Rift: Planes of Telara

[Modern Angel]

Just out of curiosity, how many and which instances did you do?

[Dark_MadMax]

Just out of curiosity, how many and which instances did you do?

IT, DSM, KB . FC is only one I didnt do yet

[Hawkbit]

As someone who never thought they would walk away from WoW, I see lots of potential in RIFT.  It won't be a WoW killer, but I think it will take a few of their players.  I would expect 1mill+ boxes in the first three months with retention of 500k+ at the three month marker.  Much of RIFT's longevity depends on Blizzard quickly fixing things to get their players back and how GW2 does, but overall I think RIFT is slated to be #2 MMO out there in a year.  

For me, I am tired of the cutesy world of Warcraft.  Everything is a joke from RL: Haris Pilton, PvZ, Rambo... the list goes on and on.  It was fun at first, but now it is formulaic to the point of disgust with me.  That's what WoW's shtick has become:  Not about the lore anymore, but how many world references we can make.  So that I feel less like I am in another world and rather just a silly extension of ours.  I'll say it again:  I loved EQ because it was somewhere else I could go for awhile... it wasn't just a game to play.  WoW lost that.

RIFT, for the time being, has it for me.

[Draegan]

Just what exactly Rift has that WoW does or LotRo does not? From pve point of view rift is just bland clone. All instances look the same (dark caves), quests are of the most generic variety. Both WoW and Lotro are better in this regard. Rift has nothing new or superior to offer. Its polished and its not a trainwreck but I dont see it pulling subscribers from current games. There seems to be quite  a few beta testers in rift who never played wow. So I think  there will be some core audience for it. But I highly doubt it would be anywhere north of 500k past first 6 months

Clearly you haven't played the game much.  Obviously I've played it too much.

There are currently 6 dungeons available to the public. 

• Iron Tombs - Inside dungeon, looks like a Tomb
• Realm of the Fae - Outdoors Dungeon, goes through four seasons.
• Deepstrike Mines - Indoors Cave-Like dungeon.  Though you are moving from across rope bridges/platforms the whole time.
• Darkening Deeps - Indoors Cave-Like dungeon.  Probably got this one and DSM confused or thought they were all the same, i.e. "dark caves".
• Foul Cascade - Outside zone, non-linear, big death rift in the middle.  Death themed.
• Kings Breach - Outside zone, linear-lite, First half is life-rift themed, second half is death rift themed.

So only two zones are caves.  There are four more dungeons to look at, not counting the expansion of them all in Expert Mode.  (Hint: Take a look at the map for Deep Strike Mines and you'll see that more than half the zone is not accessible at level 25)


Quest are generic, I'll give you that.  But just as generic as LOTRO.  WOW has phasing which is a cool mechanic, but in the end both games were full of Kill X, Fetch Y, Defend Z, Escort A.  WOW did quest leveling better for sure.

Rift has plenty to offer with the rift system.  It has a new world, new dungeons, new class system.  It just has new.  Which is enough for many people.  Sometimes something different is enough.

[Rendakor]

Just what exactly Rift has that WoW does or LotRo does not? From pve point of view rift is just bland clone. All instances look the same (dark caves), quests are of the most generic variety. Both WoW and Lotro are better in this regard. Rift has nothing new or superior to offer. Its polished and its not a trainwreck but I dont see it pulling subscribers from current games. There seems to be quite  a few beta testers in rift who never played wow. So I think  there will be some core audience for it. But I highly doubt it would be anywhere north of 500k past first 6 months

After the Cata talent changes in WoW, I'm most looking forward to Rift's class/soul customization system. The versatility they offer and the potential ease for adding new options really has me excited. Of course, I'm someone who likes exactly this type of game. I'm not looking for someone to reinvent the wheel, and I'll probably keep my WoW sub while I play Rift since I'll still be raiding with my guild (unless Rift has a good raiding endgame, which I'm suspicious about given the lack of OPEN testing).

How well they retain me (and others) after the first few months will depend on the quality of their endgame. The soul system shoots them in the foot in the alt department, since there's really only a reason to roll 4-5 toons total, ever, which means they will need raiding to keep me interested.

[Sky]

Oh, for fuck's sake. I'm not a big fan of the game (it's mmo), but the people hating on it are doing such an utterly lazy and shitty job. It's a good game, sorry. If you like mmo, you'll like Rift.

Lelz dark caves.

[Modern Angel]

Oh, for fuck's sake. I'm not a big fan of the game (it's mmo), but the people hating on it are doing such an utterly lazy and shitty job.

This, 100%. There are plenty of flaws you can fixate on but the sheer drivel out of the two or three guys that are absolutely convinced it's a bomb a la WAR (hint: it's not) is just mind-numbing

[Merusk]

Complaints of "generic" quests can be wrapped-up in a lack of care about the lore, I think.  Rifts was the first game I found I didn't care enough to read anything at all of the quest text because I didn't give a damn about the world.  I even read quests in WAR, of all places.

If you're complaining about "generic" quests in terms of "go here, kill that, loot this, toggle that, escort him." Well that's applicable to everything anymore.  These are just what "quests" are in MMOs.  The ones WoW broke ground with (like the vehicles) are the ones that folks enjoy for their novelty, but will get just as tiresome after the 4th or 5th iteration as the rest.

Throwing bears in Hyjal was awesome because it was a one-off.  If it was bears, then penguins, then orphans, then bombs you'd go "Oh look, another throwing quest, yawn" at the next one.  Hell, as soon as I realized it was just a twist on the vehicle mechanics I thought it was cleverly done, but nothing new.  Ditto the seahorse ride in Vash'jir.

Just what exactly Rift has that WoW does or LotRo does not? From pve point of view rift is just bland clone. All instances look the same (dark caves), quests are of the most generic variety. Both WoW and Lotro are better in this regard. Rift has nothing new or superior to offer. Its polished and its not a trainwreck but I dont see it pulling subscribers from current games. There seems to be quite  a few beta testers in rift who never played wow. So I think  there will be some core audience for it. But I highly doubt it would be anywhere north of 500k past first 6 months

After the Cata talent changes in WoW, I'm most looking forward to Rift's class/soul customization system. The versatility they offer and the potential ease for adding new options really has me excited. Of course, I'm someone who likes exactly this type of game. I'm not looking for someone to reinvent the wheel, and I'll probably keep my WoW sub while I play Rift since I'll still be raiding with my guild (unless Rift has a good raiding endgame, which I'm suspicious about given the lack of OPEN testing).

How well they retain me (and others) after the first few months will depend on the quality of their endgame. The soul system shoots them in the foot in the alt department, since there's really only a reason to roll 4-5 toons total, ever, which means they will need raiding to keep me interested.

This system is the one place I think they can exploit jaded WoW gamers and turn them on to Rift if they market towards it.  I was annoyed with the talent changes, as were many other players.  I liked being able to spec into the other trees so I didn't HAVE to spend all 31 points in one tree or another. (In fact, many successful PVP rogue specs over the years never went all-in on one tree.)    I understand why they did it, because Raiding/ PvE is their bread & butter and it made encounters difficult to balance, but it doesn't mean it was a welcome change.

So Rift appeals to me because it's like that old system on steroids.  Not only do you get to pick willy-nilly from all three souls, but you're not limited to which souls you can combine.  Does this mean some will be sub-optimal for PvP or PvE? Yes.  Does this mean it's any less fun to do it? No.

See, the argument "how many different specs were there REALLY" only holds watter if your designers have to slavishly adhere to min/ maxing the way high-end  PVE requires in WoW.  The encounters are balanced around doing X damage while healing for Y and taking Z damage over a timeframe of Q.  They're complex math equations that, to provide a challenge to the high-end min/max player, require speccing a certain way.  If you don't spec that way, you lose, end of story.

Then again, the 'play as you like' thing never works well in a social setting.  Over time min/maxed templates will roll out and only 'newbs' will spec any other way.  Those combining defensive, offensive and support souls will be seen as freaks who just "don't know how to play" and it will turn into the same system as WoW in time.   After all, nobody likes challenge, even though we say we do.  Particularly not when strangers are involved and we just want our shiny new bauble.

Still, it's an advantage that they can capitalize on right now, before someone's done all the math.

[Dark_MadMax]

Clearly you haven't played the game much.  Obviously I've played it too much.

Clearly .as seem you played both sides and raided all dungeons available . I am not gonna split hairs whether x is  formally a cave or no. I said look the same ,doesnt mean are the same. To me Iron tomb is a dark cavey dungeon,  (maybe its formally a tomb -whatever) ,so is DSM and so is KB  .KB I did it last night and never once it struck me as outdoors - its dark as hell and has caves all over the place (where 2 ghosts spawn for example).  I even thought -tree stumps in a cave - how odd!

Now it is only level 35 so I clearly havent seen everything , but I remember even now (and I only played vanilla for short time) that wow had a lot of variety (RC,RFD ,SK ,ZF ,SM ,WC, gnomeregan,  that hakkar tomb place , dungeon  with fat princess (and 3 wings)   and  at end game  LBRS, strat - all were pretty unique, MC was a bore though)

This is my impression - wow had mildly entertaining(at least for a couple of runs) well themed instances. Rift has one of the most generic ones I ever saw - I ran  them once and have no desire to ever step in again.

Rift has plenty to offer with the rift system.  It has a new world, new dungeons, new class system.  It just has new.  Which is enough for many people.  Sometimes something different is enough.

Yeah it is new. I give it that. It only takes about 3 months tops to go trough all that "new" and it becomes same old same old.  And soul system .Which is probably best part about rift, but again I dont see how it will make it last - since you can try every soul combo of one calling with single char, I will only need level once , play with templates for a couple of weeks and there - and I have seen it all.

[ghost]

Is it really that common for people to have more than 2 or 3 very high level alts?  And I don't mean amongst the power gamers, I'm referring to average gamer types.

[Nebu]

Is it really that common for people to have more than 2 or 3 very high level alts?  And I don't mean amongst the power gamers, I'm referring to average gamer types.

I would think so.  For many casual gamers, solo play is all we have.  Making multiple trips to cap is often easier on a random gaming schedule than it is to fully develop a single toon. 

[Bzalthek]

Especially if you don't have a guild of non-STRANGERDANGERs.  I've always thought, even though I primarily solo, the fun in the game is interaction with others.  That is, it's basically a chatroom with a game tacked on.  If the people in the chat room are fun to talk with, the game seems better.  If its full of jackasses you don't know, not so much.

[ghost]

I find that surprising in that I would think the average Joe would burn out more quickly.  You can be hardcore about your gaming and still mostly solo.  Still, having 4-5 viable alts would probably be sufficient for many people.  

[Bzalthek]

Well that solo mentality also applies to self sufficiency.  Limiting tradeskills in WoW was my impetus to get many 60s in Vanilla just so I didn't have to rely on others and could in turn provide just about anything basic to my friends.

[Shatter]

I expect to have 2 high level characters at some point starting with rogue, then cleric.  Not overly interested in warrior but mage has possibilities.  The soul / class possibilities in the game are outstanding and very time consuming :)

[Sky]

Is it really that common for people to have more than 2 or 3 very high level alts?  And I don't mean amongst the power gamers, I'm referring to average gamer types.

Not for me. Usually 2 or 3. In the game I spent by far the longest playing, EQ2, I had a level 75 wizard (cap was 80), a 45 SK, and a bunch of 20s.

[Amaron]

Just what exactly Rift has that WoW does or LotRo does not? From pve point of view rift is just bland clone.

...

But I highly doubt it would be anywhere north of 500k past first 6 months

 

[Rendakor]

I realize I'm pretty hardcore, but I had 8 out of 10 classes at 80 in LK, with a 9th who almost made it before Cata hit. I've got 3 85s already, with 1 84 and a couple 82s. Lack of character slots was a big complaint of mine in EQ2 (although not big enough that I paid for the extra ones) since it had so many classes. Rift has the opposite problem, and they've painted themselves into the same corner EQ2 did in that adding new classes (not souls, classes) will be pretty difficult.

[Threash]

There really aren't any other base classes to add though, anything you can think off can be simply added as a soul to one of the existing classes.

[Draegan]

Clearly .as seem you played both sides and raided all dungeons available . I am not gonna split hairs whether x is  formally a cave or no. I said look the same ,doesnt mean are the same. To me Iron tomb is a dark cavey dungeon,  (maybe its formally a tomb -whatever) ,so is DSM and so is KB  .KB I did it last night and never once it struck me as outdoors - its dark as hell and has caves all over the place (where 2 ghosts spawn for example).  I even thought -tree stumps in a cave - how odd!

Really?  You should open your eyes when you play.

Yeah it is new. I give it that. It only takes about 3 months tops to go trough all that "new" and it becomes same old same old.  And soul system .Which is probably best part about rift, but again I dont see how it will make it last - since you can try every soul combo of one calling with single char, I will only need level once , play with templates for a couple of weeks and there - and I have seen it all.

I'm not sure how that's different than any other game.  However, the soul system allows for future souls to be added to the game a lot easier than say, WOW or LOTRO.  As far as Rifts go, well, yeah.  If you don't like them thats fine.  But I think the zone-wide invasion system is amazing.

[Amaron]

But I think the zone-wide invasion system is amazing.

You know this is totally off topic but I was just remembering the whole dynamic invasion system was the big idea for Horizons.

It's amazing how much of a difference not sucking makes.

[Abelian75]

You know this is totally off topic but I was just remembering the whole dynamic invasion system was the big idea for Horizons.

It's amazing how much of a difference not sucking makes.

Indeed.  Feature-listing can only get you so far when comparing games (which is not very far at all).

[Merusk]

Is it really that common for people to have more than 2 or 3 very high level alts?  And I don't mean amongst the power gamers, I'm referring to average gamer types.

It's MORE common among the average gamer types than the hardcores.  My former WoW guild was #3 on the server throughout BC, #5 in LK and is #2 right now.  Most of those guys had one single character they focused on and played almost exclusivley and thought I was diluting my play ability by having 2 alts.  One alt was "acceptable" since some days you need an "undergeared" character to fill a role. (Note; Undergeared still meant geared better than 90% of the server.)   Having more than that just meant you'd not honed your skills well enough, or risked missing some nuance or trick a more experienced player would know.

[Bzalthek]

Yeah, some people like to play with assholes, too.  I don't quite get that, but some people like women in high heels to step on their junk too.  *shrug*

[Amaron]

Yeah, some people like to play with assholes, too. 

I'm interested to see if RIFT will breed that attitude like WoW does.   Every time I read a blue post it's almost like the dev's themselves are saying "stop being baddies".  It really makes me cringe and actually feel sorry for the Blizz suits.  They probably desperately want to fire several devs but can't take the risk.

[Mrbloodworth]

All instances look the same (dark caves), quests are of the most generic variety. Both WoW and Lotro are better in this regard. Rift has nothing new or superior to offer.

[Ghambit]

Speaking of "undergeared" one nice thing with Rift is the crafting system rewards you nicely even if no one has use for a piece of gear.  It's a bit more involved than simply breaking epix for shards.
So even if no one has initial use for a piece, with a few pieces of leather and some dust it can be made to.

[ezrast]

Is it really that common for people to have more than 2 or 3 very high level alts?  And I don't mean amongst the power gamers, I'm referring to average gamer types.

It's MORE common among the average gamer types than the hardcores.  My former WoW guild was #3 on the server throughout BC, #5 in LK and is #2 right now.  Most of those guys had one single character they focused on and played almost exclusivley and thought I was diluting my play ability by having 2 alts.  One alt was "acceptable" since some days you need an "undergeared" character to fill a role. (Note; Undergeared still meant geared better than 90% of the server.)   Having more than that just meant you'd not honed your skills well enough, or risked missing some nuance or trick a more experienced player would know.

That's weird, I always thought it was a benefit to play more classes since knowing their mechanics help you play better. Basic shit like "click the lightwell" is a lot easier to remember if you've been the frustrated priest whose lightwell nobody clicks, and it brings to light more nuanced stuff that you otherwise wouldn't think of, like standing in Chain Heal range of your teammates. If I were a hardcore raider in Rift I would make it a point to play alternate specs from time to time just to keep up on how they work.

[Ingmar]

It's really helpful to play a lot of classes if you're leading a raid of people who don't know what they're doing to some degree or another since it lets you make suggestions or spot things that can help them do better. Once you get to the high end of the skill curve as a guild though it probably matters a lot less, since that shaman can tell you himself how to stand to make his heals more effective or whatever.

[Modern Angel]

 

[Chimpy]

It's really helpful to play a lot of classes if you're leading a raid of people who don't know what they're doing to some degree or another since it lets you make suggestions or spot things that can help them do better. Once you get to the high end of the skill curve as a guild though it probably matters a lot less, since that shaman can tell you himself how to stand to make his heals more effective or whatever.

In WoW, I always found that it was more that those in the harder-core raiding mindset knew how their class interacted with others. They couldn't necessarily tell you how to play another class or even what all their spells were, but they knew if the other class had some uber spell that was useful to them how to take advantage of it. Like how to stand in relation to the totems etc. Most the people I knew never had "alts" they invested a lot of time in, they only had max level characters if they were re-rolling permanently or were using them for gathering/crafting etc.

[Draegan]

That chart is only accurate on an extremely basic level, and inaccurate in others.

[Xanthippe]

Yeah, some people like to play with assholes, too. 

I'm interested to see if RIFT will breed that attitude like WoW does.   Every time I read a blue post it's almost like the dev's themselves are saying "stop being baddies".  It really makes me cringe and actually feel sorry for the Blizz suits.  They probably desperately want to fire several devs but can't take the risk.

Yes, I feel the same way about blue postings lately.  It wasn't always this way, but the blue comments since the recent expansion has left me with the feeling that WoW isn't for me anymore.

I am not getting that vibe from Rift devs at all.

[Modern Angel]

That chart is only accurate on an extremely basic level, and inaccurate in others.

It is 100% completely serious. I promise.

[ezrast]

Let's talk about balance!

My main PvE thing was a Void Knight/Riftblade/Warlord, at some point I respecced Paladin/Warlord/Reaver because someone told me pally was the best tank. I did Realm of the Fae both ways and it seemed that the paladin build was slightly more survivable but also a bit worse at holding aggro. People who got to higher levels: does it look like there's enough leeway in survivability requirements that I can take fulfill my hopes and dreams of taking Riftblade as my second tree and still being a viable tank? It does offer a little survivability (6% parry, 6.5% damage reduction, stoneshield) and some energy returns to fuel the VK self-heal... I just worry about being useless if I don't go Paladin/Warlord/{VK|Reaver} like the chart says to.

Speaking of the chart, is there a reason the guy left off Paragon?

edit: also, VK as a main tanking tree, yea/nay? Like I said it seemed okay but maybe that's just since RotF had a fair amount of magic users.