

Single player worlds are ok in my book. For example, I liked the "world" feel of Zelda : Majora's Mask. Sure it was trippy and weird, but it did feel like a functioning world moving independant of your actions.

[Nija]

I'd play something like that. I really hate the item/quest depot crap.

[WindupAtheist]

If I'm not mistaken, in U6, you could sleep and thus compress the timeline, correct? Can you do this as a party in this multiplayer version?

Nope.  Stock up on torches, or get used to walking around in the dark.

Because if you can, THAT is why there is no virtual world as you describe, because no individual can compress time so that he doesn't have to wait around 30 minutes for daylight to come and the shops to reopen.

If this were a problem, one designing a new game could always put in "black market" type merchants who only take their place in the alley at night.  Alternatively, if your crafting system and economy are broad enough, the NPC market might not even mean that much.  Back when UO was at what I personally consider to be it's height, I very rarely bought anything from an NPC.

You can bemoan the fact that it's a craving for instant gratification and it is. But that's only a bad thing if you aren't the one who has to wait. If you are, YOU WANT IT NOW.

I just want a gameworld that isn't utterly static.  I won't demand total fluidity, because that's pie-in-the-sky, but it would be nice if things could at least... fluctuate a little.  Don't let players burn down the village, because we all know that'll lead to a game full of nothing but smoking ruins.  But maybe let them muck around with the local economy, based on what gets bought and sold there.

I don't REALLY need a virtual world.  But I would like it if some of these games tried a little harder at pretending.

[Furiously]

I don't REALLY need a virtual world.  But I would like it if some of these games tried a little harder at pretending.

Sounds like EVE or ATITD would be the game for you. But there are PK's in EVE.

[Merusk]

Er.. damn.  What H & H said.

Screw worlds, I want games.   There's a market for worlds, sure, but it's smaller than world-proponents would like to believe.

And if you're going to make a world, then the absolute removal of player-evil makes little sense to me.

Single player worlds are ok in my book. For example, I liked the "world" feel of Zelda : Majora's Mask. Sure it was trippy and weird, but it did feel like a functioning world moving independant of your actions.

Well, yeah, without a dobut I enjoy Single Player worlds.  I'm talking exclusivly multiplayer, though.  Single player 'worlds' are tailored for ONE person, and
can cheat things and doesn't have to worry about the time it takes to accomplish them since they only have to worry about a single gamer and their impact.  In a multiplayer world you have to account for Joe Catass who is online 24/7.

Inevitably this means things like travel, crafting, and character development will take longer because devs worry about people 'beating' their game and getting out too soon.  They wind-up balancing for the top 1-5% of their game, because that top 1-5% can absolutly ruin economies and ecnomies are what virtual worlds are all about.   Even SWG worried about this, and it's the closest thing you're going to see in a UO-2nd generation "world" game for a long time.  The problem is when you worry about Joe, you fuck over Ed Everyman because it now takes him 13 game sessions to accomplish what joe does in one or two.  That not only gets boring as hell, but it frustrates Ed because he's not seeing mesuarable progress. 

 

I don't REALLY need a virtual world.  But I would like it if some of these games tried a little harder at pretending.

Sounds like EVE or ATITD would be the game for you. But there are PK's in EVE.

I was going to suggest EVE, but then knowing the apoplexy WUA has when around PKs, thought better of it.

[Pococurante]

There's no reason one can't have more human-like interaction with NPCs.  And there's no reason why diurnal behavior has to be on a RL 24-hour cycle.

I'm in the virtual world camp.  I think it's quite possible to have a world that's more than a glorified menu.  We haven't seen them because publishers won't justify the expense to have writers craft flexible conversation trees easily localized to the player's language.  That's why UO NPC interaction was dumbed down - localization.

But even WoW has scripted NPCs events that add a lot to the feel of the world.  The dwarven mortar crew is hilarious...

Whenever I hear arguments against virtual worlds they seem to focus on specific mechanics that can easily be rectified.  There is nothing inherently un-fun about the concept of them - just silly half-hearted implementations we've seen in the past.

[Ironwood]

What really bothers me about the WOW clock is that it doesn't affect anything except the visual.  So why not have it client side ?

Indeed, why have it at all ?

Stupid.

[Calantus]

You guys are all jumping down WUA's throat on this issue when all he is really asking for is aesthetics. He describes some random duder closing up a tavern and going somewhere, but he never says it affected him either way. It was just something he could stop and reflect on and feel more a part of a world. The banks don't have to close, and the shops don't have to close. And if they do, you could always let players wake people up or go to other stores. Also, the convo trees don't have to be harder for players, you can always put in quick ways to buy stuff from people, or people could just get it down to where they quickly hit the 2-3 responses they need and whala, they sold their shit. The localization issue is the only real problem I see brought up here.

What WAU is talking about here is the difference between a play with no props and one with cardboard cutouts haphazardly painted to look somewhat like a background. It doesn't change the core of the play, it's just to help people suspend their disbelief. Frankly, I agree.

[HaemishM]

Isn't empty props what we have now, though? He's bitching about WoW. If you ask me, WoW has one of the more immersive worlds of the gamey-type MMOG's, because while the NPC's are always there and the stupid 24 hr. clock doesn't affect dick, there are little things and events that happen around you all the time. Things like the kids running around Stormwind, guards that talk to each other in some places, etc. But generally, you are so busy with your quests, you don't notice it.

I actually have to give WoW some props for the quest I did last night. It's a rogue-only quest, and used to give me the skill to use poisons. I had to sneak up behind an undead guard at a tower in Westfall, steal a key (without killing him, I could only pickpocket), then sneak into the top of a tower and open a chest without the elite NPC near it spotting me or killing me. I did the quest without killing one thing, but still used my class's abilities. That's cool.

Yet, while doing the quest, I came upon another rogue, much higher level than the quest needed, continually opening and closing the chest in order to train up her lock picking skills. That other person did more to break immersion than the fact that most of the NPC's are just vending machines. IMO, instancing could fix a lot of these problems.

[MrHat]

Isn't empty props what we have now, though? He's bitching about WoW. If you ask me, WoW Alliance side has one of the more immersive worlds of the gamey-type MMOG's, because while the NPC's are always there and the stupid 24 hr. clock doesn't affect dick, there are little things and events that happen around you all the time. Things like the kids running around Stormwind, guards that talk to each other in some places, etc. But generally, you are so busy with your quests, you don't notice it.

I actually have to give WoW some props for the quest I did last night. It's a rogue-only quest, and used to give me the skill to use poisons. I had to sneak up behind an undead guard at a tower in Westfall, steal a key (without killing him, I could only pickpocket), then sneak into the top of a tower and open a chest without the elite NPC near it spotting me or killing me. I did the quest without killing one thing, but still used my class's abilities. That's cool.

Yet, while doing the quest, I came upon another rogue, much higher level than the quest needed, continually opening and closing the chest in order to train up her lock picking skills. That other person did more to break immersion than the fact that most of the NPC's are just vending machines. IMO, instancing could fix a lot of these problems.

Fixed that.

[HaemishM]

Ok, yeah, should have said Alliance because if you don't like brown, the Horde side is dirt boring.

[Merusk]

You guys are all jumping down WUA's throat on this issue when all he is really asking for is aesthetics. He describes some random duder closing up a tavern and going somewhere, but he never says it affected him either way. It was just something he could stop and reflect on and feel more a part of a world. The banks don't have to close, and the shops don't have to close. And if they do, you could always let players wake people up or go to other stores. Also, the convo trees don't have to be harder for players, you can always put in quick ways to buy stuff from people, or people could just get it down to where they quickly hit the 2-3 responses they need and whala, they sold their shit. The localization issue is the only real problem I see brought up here.

What WAU is talking about here is the difference between a play with no props and one with cardboard cutouts haphazardly painted to look somewhat like a background. It doesn't change the core of the play, it's just to help people suspend their disbelief. Frankly, I agree.

He's not asking for aesthetics, though, because WOW has a lot of that stuff, and he feels it sucks.  (As Haemish pointed out) He's asking for a full-on virtual world with shops that close so you can't get at them during certain hours.  Adding-in inconvienance is all a 'world' does because that's what makes reality (i.e. a World) vs gameplay. 

[Pococurante]

Fixed that.

As far as I know there is no Horde equivalent of the Dwarven mortar team but there are scripted events that cycle, like the Warrior Circle in Muldore and the combat circles in UC.  But yeah nothing as funny or involved.

I used to run a UO server that had a lot of scripted events.  It was a closed group of players so while no one ruined it for others it was also an awful lot of work for something that was only interesting the first few times.

[Sky]

I actually have to give WoW some props for the quest I did last night. It's a rogue-only quest, and used to give me the skill to use poisons. I had to sneak up behind an undead guard at a tower in Westfall, steal a key (without killing him, I could only pickpocket), then sneak into the top of a tower and open a chest without the elite NPC near it spotting me or killing me. I did the quest without killing one thing, but still used my class's abilities. That's cool.

Yet, while doing the quest, I came upon another rogue, much higher level than the quest needed, continually opening and closing the chest in order to train up her lock picking skills. That other person did more to break immersion than the fact that most of the NPC's are just vending machines. IMO, instancing could fix a lot of these problems.

So very much yes. That's part of why I loved playing a thief in UO: I never had to kill stuff to advance, which doesn't really make sense for a thief, anyway (that'd be more along the lines of a brigand). Show me the game where I can play like Garrett, amidst other classes playing in a way that fits their class, rather than supporting basic combat classes, and I'm on it. You know, like UO.

One step further would be removing kill-based rewards entirely and just going with use-based. It made so much more sense to hang out with a couple buddies sparring to improve my swords skill, rather than becoming Tardor, Scourge of Bunnykind.

I've been in agreeance with WUA's initial point for a very long time, indeed, coming from my roots as an Ultima fanboi. And I've always addressed the inconvinience issue the same way as he:

If this were a problem, one designing a new game could always put in "black market" type merchants who only take their place in the alley at night.

This could open up a whole new level of roleplaying...does your shiny do-gooder treat with the scurvy pirate at the docks or the questionable blokes in that dark alley? Does he stay true to his virtue and live with inconvinience? Does he look the other way as a squire sells the stuff for him? Lobby his guildmaster to place a night storage box in the paladin's bunkhouse?

Or click "Sell All".

[Pococurante]

Or click "Sell All".

Sadly this is what the lowest common denominator wants.

So we're again looking at niche products that probably would cap around 50-80k subs.

[Merusk]

I've been in agreeance with WUA's initial point for a very long time, indeed, coming from my roots as an Ultima fanboi. And I've always addressed the inconvinience issue the same way as he:

If this were a problem, one designing a new game could always put in "black market" type merchants who only take their place in the alley at night.

This could open up a whole new level of roleplaying...does your shiny do-gooder treat with the scurvy pirate at the docks or the questionable blokes in that dark alley? Does he stay true to his virtue and live with inconvinience? Does he look the other way as a squire sells the stuff for him? Lobby his guildmaster to place a night storage box in the paladin's bunkhouse?

Or click "Sell All".

This is well and good, and in fact I'd like to see more things like it so long as night isn't once every 2 hours.  However, if you're on such a short day/night cycle it again removes some of the 'world' and focuses more on 'game.'  It's a series of trade-offs.

[Strazos]

Ok, yeah, should have said Alliance because if you don't like brown, the Horde side is dirt boring.

The undead areas are much better.

[Nebu]

So we're again looking at niche products that probably would cap around 50-80k subs.

As Haemish has pointed out so many times: what's wrong with being Niche?  Tailored to the right audience a well crafted mmog could still be very profitable despite having a smaller player base. You just have to get used to going out in public without your money hat.

[Pococurante]

I should probably have put my comment in green.  Niche is actually preferred by me.  Being old school I like more intimate communties that are tightly policed.

That's why I play WoW... ;)

But we're not going to see the big studios pushing these products, and the level of visual immersion I require is still beyond the reach of smaller shops.

[Sky]

I should probably have put my comment in green.  Niche is actually preferred by me.  Being old school I like more intimate communties that are tightly policed.

But we're not going to see the big studios pushing these products, and the level of visual immersion I require is still beyond the reach of smaller shops.

Yup.

[WindupAtheist]

He's not asking for aesthetics, though, because WOW has a lot of that stuff, and he feels it sucks.

WoW doesn't have shit.  That little girl NPC whose existence consists solely of running endless laps through Stormwind 24/7, screaming "Gimme back my dolly!" for all eternity is NOT what I'm talking about.  I mean, I thought AO's system of having you do your shopping and whatnot through computer terminals was pretty lame, but really, what's the difference?  A WoW NPC is just a person-shaped terminal that says "Hail!" instead of "Beep!"

(As Haemish pointed out) He's asking for a full-on virtual world with shops that close so you can't get at them during certain hours.  Adding-in inconvienance is all a 'world' does because that's what makes reality (i.e. a World) vs gameplay.

The inconvenience is beside the point, and can be negated by having alternative means of doing business that become available when the shops are closed.  The point is that in a gameworld built on such principles would manage to avoid being completely fucking static.  You might actually have to do things somewhat differently at times, because you might come back to town six hours after leaving, and find that the townsfolk aren't all still standing exactly where you left them.

This is well and good, and in fact I'd like to see more things like it so long as night isn't once every 2 hours.  However, if you're on such a short day/night cycle it again removes some of the 'world' and focuses more on 'game.'  It's a series of trade-offs.

Unless your gameworld is as large as the real world, compressing time makes sense.  Otherwise I'm going to wonder how I'm able to run up and down the length of an entire continent six times in one day.

This could open up a whole new level of roleplaying...does your shiny do-gooder treat with the scurvy pirate at the docks or the questionable blokes in that dark alley? Does he stay true to his virtue and live with inconvinience? Does he look the other way as a squire sells the stuff for him? Lobby his guildmaster to place a night storage box in the paladin's bunkhouse?

Or click "Sell All".

Zounds, Sky and I actually agree!

That's why UO NPC interaction was dumbed down - localization.

And you should have heard the irate screaming on the boards at the time.  People cared about the little details.

[HaemishM]

In a world that has magicians crawling all over it, able to toss giant balls of fire at anything that moves like they were farting napalm, what's the point of having shops that close when it gets dark?

[Pococurante]

Immersion.

[Yegolev]

Ok, yeah, should have said Alliance because if you don't like brown, the Horde side is dirt boring.

The undead areas are much better.

Because they are essentially Alliance areas with perpetual night.  Kalimdor sucks.

[Morfiend]

Ok, yeah, should have said Alliance because if you don't like brown, the Horde side is dirt boring.

The undead areas are much better.

Once you get to level 20 or so, you all share areas, so nether side is the winner. I agree that the Barrens is a lot of brown, but it does make it a lot more cool when you come up to the oasis teaming with life.

Also, one thing I remember, in Kargath, the horde town in the Badlands, there are two undead females talking to each other.

Undead 1: "Have you heard about the new plague?"
Undead 2: "Yeah, its much like the old plague, but with half the calories"

[WindupAtheist]

In a world that has magicians crawling all over it, able to toss giant balls of fire at anything that moves like they were farting napalm, what's the point of having shops that close when it gets dark?

A believable world that operates according to certain mundane rules just might serve to make the magical seem a bit more exotic.  Oh we all know the sheer number of fireball-shooting players is going to keep that from really happening, but the game can at least try.  It can give you a detailed world full of peasants and shepherds and shopkeepers that at least suggests the illusion that not everyone in the world can fart napalm.  As it is, the townsfolk in WoW (or pretty much any MMORPG) don't have enough interactivity or detail to make an aesthetic impact.  The blacksmith isn't a blacksmith, he's just the button you push to repair your armor.

[Pococurante]

In a world that has magicians crawling all over it, able to toss giant balls of fire at anything that moves like they were farting napalm, what's the point of having shops that close when it gets dark?

A believable world that operates according to certain mundane rules just might serve to make the magical seem a bit more exotic.

Don't taunt the Haem. Or I guess these days the Pop too.  They care less about foreplay than having their knob polished.

I'd like a world.  Done right.  For those that can't see past the Past's half-baked implementations I give you your half brain.

[Merusk]

In a world that has magicians crawling all over it, able to toss giant balls of fire at anything that moves like they were farting napalm, what's the point of having shops that close when it gets dark?

A believable world that operates according to certain mundane rules just might serve to make the magical seem a bit more exotic.

Don't taunt the Haem. Or I guess these days the Pop too.  They care less about foreplay than having their knob polished.

I'd like a world.  Done right.  For those that can't see past the Past's half-baked implementations I give you your half brain.

Define your 'world.' How's it going to work, how are things going to fit into place, how's the economy work, etc.  If you can fix things in an enjoyable way that isn't exploitable, you win and should replace Raph as SOE's creative lead. Hell, you'll replace a lot of people as a gaming messiah.

It's a discussion that's beeng ongoing for a long, long, long time in more than just EQ/ UO/ WOW terms and it hasn't worked out yet.  Saying 'do it right' is easy.  It hasn't been done yet, but many continue to try and make the same mistakes.  That is the reason for the cynicism.

Thus far 'world' has meant 'tedious, boring shit to get past until the "real" game' the same as shiny grind fests.  They just lack the spreadsheet attachment to keep track of your numbers.

[Pococurante]

In many ways I'd point to Gemstone3, or at least the GS3 I knew in 1997 as well as the concepts in early UO.  There have been no end of MUDs/Mxx that experimented with real world mechanics with characters that start young, accumulate and age, and peak without being downright godly.

Retention has been defined in the commercial products for years as time treadmill, an intentional effort to force the player to grind towards a mythical endgame.   I suggest the real answer is constantly adding wide expansions, much as Bioware does with premium content releases for NWN.  Tall expansions simply lock in an ever shrinking sub base where one spends millions.  I'd rather spend the millions to broaden the product's appeal.

The answer is to abandon levels as anything more than a statement of character age.  I'd keep race and class, and have racial advantages/penalties.

It's funny you mention Raph since of course his ideas immediately pre-SWG were quite compelling in terms of balancing crafting.  I'd apply the same concept to combat abilities - one can move to a higher skill but has to chose one to give up.  The idea is not that new skills make one godly, they just add different variety to a player's chosen playstyle.

I'd focus my development dollars more on adding non-combat items that allow a player to individualize appearance of their toon, their "vehicle", and their residence.  I'd focus on such non-combat mechanics as learning languages, social customs, etc that allow them to effectively engage new regions on the map and new quests/content (as opposed to the same railed quests pretty much anyone can ride) and there'd be an obvious way to establish brag rights.

Stats would increase minutely beyond the starting rate and would be a UO-style pool to be balanced.  Skills the same.  Neither pool could be so large that one is hopelessly outclassed, e.g. sticking with UO the puniest weakling is about 45, the strongest about 65.  Skill ranges are commeasurate.  Item bonuses would be scaled the same, e.g. tight but not godly versus wormy.

At the end you get a game where "templates" reflect a player's style rather than appealing to min/maxers.  The downside is you have a product that doesn't appeal to min/maxers and catasses.  That's counter to the traditional belief that prefers to addict players and pays lip service that social bonds are more important.  Of course you'd still have the number crunchers but since the differentials are relatively minor there is still wide lattitude for skill to make the difference.

This is a thumbnail.  I appreciate you'd like a design document.  You're free to make me an employment offer and/or a grant & non-compete agreement to draft you a document.  I doubt you're that serious but if you are once knew my vitae you'd probably be confident in a quality deliverable.