Rift: Planes of Telara

[Kageru]

Being able to respec at will only solves one half of the balance problem. Indeed it amplifies the problem of having a number of classes that are played only by the special snowflakes and those very bad at understanding game mechanics. Who are still going to complain that their class of choice seems unwanted. Not to mention development effort being spent on souls that are B-grade.

[Spiff]

(if you can even rez at a different GY than the one you get ported to when you die; I know you can't in WoW). Is non-instanced PvP even possible before level 30?

You can, and it is.
Although you can't rez at a GY from the opposing faction (Guardian gets a rez-angel, Defiant a rez-engineer).
Also the guards in the starting areas will spot stealth from a mile off and oneshot you at those levels (was a bit bored at the end of beta 4 and went for a little romp through Defiant territory with my rogue).

The thing with rogues is on the one hand they have the most varied options with their souls imo (tied with clerics maybe) and, and this is obviously a big one, there is only a single soul in the entire game that gets truly viable stealth.
Assassin is the only tree that offers a +30% runspeed and stealth-strength perk, which makes a huge difference ime.

Looking into the crystal ball again: that one soul more than any other will show if they're willing to nerf a soul simply because of the cries coming from PvP.

[Typhon]

How does the perma-stealth class/spec do damage?  I.e. does it have access to sap, stun, massive damage from stealth?  I hate that shit, DAOC and WoW have basically worn out my tolerance for it.

[Nebu]

How does the perma-stealth class/spec do damage?  I.e. does it have access to sap, stun, massive damage from stealth?  I hate that shit, DAOC and WoW have basically worn out my tolerance for it.

This.  Stealth + stun is a game killer for me, particularly in pvp.  The recent mention of choke points above immediately reminded me of the stealther hordes that used to congregate at gates in DAoC.

[Xanthippe]

It seemed to me in my brief time playing (last weekend) that, on the servers I played on (pvp-rp), the Defiant side was more heavily populated than the Guardian side.  It also seemed to me that the Defiants were younger with chat devolving at times toward Barrens chat. 

I'm interested in hearing others' impressions of the two sides.

[Segoris]

How does the perma-stealth class/spec do damage?  I.e. does it have access to sap, stun, massive damage from stealth?  I hate that shit, DAOC and WoW have basically worn out my tolerance for it.

This.  Stealth + stun is a game killer for me, particularly in pvp.  The recent mention of choke points above immediately reminded me of the stealther hordes that used to congregate at gates in DAoC.

It does have all Typhon listed, though "massive damage" is a bit of a stretch. I haven't found it to be nearly as bad as it seems they sacrifice some damage to keep their utility they've been known to have over the years, but it's still there. How that scales and plays out at 50 with geared rogues vs other geared players I don't know.

Also, what choke points? If you mean the area going between zones where there were guards then I believe that is only the first two zones since after those the zones seem to be shared. Also, for the most part, the guards seem to be equal level to the zone you're in.

It seemed to me in my brief time playing (last weekend) that, on the servers I played on (pvp-rp), the Defiant side was more heavily populated than the Guardian side.  It also seemed to me that the Defiants were younger with chat devolving at times toward Barrens chat. 

I'm interested in hearing others' impressions of the two sides.

Defiant were much more populated when racials were in, but the last two betas guardians have increased their numbers pretty greatly. As for attitudes - I feel I have more of the "wow kiddies" on defiant side than I did on my guardian character. I believe that is a part of almost all of us on this site simply getting old(er).

[Threash]

The assassin soul is basically the wow rogue.  Not nearly as bursty though, but it has damn near the same exact abilities.

[Segoris]

I think that is a better way to put it. The not nearly as bursty is a big positive side though due to the difference in how much less burst the rift assassin has.

[Typhon]

Thanks for the info. 

Why this ends up being a concern to me is that I play casually, so I'm typically at the weak end of the gear race.  So my experience ends up being under-geared in fight where the enemy gets to pick when and where the fight happens and I spend the first few seconds of that fight doing nothing.  If I can see the enemy coming, I have some input into where and if combat occurs.  If I can't see you coming, all too frequently combat occurs while I'm already fighting something else - what rogue picks to initiate a fight when you are at your best?  So I get to eat the rogue's stun, the rogue's damage, the mobs damage, and since I'm under-geared I probably couldn't beat them anyway.

That doesn't sound like 'fun' to me.

[Nebu]

I'm with you Typhon, particularly since I enjoy pvp.  What it ends up being isn't just a single rogue unstealthing with a stun and an advantage, but 3 or 4 rogues unstealthing on solos.  I need to spend more time in the betas to see how the pvp mechanics will play out.  Things like cc immunity timers, resistance builds, avoidance rates, role of gear in pvp, etc will all have an impact on my decision to play at release. 

Who am I kidding?  If enough of you roll on the same server, I'll play for the 3-4 weeks that Bat Country exists.   

[Zetor]

I'm actually seriously considering this game (some of my guildies are going crazy about it, and I've spent my $ on far worse stuff before  )... but even though I consider myself a 'not overly terrible' pvper, I wouldn't play on a pvp server as long as the ruleset stays as it is now.

Re cleric nerfs: what happened, exactly? Are the cabalist / inq souls still 'dps-viable'? And on the flipside, is the chloromancer capable of solo-healing instances? Ta.

[Morfiend]

Like I said, if anyone wants to brave the PVP-RP server (no rp required) you are welcome to join up with me and my little band of guys. I think right now we have like 7 or 10 semi casual players. Should be fun.

[Ceryse]

Re cleric nerfs: what happened, exactly? Are the cabalist / inq souls still 'dps-viable'? And on the flipside, is the chloromancer capable of solo-healing instances? Ta.

Chloros are quite capable of solo healing an instance. In this last beta I brought my Mage from level 17 to level 35, using Chloro primarily in the instances. I found that I could solo heal everything I could on my various Clerics (whether Sentinel heavy builds, or Warden heavy builds) with the Chloro, but that at times the oh-shit buttons were missed, but unlike my Clerics I never had anyone die as a Chloro, just a couple times on heavy spike damage bosses where it came close. At times, I found the Chloro an easier healer class because I never ran into mana problems, trash and bosses went down faster (as even I was dpsing) and all around it was less stressful than my Clerics. I'll also argue that a bard+chloro mesh far better than a bard+cleric, simply due to how the heal mechanics of each work, but its semi-irrelevant as if you have any kind of healer-support (such as a bard) healing becomes simple, and stress-free excepting a couple boss fights, for all the few PuGs that will let you experience it.

Re; nerfs to Clerics.. several things happened; dps clerics got nailed by the weapon AP normalization on white hits, as they tended to be more reliant on white damage to keep their dps up compared to Rogues, mages and warriors, additionally they made several changes to the Shaman tree they simply cut at their damage with a chainsaw, with the changes to Vengeance of the Winter Storm and related talents in the tree being removed and the base damage nerfed (this change was probably necessary for top level balancing, as it could proc like mad, often off other procs even), and by putting the 36 passive in the roots they seem to have aimed at forcing Shamans to go 51 deep into the tree to regain that lost damage, in spite of the fact you'd have to take a lot of really bad talents to get there.

Healing wise, they literally murdered the regen abilities of the Sentinel (removed the 31-point talent that granted mana regen on a 2 minute cd for.. haste!, which the sentinel needed far less than the mana regen, although it does give Sentinels another oh-shit button) and badly nerfed the mana regen talent for Wardens.

Possibly more important than any of that, however, they still refuse to even acknowledge the block issue for Justicar tanks.

All this said, I still enjoyed Clerics, and they are still viable in (almost) every way they can be built (dps, healing, tanking), just a couple 'wtf' changes, basically, that made a whole lot of no sense. Still, I found the Chloro far more enjoyable than any Cleric healing, that even gives poly? Definitely something I want to level with for dungeons and such, though I'll keep Cleric as a main (for some reason I want to have faith it'll become more fun at higher levels).

[Nebu]

Like I said, if anyone wants to brave the PVP-RP server (no rp required) you are welcome to join up with me and my little band of guys. I think right now we have like 7 or 10 semi casual players. Should be fun.

Dumb question: What does a pvp server offer beyond the ability to grief lower level players in open areas?  Is there a mechanic on pvp servers that will make them more interesting from a pvp perspective? 

[EWSpider]

Like I said, if anyone wants to brave the PVP-RP server (no rp required) you are welcome to join up with me and my little band of guys. I think right now we have like 7 or 10 semi casual players. Should be fun.

Dumb question: What does a pvp server offer beyond the ability to grief lower level players in open areas?  Is there a mechanic on pvp servers that will make them more interesting from a pvp perspective? 

I'm no expert, so hopefully someone else can clarify, but from what I understand the only difference is that on a PvP server when you enter a shared zone you are automatically flagged for PvP.  On a PvE server when you enter a shared zone you are protected by the flag.

[Nebu]

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but all I've found that differs on a pvp server in most mmos is the asshole/normal player ratio.  It's a collection of players that seem to believe that playing on a pvp server automagically makes them better and/or more hardcore players.  While I enjoy the tension that playing on a pvp server adds, I also find that the diskish behavior detracts from the normal quest grind once the high level population is hitting a critical mass.  If I'm going to play on a pvp server, I'd like to know that the incentive for an active pvp environment is going to be greater... and I mean beyond just inhibiting low level players from doing simple quests.  

Anecdotal examples: PvP quality was much higher on the DAoC pve servers.  PvP on Mordred was almost uniformly worse in quality.  In WoW, the pvp really just devolved into high level players on flyers preying on people leveling in the BC and LK areas.  It seemed almost pointelss as a mechanic beyond just griefing.  At cap, players rarely engaged in pvp in the open areas because there was no point in it.  From personal experience, the only pvp servers I enjoyed were in EQ and AC.  In EQ there was corpse looting... which made the whole thing interesting.  At least early on.

[Typhon]

I don't think you are being a jerk at all.  Sounds like we've had a similar experience.  When choosing a WoW server, I just assumed that the experience would be similar to DAOC, since WoW seemed to be taking the best features from every game.  Discovered that PvP only happened when it was inconvenient for me.  It brings only annoyance to the PvE experience, and non-PvP servers have battlegrounds.

So now I want to know ahead of time - what exactly is "open-PvP" bringing to the table?  If there is no relic or keeps to fight over, nothing to bring the community together, how exactly is open-PvP bringing fun to the table?

[Morfiend]

For me, playing on a PVP server makes the game feel more interesting. I find that with how linear a lot of these MMOs are now, that on a PVE server, I basically feel like I am playing a single player game with a chatbox. Thats not what I want in a MMO. On a PVP server, there is risk or being killed, there is a feeling that yes, someone else can influence my gameplay. It makes the whole experience feel more exciting.

I dont know the exact rules of the Rift PVP servers, but I believe they are basically the same as WoW. Contested zones having both sides flagged, etc. This is fine with me, I like the PVP. Yeah, sometimes it sucks to be ganked or camped of what have you, but a lot of my fondest memories in MMO gaming have happened because of situations like that. Several lowbies ganging together to take out a stronger player who is trying to gank. I find it a fair trade off.

I dont begrudge anyone who doesnt like that, and I think PVE servers are fine, but for me, I just get bored when playing on them. I do not have a "I am better mentalit" like some do, I find I start playing on autopilot, and not really paying attention to my surroundings and just "ding, gratz". Its not for me. The only games where I do play on PVE servers, are ones with horrible PVP rulesets, like EQ2.

The reason we picked RP-PVP is because those servers generally have a lesser population of asshat PVPers.

[Rendakor]

I agree with Morfiend entirely. I'll also add that being on a PVP server gives you the opportunity to gank other players who may be competing for your harvesting nodes/quest mobs, which I'm a big fan of.

[ghost]

The ideal combination would be if you could have PvP and PvE areas together on the same server so there was no need for a PvP specific server.  That would be similar to what Warhammer did, that way if you want PvP for a bit and that exhilarating feeling you can just duck into one of the PvP specific areas.  And if you want to be left the fuck alone you could go grind pigs in the PvE area. 

[Nebu]

Why not just do what DAoC did years ago? Give more experience for killing mobs and doing quests in the pvp zones.  Simple risk vs reward.  I leveled almost exclusively in the frontiers on mobs because it was faster and better cash.  It also had the added bonus of letting me kill anyone that started to take my spawns.  Win-win.   

[Shatter]

I don't think you are being a jerk at all.  Sounds like we've had a similar experience.  When choosing a WoW server, I just assumed that the experience would be similar to DAOC, since WoW seemed to be taking the best features from every game.  Discovered that PvP only happened when it was inconvenient for me.  It brings only annoyance to the PvE experience, and non-PvP servers have battlegrounds.

So now I want to know ahead of time - what exactly is "open-PvP" bringing to the table?  If there is no relic or keeps to fight over, nothing to bring the community together, how exactly is open-PvP bringing fun to the table?

As far as I am aware there is nothing like this.  Im not sure the opposing faction can take over and claim areas on the map either although I always see the popups that say "Defiant Controlled" so does that mean Guardians can go there and take that area and make it "Guardian Controlled"?  Not sure.  I plan to roll on a PvP server since I will be doing primarily PvP anyhow...screw 20 man PvE raids :P

[Rasix]

Why not just do what DAoC did years ago? Give more experience for killing mobs and doing quests in the pvp zones.  Simple risk vs reward.  I leveled almost exclusively in the frontiers on mobs because it was faster and better cash.  It also had the added bonus of letting me kill anyone that started to take my spawns.  Win-win.   

Yah, I remember having fun with that.  We didn't do it very often, but it was nice to have as an option.  It was a place to progress while you're itching for a fight but not max level with nothing else to do.

Ahh, one of my few fond memories of DAOC.

[Threash]

It's only world pvp that sucks.  Things like battlegrounds, arenas, realm vs realm is the only kind of pvp i enjoy, if it isn't about two groups of hopefully even forces fighting over a predetermined goal chances are it is going to suck.  I never understood the appeal of southshore style fighting, it seemed like an utter waste of time to me and somehow a lot of people consider it the pinnacle of wow pvp.  World pvp ALWAYS boils down to beating the other side through overwhelming force and nothing else.

[Lucas]

To me, World PvP always had a more realistic vibe, sort of medieval "open battlefield" one. With battlegrounds, Arenas and such, everything looks too "artificial". But like I said, it's my take, and I vasly prefer sandbox games.

[ghost]

It's only world pvp that sucks.  Things like battlegrounds, arenas, realm vs realm is the only kind of pvp i enjoy, if it isn't about two groups of hopefully even forces fighting over a predetermined goal chances are it is going to suck.  I never understood the appeal of southshore style fighting, it seemed like an utter waste of time to me and somehow a lot of people consider it the pinnacle of wow pvp.  World pvp ALWAYS boils down to beating the other side through overwhelming force and nothing else.

This is pretty much the answer.  I've yet to see world PvP that doesn't encourage the zerg.  I never really played DaOC, but hear that this was one of the least offensive in this regard. 

[Typhon]

I liked the way that WAR did it.  I liked the way DAOC did it.

The way WoW does it leaves me cold. 

What I think would be better is combining PvE and PvP.  If the quest said, "kill a dozen pigs, or take pig jowels from enemy players" THAT would add something to it for me.  Now I'm PvEing AND PvPing at the same time.  Make killing enemy players in an area where you are grinding rep ALSO give you that rep (or maybe even more rep).  To really encourage PvP, make the rewards for killing an enemy player greater (two pig jowels for every enemy player killed!).  I think adding the DAOC-twist on it is also a good idea - better drops, more frequent mine spawns, etc.

I dislike that games have the mindset that you are either PvEing or PvPing.  I dislike it when i'm PvEing/leveling and it feels less efficient to do anything except cooperating/ignore the enemy.  WoW puts everyone in the same area, but make pursuing both activities counter-productive.  In WoW, only the "dick" player engages the enemy in a leveling/questing area.

[Spiff]

Im not sure the opposing faction can take over and claim areas on the map either although I always see the popups that say "Defiant Controlled" so does that mean Guardians can go there and take that area and make it "Guardian Controlled"?  Not sure.

From what I've seen (I never went far beyond level 30, so that's the first 3 zones for both sides basically), "Defiant-" or "Guardian controlled" means you can't viably take it over; guards will respawn too fast and you won't have any objectives in those zones anyway as the opposing side.
"Contested" seems to mean you both have overlapping objectives in the area and you can sort of take over hubs, although if a Defiant takes over a Guardian hub it's simply no longer a Guardian hub, it doesn't start giving Defiant quests or spawn specific NPC's or anything.

That said this is low-mid level, later on that might change.
If they want to add some spice to World PvP for their sake I hope it does.

[fake Edit] if I put on my PvP hat, that may be my biggest disappointment from what I've seen; I wasn't expecting a sandbox, but with all their talk of an 'ever-changing' dynamic world. I had hoped you'd be able to flip a settlements loyalty for instance
Perhaps the side that lost it could set up temporary 'warcamps' so to speak still giving quests, relating to their recent setback.
I'll add that to my big book of failed MMO expectations.

[Sobelius]

Yes, the ability to choose when and where and whether to PvP made DAOC and WAR great for mixing PvE and PvP. I never would have learned to enjoy PvP without those experiences -- they allowed me to get my feet wet and try it out and fail over and over as I learned but at the same time allowed me to also experience the game without pvp if it was not what I was in the mood for. PvP is very much a "being in the mood for it" thing with me. It requires me to get into a different mindset and go in with different expectations than doing something in PvE. Most of all, I want to feel in control of that choice. And just as I don't like being ganked by someone when I'm off in PvE land, I don't really like being forced to PvE in the middle of a PvP fight. There are probably times when it's OK, but mostly not.

Open world PvP just doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless some kind of very strong balancing factor or tradeoff enters the picture (such as loss of access to resources like vendors/trainers, etc. until you're no longer considered an "outlaw"). Otherwise it's just about gear and ganking. The tradeoffs are what make it a *game* as opposed to an exercise in asstardery. I'm not saying things have to be fair -- that assassin is going to attack you when you're by yourself and weak and engaged in another fight because that's the *smart* way to be an assassin. Only someone with a slight sense of nobility -- or who thought a fair fight was a more challenging fight and thus more fun -- would actually wait until the playing field was level before attacking. But that's not what makes playing a stealthy assassin 'fun'. And people do it because the repercussions are pretty nonexistant.

What assassins lack in most open world PvP settings, IMHO, are threats specific to the assassin lifestyle. Assassins should be regularly tracked and hunted by NPC mobs that have a strong chance to see through their stealth and show up unexpectedly at any time, anywhere, and be of variable toughness (from lightweight troublemakers to unstoppable terminators). I'm not talking all the time, but just often enough to keep an assassin from thinking they can cause lawless murder and mayhem in an open world without repercussions. And it can't be just a system of PC-based/originated bounties though that would be a good addition.

Without a system of repercussions for PKing, then if you like playing solo most of the time you should *be* the assassin, and if you don't want to be an assassin you should not play solo.

Since Rift has no reputation/bounty/assassin-hunter system, if I were to play open world PvP then when I want to solo I'll break out the assassin, and when I want to play any other class/role, I'll LFG. Those would seem to be my only choices.

[Segoris]

Beta 6 review from Hartsman

[Ashamanchill]

I'll add that to my big book of failed MMO expectations.

Dude that's a multi tome, A to Z, encyclopedic set.

[Sobelius]

Beta 6 review from Hartsman

The news about different rule sets for PvP/PvE servers is sending some forum posters into jizzed-in-my-pants mode. You'd think Trion just parted the Red Sea or decoded a broadcast from an alien civilization.

[EWSpider]

Like I said, if anyone wants to brave the PVP-RP server (no rp required) you are welcome to join up with me and my little band of guys. I think right now we have like 7 or 10 semi casual players. Should be fun.

I'll join you guys.  Do you know what server yet?

[Xanthippe]

One cool thing I noticed when venturing forth on my 19 ranger/bard into zones much higher was the ability to actually be able to hit much higher players.  Some 35s were griefing some 26/27/28s and the lower group beat them.

This is a little different than WoW, it seems.

[Chinchilla]

For some weird reason I really was enjoying this game while I played it during the weekend.  I had made a dual wielding guy and was having alot of fun.  Hell I was really happy when I was able to craft 2 1h swords from the tin I found around the world that my guy could find.  Normally in most MMO's the stuff I harvest I have to grind on to get anywhere near somewhere I can use it because the beginning stuff sucked.  Here the first set of swords I made I could use.  It was great :)!