SWTOR

[Lakov_Sanite]

I miss when star wars had alien races with wildly different body types.  When did it become star trek where everyone has the same basic structure?

[Lantyssa]

It makes it easier for animators.  Though I agree.  There really needs to be more non-humanoid races.

[Mrbloodworth]

It makes it easier for animators.

Ehhh.... It makes it more simple to implement for all, art, programing, and also data storing, overhead, disk streaming as well as updating later.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I know 'why' they do it.  It's the same reason star trek did it but weird alien races were 'always' what seperated the two for me.  Star trek was about the science and tech, star wars was the fantasy and wonder.  Looking at more and more screenshots of SWTOR and all these races they're adding all I could think was "wow, lots of humans"

[Velorath]

Actually the argument is more that story driven games best suit a single player experience. The ability to combine a personally driven experience in a shared context still remains to be proven in action. Both that it is possible and a good idea / valid use of resources.

... and part of the reason we don't read the story is because "In Guild Wars 2, our event system won't make you read a huge quest description to find out what's going on. You'll experience it by seeing and hearing things in the world. If a dragon is attacking, you won't read three paragraphs telling you about it, you'll see buildings exploding in giant balls of fire, and hear characters in the game world screaming about a dragon attack.". WoW believes the same. Though of course in SWTOR it's being forced to sit there and have the text read at you.

Wow, what a total breath of fresh air this argument is.

[Sky]

Can someone tell me the /loc of that argument, I skipped right over the post. Also, please give me the walkthrough on how to win it and some cheats. Thanks.

[Fordel]

So four classes per side, that then split into two classes each, which also have two distinct talent trees.


I'm sure this will all be balanced in the end.  



-edit- I forgot about the third shared skill tree to boot!

[eldaec]

You say that as if 4 mirrored classes with 2 spec lines each is a large number of classes. I'm guessing/hoping the number is that small in order to keep the 8 storylines distinctive and interesting.

Plus thus is primarily a pve game so who cares about balance really.

[Ingmar]

We have yet to see just how mirrored the mirrored classes will be, though. There's a potential balance issue looming, Fordel has it right.

[Lantyssa]

Plus thus is primarily a pve game so who cares about balance really.

We don't actually know that.  We still know surprisingly little.

[Pezzle]

I would guess pvp being opt in/certain places only.

[Sky]

Though I may be the only one looking forward to TOR, EQ2 already did that experiment. People don't want to be generic sorcerer for twenty levels then suddenly be the class they want to be. Maybe with the iconic base classes and story-heavy game experience it might be different, though. I'm willing to give them a chance on that one.

But skill trees require respec-ability. Period. You don't punish players for bad choices and you don't make a respec punitively difficult to achieve, either.

[Soln]

that article up today about adding the Voss to the EU gameworld makes me want to play.  A Voss that is.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Don't skim over the fact that even though there are two and a half talent trees per class if you pick [Tank jedi] you are more than likely going to be stuck as [tank jedi] unless you re-roll.  I cannot stress hard enough how badly this will go over with the vast majority of players that pick this game up.  Grind for X levels, pick your final class and then discover you don't like it? Whoops sorry, gotta go back to level one, delete your char or make a new one!

Granted, they 'could' add some kind of class respec but does anyone really see that as likely since they are setting everything up to be so story driven as they say?

[Lantyssa]

Since the advanced class choice isn't supposed to affect the story, I don't see why allowing respecs would either.  It's still baffles me that talent trees are the best they could do, however it doesn't mean they're that stupid.

[Draegan]

Talent trees are a staple of the genre, I don't think there are any other ways to do it.  How else do you assign skills and abilities other than just giving them to the person?

[Malakili]

Talent trees are a staple of the genre, I don't think there are any other ways to do it.  How else do you assign skills and abilities other than just giving them to the person?

Well, there are other options, but they aren't very good for games with classes (and some would argue they aren't good for games without classes either  )  For instance, Champions Online doesn't have talent trees, neither does EVE Online two extremely different types of MMOs.  It is possible, but it isn't necessarily always desirable.  You can only give a Dark Jedi so many "talent" options before hes no longer a dark jedi.

[Lantyssa]

<cough> Guild Wars <cough>

[eldaec]

Talent trees are a staple of the genre, I don't think there are any other ways to do it.  How else do you assign skills and abilities other than just giving them to the person?

Well, there are other options, but they aren't very good for games with classes (and some would argue they aren't good for games without classes either  )  For instance, Champions Online doesn't have talent trees, neither does EVE Online two extremely different types of MMOs.  It is possible, but it isn't necessarily always desirable.  You can only give a Dark Jedi so many "talent" options before hes no longer a dark jedi.

My eve online and CO have talent trees.

Skills in both are unlocked by pre requisites including other skills and/or levels. It's all functionally equivalent to talent trees you've seen on rpgs ever since d&d.

[Ratman_tf]

My eve online and CO have talent trees.

Skills in both are unlocked by pre requisites including other skills and/or levels. It's all functionally equivalent to talent trees you've seen on rpgs ever since d&d.

When did D&D get talent trees? When I played, it wasn't a tree. Just a progression of THACO and abilities.

[DLRiley]

Don't skim over the fact that even though there are two and a half talent trees per class if you pick [Tank jedi] you are more than likely going to be stuck as [tank jedi] unless you re-roll.  I cannot stress hard enough how badly this will go over with the vast majority of players that pick this game up.  Grind for X levels, pick your final class and then discover you don't like it? Whoops sorry, gotta go back to level one, delete your char or make a new one!

Granted, they 'could' add some kind of class respec but does anyone really see that as likely since they are setting everything up to be so story driven as they say?

I have developed a few "I won't play you rules" and one of those rules is not being able to respec. Once I discover that respeccing is either nonexistent or so out of the way and hard to do that there might as well be no respeccing I uninstall. Seriously this is not 2003, i am not playing any game with a web browser up.

[Draegan]

Guild Wars just gave you skills or you found/unlocked them.  Then you slotted them for play.  The slotting part is a different mechanism than talent trees; and that mechanism I really like.

[Merusk]

My eve online and CO have talent trees.

Skills in both are unlocked by pre requisites including other skills and/or levels. It's all functionally equivalent to talent trees you've seen on rpgs ever since d&d.

When did D&D get talent trees? When I played, it wasn't a tree. Just a progression of THACO and abilities.

Skills selection of 3rd ED mutated more into what may as well be considered talent trees in 4th I hear. 

Anywho, yeah, talent trees are a year 2000+ invention, not part of older RPGs.

[Rendakor]

In third edition D&D many feats operate like talent trees.

[Malakili]

Talent trees are a staple of the genre, I don't think there are any other ways to do it.  How else do you assign skills and abilities other than just giving them to the person?

Well, there are other options, but they aren't very good for games with classes (and some would argue they aren't good for games without classes either  )  For instance, Champions Online doesn't have talent trees, neither does EVE Online two extremely different types of MMOs.  It is possible, but it isn't necessarily always desirable.  You can only give a Dark Jedi so many "talent" options before hes no longer a dark jedi.

My eve online and CO have talent trees.

Skills in both are unlocked by pre requisites including other skills and/or levels. It's all functionally equivalent to talent trees you've seen on rpgs ever since d&d.

Ok, we are defining this way different then, if you simply mean skills that have other skills as prerequisites, then sure.  However, I assumed it to mean 2 or 3 predefined roles than your character can specialize in, which is something different I think.

[Draegan]

There are specialization classes in Neverwinter Nights.

[Pezzle]

A prerequisite is not the same as a talent tree.  I know the lines can be blurred but there are differences.  A prerequisite may be involved in a talent tree or not.  It represents a more basic determination.  You must be this smart to master making campfires(anyone) vs you must be a Pyromancer if you wish to learn the fantastic and difficult arts of fire belching (must be a pyromancer).  As systems go, I prefer prerequisites. 

[eldaec]

A prerequisite is not the same as a talent tree.  I know the lines can be blurred but there are differences.  A prerequisite may be involved in a talent tree or not.  It represents a more basic determination.  You must be this smart to master making campfires(anyone) vs you must be a Pyromancer if you wish to learn the fantastic and difficult arts of fire belching (must be a pyromancer).  As systems go, I prefer prerequisites. 

Isn't that just the difference between class based and not class based?

SWG and UO are more examples of talent trees without classes.

[Count Nerfedalot]

If we all wish hard enough, Tinkerbell will come back to life too.

Wait, what?  Tinkerbell is dead???   

[Pezzle]

Isn't that just the difference between class based and not class based?

SWG and UO are more examples of talent trees without classes.

I suppose so.  Unfortunately it is the accepted norm to have what your characters can do strictly defined in several layers.  It starts with classes and then you get socked with talent trees.  Having classes is fine.  The ideas are so tightly wed when it comes to most MMO's it is actually bothersome.  I guess it is easier to balance for.

[Sky]

Some days I love the utter bitchiness of f13.

[Draegan]

Isn't that just the difference between class based and not class based?

SWG and UO are more examples of talent trees without classes.

I suppose so.  Unfortunately it is the accepted norm to have what your characters can do strictly defined in several layers.  It starts with classes and then you get socked with talent trees.  Having classes is fine.  The ideas are so tightly wed when it comes to most MMO's it is actually bothersome.  I guess it is easier to balance for.

I kind of like having my character defined and in different ways.  I don't know why it's unfortunate unless you enjoy playing games as weird configuration of hybrid stuff.

[Malakili]

unless you enjoy playing games as weird configuration of hybrid stuff.

That describes me really well.  When I was playing D&D 3rd edition, for instance, almost every character I played tried to incorporate non standard feats and skills for my character class, and i often multiclassed as well.  Even in Torchlight recently I've enjoyed the flexibility you gain by having shared abilities in the talent trees across the different classses, because it lets me do things like having a Vanquisher summoner, or caster destroyer, and so forth.    I love quirky builds and seeing how well I can do compared to the "cookie cutter" builds.

[Sky]

Quirky builds = tank mage. Throw in grouping and if you're not FotM, you're a lonely, lonely quirky builder. MMO, such a great genre. Distills everything to it's very essence, sucking the life and enjoyment out of gaming and pooping it into a sock.

[Nonentity]

http://www.swtor.com/info/systems/advanced-classes

Same shit we already knew, with no new info. But now it's on the official site! Hooray!