Rift: Planes of Telara

[Threash]

I always play dwarves. :(

They do have a small hardcore following, emphasis on small.  In games like shadowbane were you can pick who you fight for regardless or race, or Wow that has enough races to counterbalance their small numbers this isn't a big deal.  In Rift though with only three races per side this is a big problem for faction balance.

[Falconeer]

I fucking love the saboteur, fucking love.

It has to be me, but trying a saboteur guardian side, and level 12 now, I have never died so much in a MMORPG in my entire life. Even the level 1 and 2 quests were hard. As I said, I am certainly doing something wrong, but this class seems to have serious energy management issues to me. Meaning, attach 5 charges (or throw 5 bombs) and you are out of energy at any given level (so far). Not fun, even if it recharges pretty quickly.

How are you playing it?

[Threash]

With nightblade for the 25 energy refund on finishers.  Also i meant mostly in pvp, ranger all the way for leveling.

[Falconeer]

Ok, good to know. I can give a class the time to grow, but this felt pretty broken so far. I know it's beta, so I am not whining, just curious if it _really_ was me.

[Threash]

Yeah i picked saboteur with my first class, then promptly died on my first mob kill as i accidentally bombed a group of three.  Picked ranger with the second and things got a lot easier.

[Modern Angel]

I haven't had any issues soloing with a saboteur so far but I can completely see how it could be an issue. I took a ranger secondary so my pet could keep things off me, though. I love it. It's so satisfying watching something just vaporize at full life.

[Threash]

To be fair i didn't really try to level as saboteur.  I don't see why it wouldn't work once you got a few points in though.

[Falconeer]

As I said, what didn't "work" for me is the constant running out of energy in any given fight. No matter how weak the enemy is, I spam attacks (as I can do with all the other classes) and I run out of energy before the enemy is killed. That means I have to wait a few seconds to recharge and finish it. The result of this is a bit annoying flow-wise. That is all. Other classes I tried, especially at lower levels, don't have to pause their attacks for power-mana issues on a single even-con enemy.

[Threash]

Five combo points and a finisher basically runs every rogue class out of energy.

[Falconeer]

Something I'm liking a lot.

Under Settings ---> User Interface ---> Screen Messages ---> Hud Mode. Check "Show Damage and EXP on HUD", "Show Ability names" and "Show ability icons".

Probably not viable for any serious grouping, but I loved it while soloing. Is's nice to have that direct, immediately visible feel of what your abilities and passives are doing. Not sure if this is in some other game (WoW maybe?) but I really appreciated it.

[Morfiend]

Anyone have a spare beta invite? I would really love to give this a try.

[Draegan]

Page one on the "things wow taught us five years ago" handbook: 8 second cast times for pets in pvp unfairly punish pet classes, stop making pets unsummon when dying in pvp.  Or at all really.

Necros, at least, have an ability for instant cast pet on something like a 30s cooldown.

On invasions/rfits and elites.  I agree they are overtuned right now.  Sometimes I just like plowing through 10 mobs solo.  It might have something to do with their dynamic system.  If they have X amount of people in the zone then you get more elites.  I think they'll have to tune that a bit.

I guess that's exactly what beta is for.

Well, you're essentially saying they should take their Dynamic AI and throw it out the window yes?  If "x" people are in the zone and you've wandered into an area all by your lonesome to get curbstomped by a patrol or foothold, why would they want to "detune" the rift/patrols?  If they did so, they'd be ignoring the amount of players in said zone and focusing more on the lone wolf who happened to be in a well populated area.   

Where did a say toss out the AI?  I just say the saturation of elite invasions/footholds should be toned down by a certain percentage.

[Draegan]

Anyone have a spare beta invite? I would really love to give this a try.

The only beta invites are the ones you can sign up for so they're random.  Or you can pre-order and get a guarantee in.

[palmer_eldritch]

Anyone have a spare beta invite? I would really love to give this a try.

They don't give out codes, they add beta access directly to the account tied in to your e-mail address.

[Falconeer]

Disclaimer: what follows is based on the first 20 levels, both in WoW and Rift.

All in all, I am very satisfied with the game. I think it's very good and it should do great with people relatively new to the genre. Unfortunately, I am totally burned out on traditional MMORPGs (meaning autoattack-hotbar based ones), so the amount of fun I can get here is very limited, and the lack of any kind of harsh PvP is not helping. One month ago, out of total boredom and thanks to the crazy cheap offers I grabbed some WoW expansions and tried to play it again for the first time since 2005. I was underwhelmed, and while I can see what and where it improved and put itself one step ahead of anything else, I could not for the sake of anything go over level 23. It's the same fucking game, and no dungeon, battleground or fucking purple loot can make that turd a better turd anymore. Anyway, this is just to clarify that I have an updated idea and feel of what WoW is and how it plays.

Well, Rift is the same game again! To me, it really IS World of Warcraft with better graphics and more classes. I won't go into the rifts mechanics as it's not, in my opinion, what really matters when it comes to stick with the game or go looking for something else. They could be awesome, but at the moment they are just OK, so let's skip it.
I think with Rift they wanted, almost alchemically, to replicate what makes WoW so playable, and seems to me they succeeded. On top of all the other obvious things, the level of polish here is crazy, and it's probably the more polished MMORPG to ever come out, am I wrong? I am sure there are plenty of differences everywhere more expert WoWers could mention, and I read many qualms already in this thread, but at the end of the day, and for the first portion of the two experiences, they play very similar. Only, Rift seems to have 32 classes instead of 10, and better graphics.

Will it be enough to get or retain a good amount of suscriptions, or even put a dent in WoW's armour? I don't think so. But that has nothing to do with being a better or a worse game than WoW. *IF* there is a difference in quality, it's nowhere near what the subscription numbers will probably be saying three months after Rift's launch.

Remember, all I am saying is based on just the first 20 levels of WoW and Rift, but I think it's relevant cause those 20 levels are usually when people decide to stay or leave. I am aware people can decide to leave after level 30, but that's a completely different challenge the Rift team has to face, and considering beta is capped I think we agree there's no way we can say anything about it yet.

[Threash]

WoW with better graphics, more class customization and rifts is basically what it is, nobody has claimed it is any more than that.  If that doesn't sound appealing then this isn't the game, or probably the genre for you.

[Ratama]

But it's distinctly inferior WoW.

PS - WoW isn't exactly what a lot of people want in an MMO (including many WoW players); doesn't mean we're in the wrong genre.

[Falconeer]

But it's distinctly inferior WoW.

How so?

My approach was, two humans new to the genre try WoW and Rift for 6 hours each, for the first time and on the same day. How could they ever say WoW is better? How can you? I am honestly interested. Distinctly inferior how exactly?

[Threash]

But it's distinctly inferior WoW.

PS - WoW isn't exactly what a lot of people want in an MMO (including many WoW players); doesn't mean we're in the wrong genre.

Depends on what you want in a game.  I am much more interested in character building than quests for example so the fact that wow has better questing/leveling means jack all to me, while the crazy amounts of class mixes you can do compared to wows one viable spec with absolutely no talent variation makes Rift by far the superior game.

[kildorn]

RIFT is lacking in a number of quality of life things WoW has that show up around the level 20 range. Specifically, fast travel and LFD type systems. RIFT's fast travel system is very light on the destinations available, and instance groups are a bit of a pain to put together.

Which is sad, since the number of healing/tanking souls available should help a lot with WoW's issue of "why won't anyone heal/tank?

[Falconeer]

That's a cool comment, Kildorn. Especially cause you are probably right and I am surprised that in their cloning spree they forgot something as simple as that. On the other hand, they (Hartsman) could read here and add it in the two months between here and launch. What else is distinctly inferior?

[Threash]

RIFT is lacking in a number of quality of life things WoW has that show up around the level 20 range. Specifically, fast travel and LFD type systems. RIFT's fast travel system is very light on the destinations available, and instance groups are a bit of a pain to put together.

Which is sad, since the number of healing/tanking souls available should help a lot with WoW's issue of "why won't anyone heal/tank?

Yeah, exactly.  Small quality of life stuff like not keeping random currency on your inventory and having to resummon your pet each time you die in pvp.  The LFD tool has always been nothing more than a way for me and my friends to get a free teleport to the dungeon though, i don't see the appeal of doing things with strangers.

[Mrbloodworth]

I foresee this discussion lasting decades, X3 if Rift is any sort of "hit".

[kildorn]

Currency tab is a good point. As far as I can tell there are something like 5 types of motes from various rift levels that should just be "currency", not an item wasting space, like badges in WoW used to be.

Could also use an on level up notifier that there's a new rank of a skill available. Personally, I'd rather they go to the new WoW system of skill damage scaling on level, though. My rogue soul had a number of levels where his "defensive" riftblade finisher upgrade now outdamaged his nightblade "offensive" finisher that was just pure damage.

[Ratman_tf]

WoW with better graphics,

Guh. More polygons, maybe. I found the graphics to be dull compared to WoW.

[Falconeer]

WoW with better graphics,

Guh. More polygons, maybe. I found the graphics to be dull compared to WoW.

More polygons, and texture, and shaders, and particles, and so on?

And do you mean graphics or style?
Cause to me WoW style was dull in 2004 compared to EverQuest 1 (one), but I couldn't sustain the point about the general quality of the graphics. Why can you?


I specifically chose two crappy generic and vaguely similar screens, not to distract too much from the simple things.
So yeah, picture one has better "graphics" than picture two to you? Uhm... OK. Whatever. Fine.

[Ratman_tf]

I specifically chose two crappy generic and vaguely similar screens, not to distract too much from the simple things.
So yeah, picture one has better "graphics" than picture two to you? Uhm... OK. Whatever. Fine.

Alls I know is that going from WoW to Rifts, one of my first thoughts was "This looks like crap."

[Kageru]

Rift's character model has a lot more vertexes, but it will be interesting to see how well they can do non-humans and gear variety. Rift's Background is generic fantasy and blocky whereas the WoW one has race specific architecture plus NPC models with their own unique armor and weaponry. Also, show some recent WoW locations rather than vanilla.

But really as long as it doesn't trigger the "too crap to be immersive" response both are fine. I do wish Blizzard would offer the option of some slightly more demanding character models though.

The class system just sounds like an end-game balancing disaster though. And allowing a high degree of flexibility in power selection will also make the classes feel less distinct and quite probably less varied as people are pressured into playing the small number of optimal builds. Resulting in it feeling like their are less individual useful classes than WoW has to offer. But this won't be seen until there is challenging content in the game.

[Hawkbit]

The quality of life options mentioned above are one of the major things that took people out of the world of WoW.  With fast travel, there's no reason to get down on the ground and deal with the rifts.  You can cherry pick your way to what you want, instead of helping your side (and other players!) win against the invasion.  The whole system requires that people are trying to get from A to B, so that they can deal with what the game is throwing at them.  

If they put in fast travel, then everyone (including myself) will use it.  Then nobody is messing with invasions, except questers, who will get fed up because there's nobody to help them.  If the only people out in the world are the 1-49s, then this will fail.  

I'm also very much against a LFD (even though it will likely be added at some point) for the same reason.  They already have LFwarfront, which has its own issues:  often being placed in one without any healers is bad, bad bad.  

There are guild rallies in the game, and I think that if a leader throws down a guild rally that one can port to that rally once the guild has reached an appropriate level.  The currencies can definitely go into a tab, without issue though.  

[Modern Angel]

I really like the art style and quality in Rift. The landscapes are well done and the character models, while not varied, are good. In a first, they've made realistic female bodies more or less the entire way round and have some of the very few MMO forests which don't look like shit. Spell effects are entirely too loud and garish, however.

I hate LFD. Hate it. It made WoW small and I was suddenly running dungeons with Lord of the Flies rejects in straight tube loot hoses; I would never see them again nor speak to them nor learn their names. I'm anti-social as fuck in these games, almost never going outside of guild, but even for me LFD was a bridge too far.

[Draegan]

Currency tab is a good point. As far as I can tell there are something like 5 types of motes from various rift levels that should just be "currency", not an item wasting space, like badges in WoW used to be.

There are three types of currencies.  Normal, Rare and Epic.  There is a level appropriate version of each one, the Rare and Epic ones are for each zone, and I believe the normal ones, according to the vendor in Sanctum, have three varieties throughout the game. 

[Shatter]

So I did more PvP in warfronts 10-19 bracket and 3 things are clear to me.  One is higher levels dominate lower.  Two is ranged definitely have an advantage over melee.  Outside of pure kiting of melee they can stand on hills, walls, etc and just plink away.  Third is ranger and necro pets are pretty badass and have a lot of HP lol.

[kildorn]

I really like the art style and quality in Rift. The landscapes are well done and the character models, while not varied, are good. In a first, they've made realistic female bodies more or less the entire way round and have some of the very few MMO forests which don't look like shit. Spell effects are entirely too loud and garish, however.

I hate LFD. Hate it. It made WoW small and I was suddenly running dungeons with Lord of the Flies rejects in straight tube loot hoses; I would never see them again nor speak to them nor learn their names. I'm anti-social as fuck in these games, almost never going outside of guild, but even for me LFD was a bridge too far.

LFD made the world small on purpose. Specifically, WoW expanded the playerbase by acknowledging the idea of limited time investment MMOs.

The difference between LFD and oldschool WoW is pretty much 15-25 minutes of travel time on top of getting people together for the group. It's the difference between me coming home and saying "enh, I had a long day and want to jump into WoW" and "fuck it, that's too demanding, I'm going to play something else"

As I said in rift general today: My main issue as I've gotten older in MMOs is that a lot of MMO players seem to confuse tedium with gameplay.

LFD's only "flaw" was to hurt the idea of pickup group server communities by making LFD cross server. If it wasn't cross server, you'd still have a pug community on a server, you'd just have less trade spam to sift through to see what tank healer and three dps would all like to do something right now.

As for fast travel: with the zone breaks, fast travel would just remove annoyance from getting around. 49/50s aren't going to be hanging out in the 1-20 zone to close rifts, so why not just put in flight/horse paths? Why make me waste 10 minutes of my playtime going to point B when I'm probably not going to deal with the rifts anyways and will just walk around them. If you want people to close rifts, you make the rewards worthwhile so I WANT to close rifts, not make the gameplay such that I HAVE to close rifts or walk around them to get to what I wanted to do when I logged in.

[Kageru]

Cross-server instances are a trade off. The probably realised that most MMO players don't have social connections to players outside of their own guild, and in many cases not even to all members of the guild. So if you are going to PUG you probably don't care who you get, and making it cross-server makes it easier and faster to form balanced groups.

I will agree that WoW has moved very strongly to the "game" end of the MMO space. The zones are all theme parks with "rides" sitting next to each other, progression mapped out for you and content in neat little bite sized pieces. It makes me me miss the more slow moving "virtual worlds" of more innocent EQ times. Though in reality I'm not sure I'd invest that much time again, there's some rose-colored glasses effect and most importantly any MMO that wants WoW's subscriber numbers is also going to have to be on the game end of the spectrum.

[Hawkbit]

That's really what it boils down to, for me.  EQ felt like a world; I was never able to see all of it, maybe half of it if I'm lucky.  On the other hand, from Nov 2004 through March 2005 I explored WoW thoroughly.  No zone left unturned.

While it was initially good to see more of the overall content in WoW and it felt immediately fulfilling, it most definitely has grown to feel like a game, not a world. 

Trion might go many different ways with this stuff.  I'm just hoping they retain more world than game.  It's a good balance now, but I wouldn't mind a shift into keeping people in the open world and not just warping whereever they want.