Carbine Studios' "Wildstar"

[Simond]

Wonder how much that Penny Arcade comic cost them.    Reddit seems to love this.  So fucking odd.

It's an decade-later echo of the EQ grognards frothing about Vanguard/Pantheon/etc. There's a whole lot of ex-WoW players who are convinced that TBC (or even vanilla) was the absolute apex of Blizzard's MMO and if only someone would just do it right they'd be a decade younger and playing a diku-clone for the first time all over again.

Chasing the dragon, basically.

Also bear in mind that Wildstar was designed by people who left Blizzard after TBC, so it's hardly surprising that a sci-fi skin over "don't stand in fire or die" raids and "Heroic Slabs group LF Mage"  is the core design. I'm just surprised there isn't a web of mandatory rep grind/attunement/keys/dicksmashing as well.

So... 3 months until the forum whiners get them nerfed into easy-mode?

Psst. You spelt '95% of the playerbase" incorrectly.  

[sam, an eggplant]

So... 3 months until the forum whiners get them nerfed into easy-mode?

The wildstar devs are dismissive, even flippant, about that possibility. I suspect that >90 days in when they hit <500k subs NCsoft will force them to backtrack on that, though, yeah.

Simond, the raids do actually require attunements, and they cannot all be done solo, including getting "silver" medals on all veteran dungeons. You'll basically need to be in a raiding guild, or at least have a solid full balanced and geared group of friends, to get them. The parts that can be done solo include maxing out endgame reputation grinds.

Wildstar truly is a recidivist MMO.

[Ironwood]

Wonder how much that Penny Arcade comic cost them.     Reddit seems to love this.  So fucking odd.

That PA cartoon is utter bullshit.  There's fuck all there except quests.  Jesus Wept guys, don't even hide the commercial.

[sam, an eggplant]

That PA cartoon is utter bullshit.  There's fuck all there except quests. 

I agree. I don't know what the hell they were doing out in the world if they weren't questing. Killing random monsters?

[Rokal]

Maybe the explorer stuff. That opens up to some pretty fun non-quests by the third zone (~level 7/8). Scavenger hunts, jumping puzzles, etc.

Not sure if the other paths open up in similar interesting ways.

[Ironwood]

They're just Quests too !!!

 

[Ironwood]

Also, I took time (that I now want back) to read Tycho's dribblings that accompany the comic :  He's talking utter, utter fucking shite that means nothing.  Such fucking bollocks.  He thinks it looks different in the 'raids' youtube ?  For Fucks Sake, the Shilling is so blatant it's hurting my eyes.

Gah.

And this is from the guy who was strangely enjoying the wee jaunt.  But I was doing quests like 100% of the time because there was NOTHING ELSE.

[Simond]

Simond, the raids do actually require attunements, and they cannot all be done solo, including getting "silver" medals on all veteran dungeons. You'll basically need to be in a raiding guild, or at least have a solid full balanced and geared group of friends, to get them. The parts that can be done solo include maxing out endgame reputation grinds.

Edited for slightly less fit-inducing gif.

[Rokal]

Also, I took time (that I now want back) to read Tycho's dribblings that accompany the comic :  He's talking utter, utter fucking shite that means nothing.  Such fucking bollocks.  He thinks it looks different in the 'raids' youtube ?  For Fucks Sake, the Shilling is so blatant it's hurting my eyes.

To be fair, that description applies to every one of Tycho's posts.

When I was playing Rift I remember losing hours of time to world/zone events, without any questing, before I realized how much time had past. I'm not sure how far Wildstar leans into that stuff towards level 50, but it's possible for an MMO in 2014 to hide the fact that you're just working through another version of a quest. SWTOR class story quests also felt like something other than MMO leveling quests, even though that's absolutely what they were.

[Zetor]

In recent memory, TSW and (oddly enough) ESO were the games that tried to do something else with quests... maybe FFXIV, though it felt awkward and annoying all the way through, especially since you had to do every single quest or be stuck grinding. Of course having singleplayer-y quests also means that I'm never levelling more than one character through them.

Heroic Slabs group LF Mage

THERE IS NO "S" IN LABORATORY

*deep breaths* OK, I'm fine now. Everything is fine.  

edit: see, even Bliz agrees with me!

[Simond]

Heroic Slabs group LF Mage

THERE IS NO "S" IN LABORATORY

[Simond]

Oh my goodness, the PR gretchen at Carbine must be having kittens about now: http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/05/19/wildstar-developer-says-it-wants-to-do-wow-right-this-time/

"Ok, we're done with WoW, we know what we did right and what we did wrong, and we really want to tweak it and do WoW but better."

Nothing quite like making a rod for your own back.

[Fabricated]

lmao yeah this game is doomed.

[Trippy]

They failed on either / both goals. I.e. it's not a better WoW and it's not a better non-WoW.

[Paelos]

It's one thing to ignore WoW. It's another thing to admit you want to do it "right" which is just an absurd notion.

[Fabricated]

Not even Blizzard can do WoW right anymore. Kinda the height of hubris to say that, especially now.

[Ironwood]

I'm starting to understand so very much.

This is going to be hugely, hugely niche.

[Typhon]

Maybe their plan is, "get the hardcore hooked, then slowly raise rates".  In the end they'll have a couple thousand rich catasses paying a couple hundred a month.  It! could! work!

[sam, an eggplant]

I'm starting to understand so very much.

This is going to be hugely, hugely niche.

I dunno. If you have WoW in your head as context, it's difficult to see how Wildstar's approach could be tenable.

But think about Guild Wars 2. It has vanishingly little power progression in the elder game. There are no WoW-style raids. And yet it has managed to be very successful as a buy to play title supported by largely cosmetic microtransactions.

What do elder game players actually do in GW2? They engage in large-scale PvP, run repetitive dungeons (fractals), and consume new regularly released content.

That stuff applies to Wildstar too. It has 40v40 PvP in warplots, where your faction constructs giant fortresses and uses them to fight your opponents. It has repetitive dungeons coming out the wazoo, with high difficulty levels for small groups. The devs committed to regular content releases on a monthly basis, including lore solo instances and easier-difficulty "adventures" and "shiphand missions". And in addition to all that stuff, they also have aspirational extremely challenging content in veteran dungeons and raids.

I strongly feel Wildstar's approach is wrongheaded. Players should be able to consume all the content, at a challenge level suited to their aspirations and available time. Feeding the dragon by releasing high-quality content and lore intended to be consumed by <5% of the playerbase just feels like a flat-out absurd proposition. We already know LFR is hugely popular. Casual players desperately want to participate. Power progression really, really matters; it's the hook that keeps players engaged. As the most evolved of all dikus, WoW taught us all these things.

But hey, we could be wrong. Maybe another way could work. And if not, NCsoft will force Carbine to casual it up.

[Rokal]

Oh my goodness, the PR gretchen at Carbine must be having kittens about now: http://www.pcgamer.com/2014/05/19/wildstar-developer-says-it-wants-to-do-wow-right-this-time/

"Ok, we're done with WoW, we know what we did right and what we did wrong, and we really want to tweak it and do WoW but better."

Nothing quite like making a rod for your own back.

This is from an official interview with a producer on the game where he frequently uses words like "casuals" and "hardcores" to explain the game. Embarassing.

Still looking forward to doing the dungeon content with friends before it gets nerfed though. We all know that is how this story ends. I think the devs know this as well, as they have alluded to the game getting easier over time.

[Nebu]

I think it's brilliant.  You release the content with a higher difficulty giving the hardcore fans the illusion that they are the target audience.  You then reduce the difficulty AFTER the fanboys have consumed the content appeasing the masses and giving them something new to do a month or two later.  It's a decent way to gatekeep content so long as you don't alienate the casual playerbase early on. 

[Typhon]

That's WoW's model.  How is taking someone else's model brilliant?

Maybe I'm wrong.  How is that not WoW's model?

[Nebu]

That's WoW's model.  How is taking someone else's model brilliant?

Maybe I'm wrong.  How is that not WoW's model?

Does it matter whose model it is if it makes money?

[Numtini]

Never in a million years did it occur to me that they wouldn't nerf the content to be easier by the time I got high enough to see it.

[Fabricated]

I'm starting to understand so very much.

This is going to be hugely, hugely niche.

I dunno. If you have WoW in your head as context, it's difficult to see how Wildstar's approach could be tenable.

But think about Guild Wars 2. It has vanishingly little power progression in the elder game. There are no WoW-style raids. And yet it has managed to be very successful as a buy to play title supported by largely cosmetic microtransactions.

What do elder game players actually do in GW2? They engage in large-scale PvP, run repetitive dungeons (fractals), and consume new regularly released content.

That stuff applies to Wildstar too. It has 40v40 PvP in warplots, where your faction constructs giant fortresses and uses them to fight your opponents. It has repetitive dungeons coming out the wazoo, with high difficulty levels for small groups. The devs committed to regular content releases on a monthly basis, including lore solo instances and easier-difficulty "adventures" and "shiphand missions". And in addition to all that stuff, they also have aspirational extremely challenging content in veteran dungeons and raids.

I strongly feel Wildstar's approach is wrongheaded. Players should be able to consume all the content, at a challenge level suited to their aspirations and available time. Feeding the dragon by releasing high-quality content and lore intended to be consumed by <5% of the playerbase just feels like a flat-out absurd proposition. We already know LFR is hugely popular. Casual players desperately want to participate. Power progression really, really matters; it's the hook that keeps players engaged. As the most evolved of all dikus, WoW taught us all these things.

But hey, we could be wrong. Maybe another way could work. And if not, NCsoft will force Carbine to casual it up.

This is NCSoft; they'll just roll the game up and fire like 3/4ths of the staff.

[Typhon]

That's WoW's model.  How is taking someone else's model brilliant?

Maybe I'm wrong.  How is that not WoW's model?

Does it matter whose model it is if it makes money?

No.  Different topic - I hate that model.

[Nebu]

No.  Different topic - I hate that model.

I agree with you.  I hate that model too.  I hated when they made Rift content easier.  I hated it when they made WoW content easier.  The challenge is what kept me and my group playing.  When it got easier, it got boring... and we all quit for another game.

[Threash]

That's WoW's model.  How is taking someone else's model brilliant?

Maybe I'm wrong.  How is that not WoW's model?

That has been WoW's model for at least eight years.

[Outlawedprod]

Also, I took time (that I now want back) to read Tycho's dribblings that accompany the comic :  He's talking utter, utter fucking shite that means nothing.  Such fucking bollocks.  He thinks it looks different in the 'raids' youtube ?  For Fucks Sake, the Shilling is so blatant it's hurting my eyes.

They also posted about the open beta when it started.  I don't regularly read their posts but I suspect they've been on the bandwagon for some time.
http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/05/09/wildstar

CVG interview at http://www.computerandvideogames.com/463542/interviews/interview-wildstar-doing-wow-right-this-time/ one word comes to mind: hubris

[Draegan]

I think it's brilliant.  You release the content with a higher difficulty giving the hardcore fans the illusion that they are the target audience.  You then reduce the difficulty AFTER the fanboys have consumed the content appeasing the masses and giving them something new to do a month or two later.  It's a decent way to gatekeep content so long as you don't alienate the casual playerbase early on. 

They have stated in older interviews that they had always planned to nerf content as it gets older and new harder "bleeding edge" shit was released.

[Nebu]

They have stated in older interviews that they had always planned to nerf content as it gets older and new harder "bleeding edge" shit was released.

I'm aware.  I stated as much earlier in this thread.

[Draegan]

I was just confirming your statement for others.

[Simond]

That's WoW's model.  How is taking someone else's model brilliant?

Maybe I'm wrong.  How is that not WoW's model?

That has been WoW's model for at least eight years.

It stopped being WoW's model after Cataclysm was such a fuck-up. Raiding isn't "nerf to easy after the poopsockers have their fun" any more, it's parallel paths.

[Riggswolfe]

I think casuals have, for the most part, won the MMO war and you ignore that at your peril. I don't know a single person anymore that wants to play an MMO for 8 hours in teamspeak to do some raid. We all want to log in for 2-3 hours, get a bit done, then log out. Admittedly, this is anecdotal but the design most MMOS have adopted seems to support it. It may have to do with the average age of game players overall is aging.

Edit: I fixed it to reflect the English is my first language!

[sam, an eggplant]

They have stated in older interviews that they had always planned to nerf content as it gets older and new harder "bleeding edge" shit was released.

Did they? I was not aware of that. Recently they seemed to indicate otherwise. They got snarky when people asked if they would nerf difficulty, replying with just "no".

Obviously there'll be catchup mechanisms when new content gets released, and they'll allow players to attack old content with better gear and youtube guides. But that's different than a straight-up nerf.