Rift: Planes of Telara

[Modern Angel]

I'm a little sympathetic to the limitless specs which are also completely balanced and open because that would be rad. It's also impossible. Just glancing at the souls you have available and must have talents and roots jump out at you.

[Threash]

Ya but you can switch on the fly between 4 different specs. I guess I am having a hard time seeing the issue here. It literally takes two seconds to switch specs, you can even hotbar it.

It has nothing to do with that, the problem is being pigeon holed into having to put a lot of points into one specific soul if you want to pvp.  Being able to switch on the fly doesn't matter if when you want to pvp you have to use the pvp soul.

[Rendakor]

Can't you spec into 3 souls at a time?

[veredus]

to Rendakor: yes

to Threash: How is it different then if I want to heal I am pigeon holed into putting a lot of points into a healing soul? I personally would much rather just take the two seconds to swap to a different soul/spec instead of rerolling cause my class sucks at PvP or healing or whatever.

[Ghambit]

We gotta remember that Rift took a bit of AoC's tact on some of these talent/class builds.  Your typical cc-oriented +dmg pvp builds arent really the be-all end-all unless you're talkin about solo pvp.  There's a shitload of synergistic group-oriented pvp mechanics that we havent even talked about here.  Take AoC's Conqueror (arguably one of the greatest classes ever devised in any mmo imo); in Rifts, you can make a similar build (minus all the fancy bladework obviously).  Now, this build would suck ass in solo pvp... but as soon as it's grouped, it's the primary target for every opposing faction or it's typically instadeath if the Conq's group knows what they're doing.

This is only a small example since there seems to be your 'battlemaster/controller' type build in nearly every tree.  Obviously some are better at it than others like Champion, Justicar, etc.  But the choices are there.  Anyways, I guess I'm a bit of a head-scratcher myself at this whole pvp soul thing because of these facts.  There's just too much variety even in pvp builds to even warrant needing a pvp soul to begin with unless they're doing it to make pvp-battles more manageable. 

For instance, if everyone had vanilla gear/specs, in some cases it'd be near impossible to bring people down even when you're got the initiative.  So it's quite possible their engine breaks down in pvp w/o having souls that crank up the typical pvp stats.  I've seen this happen before in games that didnt anticipate this and they end up either swinging the nerf-bat too hard or creating a whole subset of pvp-only gear to TRY and balance things out.  In Rift's case, it's pvp souls I guess...  which imo is better than creating a mandatory gear-grind in order to compete.  Or is it?   

[Ratama]

Ya but you can switch on the fly between 4 different specs. I guess I am having a hard time seeing the issue here. It literally takes two seconds to switch specs, you can even hotbar it.

People tend to identify with/want to play their main spec.  Take WoW Arena, for example; everyone knew Aff Warlock/Resto Druid was OP as all hell in S2-3 in 2's, but most PvPers, even the hardcore, would rather stick to 'their' class/spec than reroll.

That's the issue.  I'm looking forward to trying a Shaman/Justicar, not a Shaman/PvP Crutch. Rift class combos are basically classes unto themselves; *forcing* me to change my class/playstyle to PvP competitively seems like is a shitty deal.

In Rift's case, it's pvp souls I guess...  which imo is better than creating a mandatory gear-grind in order to compete.  Or is it?  

Neither is necessary, let alone desirable.  Just add a global flag to PvP targets (or whoever they'd want to do it) that simulates said PvP gear/spec/Soul/whatever.

No soul-crushing (read: butt-hurting) item grind/mandatory PvP speccing necessary.

I really find it hilarious that while Trion says they want to make PvP less scary/more accessible for players... then they add additional roadblocks like mandatory PvP specs (and gear, from what I've heard).   Eh... more sad than funny, I guess.  6 months from now, they'll prolly be pointing fingers at everyone but themselves for the pink slips.

[Rendakor]

My main spec is DPS, but I wanna tank! I don't wanna tank in tank spec, I wanna tank in my main spec, my dps spec! WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ratama]

Of course many people that like DPSing don't want to have to respec/regear to 'tank', but are often forced to (and, I dare say, enjoy the game less then they would if they didn't have to).

Did you have an actual fucking point?

[waffel]

But you DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A PERFECT PvP SPEC.

I don't understand this. Why do you have to have the UBER PvP spec? Why can't you just play whatever the fuck you were playing in PvE and just have fun in PvP?

I haven't been in a beta yet (just got in), but I'm pretty goddamn sure your PvE spec will do just fine in PvP. I'm positive you'll be able to kill players and all that fun shit.

I really find it hilarious that while Trion says they want to make PvP less scary/more accessible for players... then they add additional roadblocks like mandatory PvP specs (and gear, from what I've heard).   Eh... more sad than funny, I guess.  6 months from now, they'll prolly be pointing fingers at everyone but themselves for the pink slips.

I'm sorry, but you're a dumbass.

How the fuck does a perfect PvP spec/perfect gear matter to the influx of new PvP players that Trion wants to pull into PvP? Guess what, it doesn't. They don't give a flying fuck if they have perfect gear or a perfect spec. Thats the point. The only people caring about it are poopsockers (you) who Trion sounds like they're not all that interested in since their focus is making PvP more accessible.

You seem hilariously out of touch with the majority of MMO gamers.

[Spiff]

I always hear the 'hardcore PvP'ers' talk about how "they want to compete" and "are looking for a real challenge", making a PvP build work without the PvP soul might be a nice challenge for them.
The not-so-fanatics get an easy little push in the right direction with the PvP soul, just throw a few points in this and you can feel competitive as well!

Everyone is happy, no? 

Honestly from what I've seen of these souls they're all about passive buffage, they offer little to no active utility (as opposed to every other soul I've seen).

[Ratama]

How the fuck does a perfect PvP spec/perfect gear matter to the influx of new PvP players that Trion wants to pull into PvP?

Because it's one more barrier between casual players and their not being victimized in PvP.

Most players don't want to have to worry about 'speccing right' to PvP, and they're not going to want to be an easy kill because they don't.  Think before you post, jackass.

Honestly from what I've seen of these souls they're all about passive buffage, they offer little to no active utility (as opposed to every other soul I've seen).

CC breaks and passive PvP-only % bonuses ~3 times as high as regular class passives.  Will be absolutely mandatory for anyone that doesn't enjoy RPing UO-style assrape victims.

[rattran]

Hey, I have an idea! Everyone stop being a shitheel in this thread. At least pretend to be civil.

[sam, an eggplant]

Could you be more wrong?   WoW, finally, went the opposite (and correct) way; no more PvP Sou... er, Talents.

You are incorrect.

WoW has abilities that act differently in PvP, stats useful only for PvP, gear required to PvP, and yes, many talents that are only useful in PvP. It's confusing for players and enormously difficult to balance. Many extremely cool and fun PvE abilities had to be nerfed due to PvP implications, and probably vice versa.

Now you're correct that the design goal for the latest expansion is for WoW to have no PvP-only talent trees. That is a weakness, because they will fail to balance all the specs equally (if such a thing is even possible), and some specs will come out on top for PvP and some for PvE. This is of course already happening, so there's no meaningful debate here.

[Rendakor]

Of course many people that like DPSing don't want to have to respec/regear to 'tank', but are often forced to (and, I dare say, enjoy the game less then they would if they didn't have to).

Did you have an actual fucking point?

The point is that you have to spec for the role you want to play, be that tank, dps, heal, or (heaven forbid) PVP. Just like you might spec one way while leveling up, then respec for endgame raiding.

[Ghambit]

How ironic, every time PvP comes up in these games people go for eachother's throats.   

[waffel]

CC breaks and passive PvP-only % bonuses ~3 times as high as regular class passives.  Will be absolutely mandatory for anyone that doesn't enjoy RPing UO-style assrape victims.

Funny, same thing as DAoC. Which was a fine PvP game. Were the abilities required? Yes, in 8 man group or solo play. Not so much in zerg play.

I picture the same exact thing in Rift. Seems perfectly fine to me.

[Draegan]

Well this whole PVP debate has been a big break in the NDA.

[Pennilenko]

I thought this place was supposed to respect nda rules. It would suck if red names had to start avoiding us.

[Threash]

Why is this an NDA break? you could get the pvp souls during the last beta weekend.

[Rendakor]

I was only in the beta event a few weeks ago, and did no PVP; I've been speaking entirely from speculation and previous MMO experience.

[Ghambit]

Well this whole PVP debate has been a big break in the NDA.

How so?

[rattran]

Anyone in the Alpha should be saying nothing at all about it, those in the beta weekends can talk. If you're in both, I think staying quiet is for the best as well.

[Ratama]

I thought this place was supposed to respect nda rules. It would suck if red names had to start avoiding us.

This conversation isn't breaking the Rift NDA; it's really a conversation about game design vs specific mechanics, anyway.  

And we've already seen many of these same devs make a dog's dinner out of Warhammer PvP; I'm thinking that's no longer covered by an NDA. :p

CC breaks and passive PvP-only % bonuses ~3 times as high as regular class passives.  Will be absolutely mandatory for anyone that doesn't enjoy RPing UO-style assrape victims.

Funny, same thing as DAoC. Which was a fine PvP game.

You probably don't remember how fun-wreckingly OP CC was in DAoC at first.  And Trion's making the same mistake with Rift.  And many of them also fucked up CC in Warhammer PvP, too; not such a great batting average for these folks so far.

Were the abilities required? Yes, in 8 man group or solo play. Not so much in zerg play.

I picture the same exact thing in Rift. Seems perfectly fine to me.

Character customization wasn't a big selling point of DAoC's; it's arguably THE selling point of Rift, and forcing PvPers to make do of an inferior version of a core gameplay feature seems pretty shitty.

They could easily just lower damage output/CC durations in PvP as a global effect.  That's much less onerous that forcing people to respec.

Again, Trion has come out and said they want PvP to be more accessible and less scary for more players; forcing people to respec and relearn part of the game if they don't want to be victimized in PvP runs directly contrary to that stated goal.

[Tarami]

PvP is always going to be completely different to PvE. This is true even for games which are absolutely identical in single- to multiplayer, like Unreal Tournament. You have to learn a completely new set of skills and strategies to play against people, because people act fundamentally differently to bots. In shooters it's basically harmful to your multiplayer skills to play against bots, because you learn bad habits that don't apply against people.

The point is that you're going to have to re-learn everything you know about your given tools regardless of whether the tools are familiar or not. Changing familiar tools into unfamiliar tools (like through a global debuff) is probably going to cause even more confusion than having a different set of tools altogether. At least the new tools clearly signal that they ARE different.

Besides, you said it yourself - soul customization is going to be a major pull for Rift. People are going to be used to speccing and experimenting with builds. People HAVE to get accustomed to it because it's how you get all your skills.

[Ratama]

Learning to use your normal skills in new ways is a lot less of a hassle than learning all new ones; that's exactly the sort of familiarity they should work to preserve, not force folks out of to PvP.

[UnSub]

How the fuck does a perfect PvP spec/perfect gear matter to the influx of new PvP players that Trion wants to pull into PvP?

It matters when the casual PvPers repeatedly get a testicles-eye view of the poopsockers. 2 - 3% difference matters a lot if you assume that every PvP match is a baseline 50/50 chance to win for each side.

It's great that there is all this variety. 30 days out there will be a collapse into a few main soul / ability combinations that are determined to be the best for PvP (and PvE, for that matter). There will be a few fringe examples, but most players will ask, "What is the best build for PvP?" and the answers will be similar.

[sam, an eggplant]

Learning to use your normal skills in new ways is a lot less of a hassle than learning all new ones; that's exactly the sort of familiarity they should work to preserve, not force folks out of to PvP.

That's what blizzard thought too. But it's flat-out impossible to balance. You end up compromising both playstyles.

[Ratama]

That's not what happened with WoW's PvP at all.  PvE-oriented CC was/is the problem with their PvP; that's a different/bigger issue.

Nerfing CC/damage for PvP in general is a hell of a lot easier for the devs, and less intrusive for the players.

[Rendakor]

That's not what happened with WoW's PvP at all.  PvE-oriented CC was/is the problem with their PvP; that's a different/bigger issue.

Nerfing CC/damage for PvP in general is a hell of a lot easier for the devs, and less intrusive for the players.

I disagree with what you said.

[Lantyssa]

I have to as well, considering how many abilities I had nerfed to accommodate PvP.

[Malakili]

I have to as well, considering how many abilities I had nerfed to accommodate PvP.

I recall this being especially bad back in vanilla but I may be mistaken.

 The bigger issue as I see is that PvP is basically a side show in all these games.  Yeah sure lots of people do BGs and Arenas or whatever, but the reality is that they are mini games in the context of a bigger game.  PvP only MMOs have proven not to be big sellers, but not having PvP at all also seems to hurt your sales.  In the end this means we are getting MMOGs that are more and more a series of mini games, the only problem being all those mini games are balanced using one set of characters.   

I think RTS games like DoW2 and SC2 have gotten it right lately, and thats basically that their "PvE" and "PvP" sections are effectively two entirely different games.  An MMOG has a hard time doing that because its by definition one big game world, even when its heavily instanced or whatever, so you have this inherent conflict.  No one cares that you can get obscenely over powered upgrades in SC2 single player, because its just not the same game as SC2 multiplayer.

If PvP was a normal part of WoW, designed from the ground up with PvP and PvE existing side by side, then you can balance it around that. But when you try to separate them out, you ALSO have to separate out the characters, or the abilities, or something else you have this eternal conflict we've all come to know and love. 

Incidentally, EVE's solution to this is interesting, you can be skilled for a variety of things, but what really matters is your current ship fittings.  I guess this could be seen as somewhat like talents/specs but I think its a bit better.

[palmer_eldritch]

I have to as well, considering how many abilities I had nerfed to accommodate PvP.

I recall this being especially bad back in vanilla but I may be mistaken.

 The bigger issue as I see is that PvP is basically a side show in all these games.  Yeah sure lots of people do BGs and Arenas or whatever, but the reality is that they are mini games in the context of a bigger game.  PvP only MMOs have proven not to be big sellers, but not having PvP at all also seems to hurt your sales.  In the end this means we are getting MMOGs that are more and more a series of mini games, the only problem being all those mini games are balanced using one set of characters.   

I think RTS games like DoW2 and SC2 have gotten it right lately, and thats basically that their "PvE" and "PvP" sections are effectively two entirely different games.  An MMOG has a hard time doing that because its by definition one big game world, even when its heavily instanced or whatever, so you have this inherent conflict.  No one cares that you can get obscenely over powered upgrades in SC2 single player, because its just not the same game as SC2 multiplayer.

If PvP was a normal part of WoW, designed from the ground up with PvP and PvE existing side by side, then you can balance it around that. But when you try to separate them out, you ALSO have to separate out the characters, or the abilities, or something else you have this eternal conflict we've all come to know and love. 

Incidentally, EVE's solution to this is interesting, you can be skilled for a variety of things, but what really matters is your current ship fittings.  I guess this could be seen as somewhat like talents/specs but I think its a bit better.

Eve also doesn't worry about upsetting players by making them victims of crowd control. Crowd control (eg capacitor draining, similar to draining all a character's mana so they can't do anything) actually works better in PvP than PvE in Eve.

[Hoax]

Eve also doesn't worry about upsetting players

CCP.

As for the rest of this bs argument I couldn't stand reading, there are two historical reference points that need to be brought up.

a) cc in launch DAOC made for literally the worst pvp I've ever seen. It was so bad you couldn't even worry about their terrible stupid XXXlonesniperninjawolfXXX666 bullshit stealth classes.

b) we've seen this kind of complexity in character creation before in SB and I'd like to remind people how it was equal parts awesome and incredibly annoying. Does nobody remember centaur prelates? Flying dual wielding throwing hammer aracroix barbs? Nigh indestructible dwarf builds? Other crazy stuff people came up with?

I'm not going to make a point because I haven't played the game at all and I don't have a clue about resoul/spec options or what pvp how much pvp or how good the pvp will be. But for real I like the soul system and assuming it isn't soul crushingly hard to get all the souls and you really can remix which ones your using and your talent tree build on the fly I think it will be great for pvp unless gear is very specific and plays a huge part in maximizing every build.

[Ratama]

I have to as well, considering how many abilities I had nerfed to accommodate PvP.

I recall this being especially bad back in vanilla but I may be mistaken.

You guys are remembering wrong, I think.  They nerfed/buffed a lot of abilities, but PvP was only part of the equation in their minds.

I'm not so sure you should point at a game that at release only had one guy doing talent trees for every class, and spent two years making one of 4 tanking class/specs 'the' tanking spec due to dev butthurt from a previous game they *played*, as an example of a game that 'had to do what they did'.

WoW's game mechanic problems were a lot deeper/more complicated than mere PvE/PvP spillover; most of their nerfs are a symptom of game mechanic design flaws, as opposed to inevitable changes due to having PvE and PvP in one game.

[sam, an eggplant]

WoW's game mechanic problems were a lot deeper/more complicated than mere PvE/PvP spillover; most of their nerfs are a symptom of game mechanic design flaws, as opposed to inevitable changes due to having PvE and PvP in one game.

Thanks for elevating the discussion past the "u suck no u do" level. We appreciate it.

I don't think anyone is saying all of WoW's balance issues were due to PvP/PvE in the same trees. However, as a player, the nerfs that I can recall really pissing me off could all be traced back to PvP.

Blizzard fully realizes this, too. They talked about it several times in the pre-release Starcraft 2 press junket, emphasizing how their single-player and multi-player were really two different games, because all those cool over the top abilities in single-player wouldn't work in a competitive environment.

On another note, I registered december 23rd and just got into the annoyingly limited open-ish beta starting tomorrow, so obviously spots are still open.  Looking forward to trying this one out-- I haven't seen this kind of support from F13 since, well, the AoC beta.

Hrmm.