SWTOR

[Amaron]

Which still sounds a lot like Shaman.  Not even getting into Feral Druids, where you literally can't do it until level 8 (now, it used to be level 20!).

Edit: and it used to be it took you until level 40 to play as Enhance doing anything other than auto attacking as your melee attack.  For a melee class.

Druid is a much closer example but it's still not really getting there.   Being Shadow is like being Feral without any of the druidy bits.   I'm not arguing that you couldn't make the two classes fit together in a logical way.   I'm just saying that Bioware has chosen not to do so.

[Sjofn]

Edit: and it used to be it took you until level 40 to play as Enhance doing anything other than auto attacking as your melee attack.  For a melee class.

Used to be autoattack period. You just had windfury procs to soothe you.

[Evildrider]

Edit: and it used to be it took you until level 40 to play as Enhance doing anything other than auto attacking as your melee attack.  For a melee class.

Used to be autoattack period. You just had windfury procs to soothe you.

Don't even get me started on leveling as a Paladin!  I think I actually cried a few times.

[Fordel]

Paladins were both boring yet overpowered when that seal was broken and instead of making you swing faster but decreasing your damage per hit to keep the same DPS, it just made you swing faster, the end.

[Nevermore]

Edit: and it used to be it took you until level 40 to play as Enhance doing anything other than auto attacking as your melee attack.  For a melee class.

Used to be autoattack period. You just had windfury procs to soothe you.

Well, you could still shock.

[Nevermore]

Which still sounds a lot like Shaman.  Not even getting into Feral Druids, where you literally can't do it until level 8 (now, it used to be level 20!).

Edit: and it used to be it took you until level 40 to play as Enhance doing anything other than auto attacking as your melee attack.  For a melee class.

Druid is a much closer example but it's still not really getting there.   Being Shadow is like being Feral without any of the druidy bits.   I'm not arguing that you couldn't make the two classes fit together in a logical way.   I'm just saying that Bioware has chosen not to do so.

The argument isn't whether they have or haven't, it's whether they should or shouldn't.  When someone says 'you can't allow AC respeccing because the game play is so disparate', it's easy to point to classes in WoW where the game play is at least as disparate within the class and everyone is fine with it.  It's this disconnect that baffles me.

[Ingmar]

But, I'm sorry, they do have to compete with the WoW of today. It doesn't matter if they launch with as much content as any other game ever. If it's less than WoW's volume TODAY and it becomes an issue?

Except anyone who wants to play through WoW's content already has. I think it's more about can they sustain folks through GW2's launch and the first Rift expansion. BWA has a solid game on their hands, with a ton of launch content, compared to other young games. WoW didn't have shit for content compared to EQ1 when it released, did it?

Sure, plenty of people will stick with WoW because they're invested and their friends play there. Lots of people still play UO or EQ1.

Yeah the amount of content compared to content people have already consumed really is irrelevant. The only thing they have to do is match Blizzard's rate of putting out *new* stuff once people have finished everything they're getting now.

[Mosesandstick]

Why is everyone so focussed on the quantity of content as opposed to the quality?

[Surlyboi]

Same reason people were bitching about the bounty hunter and trooper being mechanically the same even if the look and feel were completely different.

[Simond]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

The cutscenes are fine, story lines are mostly good, and voice acting is excellent.

But sandwiched between that is the steamy turd of quest gameplay mechanics. Well that maybe to harsh, but its just so... mediocre .. that it brings everything else down with it.

Disclaimer: I played the first 2.5 planets only.

This is WoW in 2005, at release. Everything is a kill/fetch/click/collect/comeback.

I cannot think of a single interesting or fun or gimmicky mechanic from the quests at all. There was no vehicle quest, no escort, no NPC interaction outside of cutscenes. It's like their scripting ability is completely non existent.

And the most noticeable part? How unimpressive a "story driven" MMO is without phasing. Your character has no impact on the game world. When you complete an area, nothing happens. You never clear out an outpost, establish a new quest hub; the area you clear on Coruscant never get repopulated or secured. Outside of your class quest hub, NPCs never move, just stand there looking dumb the whole time you are on the planet. And you notice that all the time because you are backtracking back and forth several times to turn in the quests, because porting back mechanic is archaic. Even something as simple as quest giver showing up at the end of the area and offering you a port/ride back would be awesome, but just never happens.

It is such a glaringly weak area of the game that I cannot turn my back to it. Such mediocre game play design should not be tolerated anymore.

[Mosesandstick]

A lot of testers felt the best comparison for the game was WoW classic with a storyline and VO.

[Margalis]

Why is everyone so focussed on the quantity of content as opposed to the quality?

Because it's an MMO.

[Lantyssa]

It sounds like I'd enjoy the Empire side a lot more than Republic, but stupid Slap always has to pick the goody two-shoes side. 

Join me, and together we shall rule the galaxy!

(I'm sure I mangled that.  I'm so bad at quotes...)  Anyways, that's why I pushed for Slap and BC to be rivals.  The Empire stuff is so much more appealing to me.  But I'll have my Republic alts so I can at least say 'hi'.

[Shatter]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

The cutscenes are fine, story lines are mostly good, and voice acting is excellent.

But sandwiched between that is the steamy turd of quest gameplay mechanics. Well that maybe to harsh, but its just so... mediocre .. that it brings everything else down with it.

Disclaimer: I played the first 2.5 planets only.

This is WoW in 2005, at release. Everything is a kill/fetch/click/collect/comeback.

I cannot think of a single interesting or fun or gimmicky mechanic from the quests at all. There was no vehicle quest, no escort, no NPC interaction outside of cutscenes. It's like their scripting ability is completely non existent.

And the most noticeable part? How unimpressive a "story driven" MMO is without phasing. Your character has no impact on the game world. When you complete an area, nothing happens. You never clear out an outpost, establish a new quest hub; the area you clear on Coruscant never get repopulated or secured. Outside of your class quest hub, NPCs never move, just stand there looking dumb the whole time you are on the planet. And you notice that all the time because you are backtracking back and forth several times to turn in the quests, because porting back mechanic is archaic. Even something as simple as quest giver showing up at the end of the area and offering you a port/ride back would be awesome, but just never happens.

It is such a glaringly weak area of the game that I cannot turn my back to it. Such mediocre game play design should not be tolerated anymore.

Questing in TOR is no worse then WOW, Rift or most other MMO's.  In fact I find it better with the voiceovers and quest dialogue instead of text as Im one of those people who just skips quest reading because I cant be bothered.  In Tor I actually find myself listening to the story / quest and taking at least some interest in what Im about to do

[Lantyssa]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

At it's heart, I agree with it.  The storylines are very personal, and the further along you go, the more you'll be doing the same thing as any other class.  To be fair, the story line quests are where you do the more interesting quests.  Both because they have a continuing narrative and because they put a little more effort into them.

What annoys me though is that the starter planets are only for the classes that start there.  If I take my Sith over to Hutta to play with a friend, I cannot get any quests there.  I'm not sure you can even interact with the lore objects now.  All you can do is explore, kill mobs, and collect datacrons.  Maybe you can get log entries for meeting people if you help with someone else's quests, but I haven't tested that.

[Modern Angel]

Yeah, I don't find anything to disagree with there.

It's about the coat of paint and how long it takes before you can see the same wall underneath. Really, I get being drawn in by the voice acting and such. I'm not going to criticize that. What I'll say, and what's going to take a year to prove, is that I don't think people are going to be as tolerant over the same mechanics over the long term as they think they are, and that includes people here. Which is a completely valid way to play, but it's not a valid way for Bioware to keep this behemoth going the way they want.

Which brings is back to the new content machine, as stated. Everything hinges on that, because if there's even a two month period where it's just grinding Huttball or crafting, with all those snazzy cutscenes exhausted as your quest log dissipates, then the bare mechanics are laid out. It really is WoW 2005 once the shiny doodads are pulled off.

Now, like I said, I'm not optimistic they can keep the content going at a good pace. Voice acting is expensive and time consuming. The cut scenes are, in spots, complicated. So we'll see.

I'd add that I think GW2 has every possibility of leeching subs like nobody's business, depending on when they launch.

[Zetor]

My guild's pretty much ok with the entire 2005 wow in space thing... none of us expect to still be playing 3-4 months after launch. At that time GW2 should be gearing up towards an open beta... 

[Sand]

GW2?

I never played the first one because it came across as being very PvP focused and the microtransactions led me to believe it was pay to be awesome.  Neither one of which I like.

Seems like two completely different gamestyles to me SWTOR versus GW2.

[eldaec]

It's the sequel to GW.

[Threash]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

The cutscenes are fine, story lines are mostly good, and voice acting is excellent.

But sandwiched between that is the steamy turd of quest gameplay mechanics. Well that maybe to harsh, but its just so... mediocre .. that it brings everything else down with it.

Disclaimer: I played the first 2.5 planets only.

This is WoW in 2005, at release. Everything is a kill/fetch/click/collect/comeback.

I cannot think of a single interesting or fun or gimmicky mechanic from the quests at all. There was no vehicle quest, no escort, no NPC interaction outside of cutscenes. It's like their scripting ability is completely non existent.

And the most noticeable part? How unimpressive a "story driven" MMO is without phasing. Your character has no impact on the game world. When you complete an area, nothing happens. You never clear out an outpost, establish a new quest hub; the area you clear on Coruscant never get repopulated or secured. Outside of your class quest hub, NPCs never move, just stand there looking dumb the whole time you are on the planet. And you notice that all the time because you are backtracking back and forth several times to turn in the quests, because porting back mechanic is archaic. Even something as simple as quest giver showing up at the end of the area and offering you a port/ride back would be awesome, but just never happens.

It is such a glaringly weak area of the game that I cannot turn my back to it. Such mediocre game play design should not be tolerated anymore.

Questing in TOR is no worse then WOW, Rift or most other MMO's.  In fact I find it better with the voiceovers and quest dialogue instead of text as Im one of those people who just skips quest reading because I cant be bothered.  In Tor I actually find myself listening to the story / quest and taking at least some interest in what Im about to do

That's not true, when i quested in WoW lichking all that stuff he is complaining about there did happen.  Areas were cleared, new quest hubs appeared, the world changed.  Questing in the last zone of lich king made me feel like i was slowly liberating mordor and setting barad dur under siege.

[Pendan]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

The cutscenes are fine, story lines are mostly good, and voice acting is excellent.

But sandwiched between that is the steamy turd of quest gameplay mechanics. Well that maybe to harsh, but its just so... mediocre .. that it brings everything else down with it.

Disclaimer: I played the first 2.5 planets only.

This is WoW in 2005, at release. Everything is a kill/fetch/click/collect/comeback.

I cannot think of a single interesting or fun or gimmicky mechanic from the quests at all. There was no vehicle quest, no escort, no NPC interaction outside of cutscenes. It's like their scripting ability is completely non existent.

And the most noticeable part? How unimpressive a "story driven" MMO is without phasing. Your character has no impact on the game world. When you complete an area, nothing happens. You never clear out an outpost, establish a new quest hub; the area you clear on Coruscant never get repopulated or secured. Outside of your class quest hub, NPCs never move, just stand there looking dumb the whole time you are on the planet. And you notice that all the time because you are backtracking back and forth several times to turn in the quests, because porting back mechanic is archaic. Even something as simple as quest giver showing up at the end of the area and offering you a port/ride back would be awesome, but just never happens.

It is such a glaringly weak area of the game that I cannot turn my back to it. Such mediocre game play design should not be tolerated anymore.

This is what I have been saying. Then I am told "everyone" disagrees with me.

One of the funny things is 2005 WoW did have the scripting, NPC interactive quests, and even a bit of voice acting. Anyone remember the dwarfs doing the target practice in one of the first quests you come across on the road out of the dwarf starting area? I always thought it a shame more quests did not follow its model. The goat boy quest coming out of the night elf starting area was not quite as interactive but was fun to get turned into a frog.

[tmp]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

This is WoW in 2005, at release. Everything is a kill/fetch/click/collect/comeback.

I don't think you need to be a tester to confirm that.

And it's like complaining a manshoot is all about shooting people.

[caladein]

I understand the point I think.  That the core Diku gameplay is laid bare too often in between the cut scenes and dialogue wheel time.  The follow-up that springs to mind is, "Is it because the core gameplay is especially dull or is it that cutscenes and dialogue wheel time don't have enough residual punch (or are too infrequent) to make the rest of one's time enjoyable?"

WoW attacks this problem from both sides: phasing for constant narrative reinforcement (to make up a term) and spicing up the core gameplay through either giving you a new class to play with for a quest or two (Wrath of the Lich King) or introducing raid mechanics to solo quest chains (Cataclysm).  Rift does as well by having a very dynamic environment and generally expecting a bit more of the player gameplay-wise.

LotRO is the more similar case to SWTOR in that it's all in on setting and story and it works there for me at least (as someone that hardly cares about the IP).  Lothlorien feels different from Angmar which feels different from Enedwaith.  How much of that is transmitted to a hypothetical Mr. Plays-without-game-music-and-never-reads-quest-text?  I'd lean towards not much.

[Simond]

Yeah, basically it sounds a little odd having a MMO based around the story while not actually showing any of the impact the story has. Also 'gimmick' quests (vehicles or what have you) break the flow of kill/fetch/delivery nicely so missing them is going to make things a little more monotonous as well.

[Fordel]

They have a gimmick quest system, it's just optional. Space Combat.


It's true there aren't any escort missions, I'm not exactly sad about that either. Then again I was half expecting to rescue another captured Druid (and it's almost always a druid, ever notice that!) on Alderaan. 

[Shatter]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

The cutscenes are fine, story lines are mostly good, and voice acting is excellent.

But sandwiched between that is the steamy turd of quest gameplay mechanics. Well that maybe to harsh, but its just so... mediocre .. that it brings everything else down with it.

Disclaimer: I played the first 2.5 planets only.

This is WoW in 2005, at release. Everything is a kill/fetch/click/collect/comeback.

I cannot think of a single interesting or fun or gimmicky mechanic from the quests at all. There was no vehicle quest, no escort, no NPC interaction outside of cutscenes. It's like their scripting ability is completely non existent.

And the most noticeable part? How unimpressive a "story driven" MMO is without phasing. Your character has no impact on the game world. When you complete an area, nothing happens. You never clear out an outpost, establish a new quest hub; the area you clear on Coruscant never get repopulated or secured. Outside of your class quest hub, NPCs never move, just stand there looking dumb the whole time you are on the planet. And you notice that all the time because you are backtracking back and forth several times to turn in the quests, because porting back mechanic is archaic. Even something as simple as quest giver showing up at the end of the area and offering you a port/ride back would be awesome, but just never happens.

It is such a glaringly weak area of the game that I cannot turn my back to it. Such mediocre game play design should not be tolerated anymore.

Questing in TOR is no worse then WOW, Rift or most other MMO's.  In fact I find it better with the voiceovers and quest dialogue instead of text as Im one of those people who just skips quest reading because I cant be bothered.  In Tor I actually find myself listening to the story / quest and taking at least some interest in what Im about to do

That's not true, when i quested in WoW lichking all that stuff he is complaining about there did happen.  Areas were cleared, new quest hubs appeared, the world changed.  Questing in the last zone of lich king made me feel like i was slowly liberating mordor and setting barad dur under siege.

Great, Give TOR 5 years of live game to do the same then :P

[eldaec]

It sounds a lot like Bioware's typical issue in single player games, they are terrible at integrating story into gameplay. They always tell, never show.

[Threash]

Saw this earlier elsewhere - can one of the testers c/d?

The cutscenes are fine, story lines are mostly good, and voice acting is excellent.

But sandwiched between that is the steamy turd of quest gameplay mechanics. Well that maybe to harsh, but its just so... mediocre .. that it brings everything else down with it.

Disclaimer: I played the first 2.5 planets only.

This is WoW in 2005, at release. Everything is a kill/fetch/click/collect/comeback.

I cannot think of a single interesting or fun or gimmicky mechanic from the quests at all. There was no vehicle quest, no escort, no NPC interaction outside of cutscenes. It's like their scripting ability is completely non existent.

And the most noticeable part? How unimpressive a "story driven" MMO is without phasing. Your character has no impact on the game world. When you complete an area, nothing happens. You never clear out an outpost, establish a new quest hub; the area you clear on Coruscant never get repopulated or secured. Outside of your class quest hub, NPCs never move, just stand there looking dumb the whole time you are on the planet. And you notice that all the time because you are backtracking back and forth several times to turn in the quests, because porting back mechanic is archaic. Even something as simple as quest giver showing up at the end of the area and offering you a port/ride back would be awesome, but just never happens.

It is such a glaringly weak area of the game that I cannot turn my back to it. Such mediocre game play design should not be tolerated anymore.

Questing in TOR is no worse then WOW, Rift or most other MMO's.  In fact I find it better with the voiceovers and quest dialogue instead of text as Im one of those people who just skips quest reading because I cant be bothered.  In Tor I actually find myself listening to the story / quest and taking at least some interest in what Im about to do

That's not true, when i quested in WoW lichking all that stuff he is complaining about there did happen.  Areas were cleared, new quest hubs appeared, the world changed.  Questing in the last zone of lich king made me feel like i was slowly liberating mordor and setting barad dur under siege.

Great, Give TOR 5 years of live game to do the same then :P

That's not how it works and you know it.

[Fordel]

The environments being totally static is a valid criticism, they are. The phased stuff and the dungeons are a fair bit more dynamic, but the general questing areas are pretty much what you see is what you get.

[Sheepherder]

It's true there aren't any escort missions, I'm not exactly sad about that either. Then again I was half expecting to rescue another captured Druid (and it's almost always a druid, ever notice that!) on Alderaan. 

What's that tree dude?  Shay is lost in the harpy infested ruins?  Well that's too fucking bad, isn't it?  Maybe for your next charge you'll remember to tie the fucking bell around their neck.

[Simond]

No escort quests means no Bravo Company or Kingslayer Orkus though.

[koro]

Well Bioware's already got at least rudimentary phasing tech in the game as it is, so hopefullly they can begin applying it on a larger scale post-release, instead of using it to do little more than make group mini-dungeons and the areas for your personal storyline quests.

[Amaron]

The game definitely lacks some of the later bells and whistles WoW came up with.   If they just sit on their ass post release then yea they aren't going anywhere.   The first patch is going to be fairly critical for them.

[Sjofn]

No escorts are fine with me. My sorrow is no riding a storm giant while it crushes hundreds of undead beneath his huge feet.

[Ingmar]

One of the funny things is 2005 WoW did have the scripting, NPC interactive quests, and even a bit of voice acting. Anyone remember the dwarfs doing the target practice in one of the first quests you come across on the road out of the dwarf starting area? I always thought it a shame more quests did not follow its model. The goat boy quest coming out of the night elf starting area was not quite as interactive but was fun to get turned into a frog.

That wasn't "voice acting", that was recycling the mortar team sound clips from War3.