Rift: Planes of Telara

[Ratama]

Starcraft's Single Player/Multi player dichotomy =/= PvP/PvE in an MMO.  Not even close.

The reason non-CC abilities get nerfed via PvP in WoW is that PvP exposes imbalances faster than PvE; of course most nerfs come from PvP.

[Malakili]

Starcraft's Single Player/Multi player dichotomy =/= PvP/PvE in an MMO.  Not even close.

The reason non-CC abilities get nerfed via PvP in WoW is that PvP exposes imbalances faster than PvE; of course most nerfs come from PvP.

I think its very similar.  No one cares if you are OP in PvE because no one feels bad about losing.  In PvP a human being is getting their ass kicked because X is too powerful.  Same with SC2.  GRANTED, in something like WoW raiding, if mages are far superior to rogues (as a random example, I have no idea about class balance in WoW right now), the rogues do actually lose their raid spot to extra mages, so there is a semi competitive aspect there that makes PvE balance matter more in an MMO than in a single player game.  I think the principles aren't terribly far apart though.

[Ghambit]

Why not tweak gear rewards rather than the souls themselves??  For instance, obviously a pure healing oriented soul wont excel as much at pvp as a cc-drain oriented one.  So, make the BG turnins less valuable for the cc-drain oriented soul (or lower the BG rewards that you turnin for loot).  To take it further, you could assign 'pvp-values' to particular talents and those who spec higher get lesser rewards.  e.g. you have a value of 10 (from speccing a lot of cc, etc.) you get 5 BG insignias, but if you've got a value of 5 (from speccing more support) you get 10 insignias, etc.  Assuming you're successful in the BG.

This adds a bit of meta to the PvP-game that causes people to seriously consider the risk/reward potential for their pvp builds.  Furthermore, it brings skill rather than build more to the forefront.  Look at it as a "skill ante" similar to many tabletop games, wherein there are diminishing returns the more you spend.

[Draegan]

Here are the patch notes from Beta 3.

A few things of note concerning the soul system.

SOUL ACQUISITION
* All souls are now available in Meridian and Sanctum through soul-specific quests. These are just placeholder for now to prep the new system and will be replaced later with real quests.
* Souls are now given out sooner and with more choices available – all souls are available at level 1, and you will leave the starting zone with three souls for your character.
* Increased the number of soul points awarded to characters. You now receive 1 additional point every third level, and finish with a total of 66 points at level 50.
* Please let us know how the new point balance feels!

Pretty badass.

Yes, I have permission to post these.

[Ratama]

I love the potential character customization; I sure hope they don't end up using playstyle-specific souls as balance crutches.

I think its very similar.  No one cares if you are OP in PvE because no one feels bad about losing.

This is a joke post, right (green text?)?  You've really missed the years and literally millions of posts of PvE DPS-meter drama on WoW's forums?  (My sarcasm-ometer might be off).

[Ghambit]

Here are the patch notes from Beta 3.

A few things of note concerning the soul system.

SOUL ACQUISITION
* All souls are now available in Meridian and Sanctum through soul-specific quests. These are just placeholder for now to prep the new system and will be replaced later with real quests.
* Souls are now given out sooner and with more choices available – all souls are available at level 1, and you will leave the starting zone with three souls for your character.
* Increased the number of soul points awarded to characters. You now receive 1 additional point every third level, and finish with a total of 66 points at level 50.
* Please let us know how the new point balance feels!

Pretty badass.

Yes, I have permission to post these.

And next will come the mandatory difficulty increase.

[Ratama]

And next will come the mandatory difficulty increase.

Maybe new PvE-only Souls will help offset the difficulty!

[Threash]

Here are the patch notes from Beta 3.

A few things of note concerning the soul system.

SOUL ACQUISITION
* All souls are now available in Meridian and Sanctum through soul-specific quests. These are just placeholder for now to prep the new system and will be replaced later with real quests.
* Souls are now given out sooner and with more choices available – all souls are available at level 1, and you will leave the starting zone with three souls for your character.
* Increased the number of soul points awarded to characters. You now receive 1 additional point every third level, and finish with a total of 66 points at level 50.
* Please let us know how the new point balance feels!

Pretty badass.

Yes, I have permission to post these.

And next will come the mandatory difficulty increase.

Well this does obviously increase the power of your character, things were balanced enough before.

[Ghambit]

Yah, I thought the balance between npc and pc was pretty close if not a touch too easy.  Now that they're essentially tripling the early-game PC 'toolbox' they WILL have to tweak mob/noid dmg. and or HP.  There can be no doubt in this and one can safely assume that'll be the main thing they're looking at tonite.  But really, do they have to?  Kinda obvious.

[Lantyssa]

A lot of the abilities overlap early on though, depending on archtype.  I'm not sure they'll have to do all that much tweaking for the early levels.  Probably, for the higher levels, but that's not to be unexpected with a lot more points and flexibility at that level.

[Mrbloodworth]

SOUL ACQUISITION
* All souls are now available in Meridian and Sanctum through soul-specific quests. These are just placeholder for now to prep the new system and will be replaced later with real quests.
* Souls are now given out sooner and with more choices available – all souls are available at level 1, and you will leave the starting zone with three souls for your character.
* Increased the number of soul points awarded to characters. You now receive 1 additional point every third level, and finish with a total of 66 points at level 50.
* Please let us know how the new point balance feels!

That seems almost excessive in the other direction. Rather huge pendulum swing there.

[Malakili]

SOUL ACQUISITION
* All souls are now available in Meridian and Sanctum through soul-specific quests. These are just placeholder for now to prep the new system and will be replaced later with real quests.
* Souls are now given out sooner and with more choices available – all souls are available at level 1, and you will leave the starting zone with three souls for your character.
* Increased the number of soul points awarded to characters. You now receive 1 additional point every third level, and finish with a total of 66 points at level 50.
* Please let us know how the new point balance feels!

That seems almost excessive in the other direction. Rather huge pendulum swing there.

I dunno, I think a rather big change was needed. It seemed like for all the customization available, it was most viable to simply pump one soul most of the time, and that kind of defeats the purpose.  Hopefully these additional points will help make it more viable to spread points around a bit.  Granted, I don't know what the max level for Beta 3 will be, so it might not matter.

[Lucas]

SOUL ACQUISITION
* All souls are now available in Meridian and Sanctum through soul-specific quests. These are just placeholder for now to prep the new system and will be replaced later with real quests.
* Souls are now given out sooner and with more choices available – all souls are available at level 1, and you will leave the starting zone with three souls for your character.
* Increased the number of soul points awarded to characters. You now receive 1 additional point every third level, and finish with a total of 66 points at level 50.
* Please let us know how the new point balance feels!

That seems almost excessive in the other direction. Rather huge pendulum swing there.

Yes, quite intimidating for novice MMOG players ; I guess they'll find some sort of "middle road" along the way, though.

[Draegan]

It's not that drastic of a change.  You should have about 6 more points to play with by level 20.  That won't necessarily make you over powered.  Stronger for sure, not over powered though.

Edit:
Anyone playing this week I was wondering if you can help me out.  I'm going to start creating a user generated screenshot gallery and if you are willing, take a bunch of screenshots of anything in game and send them my way.

Draegan@riftjunkies.com

Thanks!

[Modern Angel]

Max level should still be 20 so far as I know. I don't think this changes much in the lowbie game; you're still wanting to make a beeline for the top of a single tree. It does change endgame pretty drastically, I would imagine.

[Draegan]

Max level should still be 20 so far as I know. I don't think this changes much in the lowbie game; you're still wanting to make a beeline for the top of a single tree. It does change endgame pretty drastically, I would imagine.

Not necessarily for some callings.

For Solo/Dps Builds:
For a Rogue you want to take 7 points into a Blade Dancer, then 12 in Bard.
For a Melee Clerics you want to go about 17 or so points into Druid then dump into a Shaman.

There are some tank builds you want to diversify.  However, it being under level 20, it's hard to make a mistake and the game is still forgiving to some degree.

[Threash]

Yeah, most of the chars i rolled didn't spend a single point until i got my second soul and didn't suffer for it.

[Rendakor]

I like this change a lot; it struck me as weird before that you only had enough points to max out one tree. Now you'll be able to dip into a second Soul at least, or go for some sort of hybrid build.

[Modern Angel]

Tanks would always be the exception to any rule. That awesome ability up top at 31 points may not be worth an extra 5% mitigation or whatever at the bottom.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the trees being 31 points to the top is new, right? It was 51? The roots are still 51 points which is a little... weird but offers some reward for deep speccing still.

[March]

Max level should still be 20 so far as I know. I don't think this changes much in the lowbie game; you're still wanting to make a beeline for the top of a single tree. It does change endgame pretty drastically, I would imagine.

Not necessarily for some callings.

For Solo/Dps Builds:
For a Rogue you want to take 7 points into a Blade Dancer, then 12 in Bard.
For a Melee Clerics you want to go about 17 or so points into Druid then dump into a Shaman.

There are some tank builds you want to diversify.  However, it being under level 20, it's hard to make a mistake and the game is still forgiving to some degree.

I don't know if I'll play... but I definitely want a soul-calculator NOW.

Fake edit: looks like riftfolebuilder is active

[Sky]

Faeblight, Defiant side. Bat Country charter started. I'm rolling with my cleric Kamata from beta 1 with a dps and heal role set up.

Use the teamspeak server! Info stickied in MMO forum.

I only work a couple hours this week, so I'll be on a bit to PL people if they want. Be nice to do a couple f13 dungeon runs before this beta cycle is over and get people prepped for next beta cycle with some level 20s.

[Jherad]

Apologies for starting up the forum guild then essentially vanishing - had a death in the family, had to travel, and didn't have any real internet access to speak of. If there is someone who wishes to take that over, I'd appreciate it - just send me a PM.

[SnakeCharmer]

I'll load it up tonight and shoot..somebody..a message.

[Draegan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the trees being 31 points to the top is new, right? It was 51? The roots are still 51 points which is a little... weird but offers some reward for deep speccing still.

It still takes 31 pts to get to the top of the tree and 51 pts to get to the bottom of the root.  Each Tree had 51 points in it, but you only needed 31 to get the top of the tree ability.    You gain most of a soul's abilities by 30 points in the root.  The rest of the abilities are usually fluff or situational with cooldowns towards the end.

[Segoris]

Soul vitality loss in pvp when no healers are around is a bit dumb. Otherwise, open pvp is about as expected

[Ashamanchill]

Based off what you all have said this is definately going to be the next mmo my friends and I play, getting precedence over even GW2.

[Hawkbit]

The new tree setup makes a lot more sense, though much of my initial abilities in all three trees are similar.  It's redundant and will likely confuse the heck out of some people starting up. 

BUT!  Giving the option to do 51pts in a tree while dabbling in another is going to be awesome.  I forsee a lot of two-tree builds. 

[Sky]

Two, tree, mebbe four. Fuggedabouddit.

Nobody on TS3, so lonely on faeblight, no signers on the guild charter. BC business as usual. 

[Lantyssa]

Haven't logged in yet.  Will try to tonight.

[sam, an eggplant]

I played a bit, finished the newbie area for defiants. It's fairly polished for a MMO beta, but the newbie experience needs a ton, and I mean a TON, of work to compete with WoW. Running around and killing 6 foozles doesn't cut it. There were two scripted encounters; one where you kill a dude that goes invulnerable and summons 3 other dudes until you kill him and the end of the newbie area interactive cinematic. The entire thing should be the same quality as that very end of the newbie area with the rift.

When I went back in time (left the newbie area) there was a rift nearby swarming with other players and monsters. I shot each monster between 0 and 1 times before it died. At the end I got a reward of basically a potion. The rift itself looked awesome, and the boss monster looked sweet, but they didn't have any special dialogue or scripting or anything. It was indeed fairly reminiscent of a public quest in WAR.

The soul mechanic is pretty confusing. You're faced with WAY too many choices within half an hour of starting play and receive no guidance whatsoever.

I started off as a necromancer, with a death magic bolt spell, a DoT, and a pet. Then I chose a warlock, because it said they worked well with necromancers, and I got another seemingly identical death magic bolt spell and a DoT. Then a chloromancer, and got a life magic bolt spell and a reactive heal (which was indeed new). These spells did something called "charges", which was never actually explained anywhere. This sort of duplication within a "class" and ambiguity is not a good thing. At level 8 I had something like 12 abilities. I can only imagine how many nearly identical abilities you'll have to manage at 50. Just like EQ2, sins of the father, etc.

As discussed extensively in this thread, it is EXTREMELY close to WoW. The achievement UI, for example, is reskinned WoW. Most of the buttons are the same. I guess I have no problem with that if the gameplay offered something new, but...

I dunno, guys. I'm not seeing what's so special here. What made you fall in love with this game?

[Draegan]

I'm live streaming if anyone wants to watch.

http://www.own3d.tv/live/11388

[Malakili]

I dunno, guys. I'm not seeing what's so special here. What made you fall in love with this game?

The massive Rift invasion they did during the last beta event was really something special.  The rest is basically normal MMO fare.  It was pretty awesome, and made me want to keep playing in beta 3 even though I basically thought the rest was boring quest grind material.  I basically agree with you though, its pretty standard otherwise, even the normal rifts are just PQs.

[Threash]

I dunno, guys. I'm not seeing what's so special here. What made you fall in love with this game?

The soul system.  Multiclassing, character building, coming up with new things.  The same thing that i loved about shadowbane and neverwinter nights.

[sam, an eggplant]

The soul system is indeed innovative, but it's presented in the worst way possible. The amount of choice and lack of explanation is paralyzing, like going to an asian supermarket to buy noodles and being faced with an entire aisle full of different types, all labeled in Cantonese and seemingly identical to the untrained eye. They need to slowly walk players through the mechanic, not toss us in the pool and see if we swim.

The ability duplication needs to go away. When a new player gets two spells with a 2.0s casting time that do exactly the same type and amount of damage in the first half hour of play, something is very wrong. This is one spot where they made a mistake deviating from the market leader. WoW carefully controls how many buttons players are expected to manage.

To put it another way, I chose warlock for my second soul, saw that "void bolt" was absolutely identical to "plague bolt", and took it off my bars. Then I put a point in and saw that my new "dark touch" DoT was identical to "necrosis". Took that off my bars too. As a developer, is that the kind of experience you want for your newbies?

Before anyone says it, I realize that I was supposed to take it off my bars, because talents further up the tree buff each tree's basic abilities. That's not the point. The point is that this is a confusing, unpolished, generally shitty newbie experience. I expect to have my hand held and be fed a constant diet of concentrated coolness for my first hour or so of play. I did not get that.

Also while the graphics are pretty, they suffer from shimmering textures, stuttering, and pop-in on my 5850. Oh, and there was an invisible wall right across the road about 20 feet up the hill from where you leave the newbie area. Invisible walls? Really? At least put a mountain there or a chain link fence or something.

[Threash]

The soul system is indeed innovative, but it's presented in the worst way possible. The amount of choice and lack of explanation is paralyzing, like going to an asian supermarket to buy noodles and being faced with an entire aisle full of different types, all labeled in Cantonese and seemingly identical to the untrained eye. They need to slowly walk players through the mechanic, not toss us in the pool and see if we swim.

I am not new to MMOs, this is the kind of thing i've been waiting a long time for.  The ability duplication thing is because each class has to be viable on its own.  Your complaints are all based around why some theoretical newbie might not like the game, yet you had no trouble knowing what to do.