Rift: Planes of Telara

[sam, an eggplant]

I don't see how they're mutually exclusionary. Why not both?

If you have feature X in your MMO, its quality needs to be comparable or superior to the market leader's. Otherwise it shouldn't there in the first place.

[Sky]

Invites for beta event 3 are in the mail.

Planning on rolling Defiant on Faeblight. I have a cleric at 20 there and can heal anyone up through the levels if needed. If we have a concentration of f13ers on another beta server at lvl 20, sound off and we can roll there instead.

[Hawkbit]

Faeblight Defiant it is.  I'll be a paladin. 

[Modern Angel]

I don't see how they're mutually exclusionary. Why not both?

If you have feature X in your MMO, its quality needs to be comparable or superior to the market leader's. Otherwise it shouldn't there in the first place.

Because the tight focus and cinematic effects everyone is going apeshit over in Cataclysm is reliant on a tight, exclusionary story. There's still plenty of ways to conceivably do it so you get an open world's randomness but it ain't being done right now and won't be. If that's bothersome look no further than the market leader. But as it is right now there will never, ever be a mechanic like rifts in WoW because WoW is reliant on steady pacing and tight storylines. A rift eating the Crossroads and slaughtering a zone's worth of newbies for five hours would cause a shitstorm... in fact, it sort of already did once during the undead invasion.

[Tarami]

Patching at 10.5 MB/s is pretty awesome. First time ever I properly max my connection I think.

[Modern Angel]

Whatever pipes they're running on are absurd.

[Tarami]

Indeedio. It's like having the data centre for a neighbour.

[waffel]

nm already mentioned.

[UnSub]

RIFT is WoW a little bit further along the evolutionary ladder. I liked the Rift themselves, but the rest of it leaves me cold. It's not bad, it's just not for me.

[Zetor]

IMO Rift is only WOW++ if you're looking at BC WOW (2006-2007) as your measurement stick. WOTLK and especially Cata just do the standard diku stuff much better, imo.

However, I still enjoyed my beta time (in the defiant event). As already mentioned, the quests are nothing to write home about, but the game itself is solid -- also, the Iron Tombs instance was about on par with WOW instances (which are the best in the business currently, IMO), even though it was rather taxing for a low-level pug with strong CC and focus-fire requirements. Rift mechanics are interesting, and it's very good to see a non-sucky scaling implementation of PQs for a change.

[Lucas]

w00t, got the invitation again :). I haven't had the chance to explore the mage path, so I think I'll roll a defiant one.

Yeah, patching servers are insane: I constantly max out my connection here from Italy at 650kb/sec (on a 6MB ADSL) without any slowdown.

[palmer_eldritch]

Rift reminded me of WAR more than any other game. The rifts themselves are similar to WAR's public quests, the "straight into a war" tone and atmosphere is reminiscent of WAR's and even the fonts used were similar to what I recall from WAR.

I didn't play in Beta_event_2 because the servers were constantly full, but at least it shows that people want to log in to this game. I don't think that's true of every beta.

[Lantyssa]

Got my invite (you're off the hook, for now, Sky...) and some free time so I might make this one.  I'm curious just how much they'll be loosening up soul acquisition.

[Modern Angel]

IMO Rift is only WOW++ if you're looking at BC WOW (2006-2007) as your measurement stick. WOTLK and especially Cata just do the standard diku stuff much better, imo.

I think this is a completely fair observation. As it turns out, BC was the pinnacle of diku questing for me. Tighter storylines and more developed mechanics than WoW without the railroading and gated by quest stuff of LK and especially Cataclysm. I completely get why people might prefer the Cataclysm mode but it's been a hard sell for me.

[Ghambit]

It kinda strikes me as funny how we speculate on this game from literally one night's worth of gameplay (<lvl20).  My only real interest is in how things hold up near endgame, especially since re-rolling in this game isnt very desirable (unless you switch faction) due to the zone setup, quest monotony, and the logic behind souls in the 1st place.  The instanced meat of the game is also most important along with grouping content in general, which all doesnt take place until post-20 generally.

Soooo, the only people in here (that I know of) who know of what the game gives post-20 are **** and ****, since they're in the alpha.  And they cant discuss it really 'cause it's outside the realm of the weekend betas.

[Chimpy]

Possibly breaking other people's NDAs by throwing their names out is not cool, dude.

[Selby]

And they cant discuss it really 'cause it's outside the realm of the weekend betas.

That they can't ;-)

As my friend who works there said way back last year when I asked him what the game was going to be like: "WoW clone, but hopefully different enough to attract those who are no longer interested in the game."  He was pretty excited about it and still is, which is very nice to see from people working on a product.

[Nebu]

Possibly breaking other people's NDAs by throwing their names out is not cool, dude.

Are handles names now? 

[Ratama]

It kinda strikes me as funny how we speculate on this game from literally one night's worth of gameplay (<lvl20).

What exactly is Trion doing so differently with Rift that such speculation can't be more properly viewed as extrapolation, seen through +10 year's worth of MMO experiences?

We know that their decision to make PvP Souls will make said souls mandatory for PvP, and severely curtail the # of potential PvP builds (while making game balance easier, takes a mean dump all over the char customization they're touting as a selling point of their game).  From previous MMO experience, taking dump on your own game = SOP, but bad nonetheless.

Same with specialized gear for PvP and PvE; I don't need to experience both gear grinds on all their DIKUish glory to know that said grindage will be hard on working folks that enjoy both PvP and PvE.

If anything, I think most folks in this thread are being deliberately obtuse; there's certainly a preponderance of evidence, just in what's been publicly stated/released, to get a good handle on how this game will do, and what the intentions/capabilities of the world/class designers are.

[Threash]

The pvp souls are one thing i am not thrilled about.  Why ruin the best thing about your game with a must have talent dump?

[sam, an eggplant]

This is another spot where they learned a hard lesson from WoW. Trying to balance the same abilities across both PvE and PvP is an enormously difficult task, and you end up special-casing nearly everything anyway. There's no real payoff beyond the cosmetic. Separate is the right choice.

[HorRIFTic]

The pvp souls are one thing i am not thrilled about.  Why ruin the best thing about your game with a must have talent dump?

I can not say a whole lot but I will say this; do not worry about the PvP souls.  They are not a requirement for a PvP build.  In some builds they are nice and in some they are not needed.  There will be plenty of variation in Soul distribution in both PvE and PvP.  Yes, there will be "cookie-cutter" builds, there is no way to prevent that, but there is a wide variation on possible builds for PvP and the PvP souls are not part of all of them.

[Spiff]

I saw the PvP soul as their buffer to "everyone in the know runs the same cookie cutter 2 months into the game".
A somewhat easy tool for them to address unavoidable balance-issues without brewing up the whole "my PvE build got screwed for PvP"-shitstorm or vice versa and without being forced to start micro-managing every single soul to death.

People find must-have souls for PvP anyway (or convince themselves they have), Trion just put a big neon sign above 'em saying "PvP soul here!", hopefully giving them a bit more control.
Not the most elegant solution maybe, but it looks like a robust one.

All very theoretical though, endgame and PvP are still a big mystery for the most part to me (which is the one thing that bothered me about the beta; it's a very small taste of a big pie).

[Malakili]

It kinda strikes me as funny how we speculate on this game from literally one night's worth of gameplay (<lvl20).

The reality is, I'm not going to play an MMO to end game to see how it is anymore.

On to my opinions of Rift:

Enormous potential.  I actually think these rifts have the potential to be a lot  more than randomly appearing public quests.  The big invasion event (dm initiated) was one of the best MMO times I've had in a while, at least PvE wise.  Unfortunately, the rest of the pre 20 game is extremely extremely boring questing.  Tiny hubs, quests that aren't the least bit memorable or useful, kill 10 x, collect 8 y.

All the pieces are there, and if they can rearrange them in a more interesting way they'll be in good shape.

[Shatter]

It kinda strikes me as funny how we speculate on this game from literally one night's worth of gameplay (<lvl20).  My only real interest is in how things hold up near endgame, especially since re-rolling in this game isnt very desirable (unless you switch faction) due to the zone setup, quest monotony, and the logic behind souls in the 1st place.  The instanced meat of the game is also most important along with grouping content in general, which all doesnt take place until post-20 generally.

Soooo, the only people in here (that I know of) who know of what the game gives post-20 are #$y and $#@@!^n, since they're in the alpha.  And they cant discuss it really 'cause it's outside the realm of the weekend betas.

If the game doesnt grab me the first few hours why should I assume it will miracuously later?  The game is ok but really doesnt offer anything new outside of the rifts and lets face it, those will get boring after you have seen the 100th rift that week.  End game is going to be...and this is just a guess....instances and gearing!!  Personally I see little reason to leave X MMO you currently play(assuming you are having fun) for this one since this is just rehash of current MMO's with 1 thing thats "unique" but will become boring quickly.  Also based on the 2 faction setup you better pray that servers are balanced which as we know wont happen.  I see Rift as an MMO where if you arent playing anything or hate your current game then its a good option.  This is not a next-gen MMO. 

[Ratama]

This is another spot where they learned a hard lesson from WoW. Trying to balance the same abilities across both PvE and PvP is an enormously difficult task, and you end up special-casing nearly everything anyway. There's no real payoff beyond the cosmetic. Separate is the right choice.

Could you be more wrong?   WoW, finally, went the opposite (and correct) way; no more PvP Sou... er, Talents.

Fucking their best feature (char customization) with this PvP Soul bullshit is a first-class fuckup, and something they should have learned NOT do to from WoW.

I can not say a whole lot but I will say this; do not worry about the PvP souls.  They are not a requirement for a PvP build.

Yes, do worry, because yes, they ARE mandatory if you want a competitive PvP build.  Have you ever even PvPed before?  A couple of devs/hand-picked testers mucking around =/= the reps that release PvP will put into PvP builds.

If you think the PvP souls won't be mandatory, then you don't know shit about MMO PvP.

[Lantyssa]

There are PvP souls?  Are these in addition to the eight each?  Because from a PvE perspective, they all seemed equally valid.

(Though really, PvP in a game not designed exclusively for PvP is going to suck, so why even bother?)

[Rendakor]

Yes, do worry, because yes, they ARE mandatory if you want a competitive PvP build.  Have you ever even PvPed before?  A couple of devs/hand-picked testers mucking around =/= the reps that release PvP will put into PvP builds.

If you think the PvP souls won't be mandatory, then you don't know shit about MMO PvP.

And how much competitive PVP have you done in Rift so far? What's your arena team ranking? Link me achieves for 2s, 3s, and 5s, or GTFO. 

[waffel]

I don't understand, do people want worthless fluff PvP souls or do they want useful souls with the issue being that they are required 'to be competitive'?

Or do they live in some magical dream world where they expect a MMO company to release 2 factions, various different classes, various different abilities, and somehow make PvP souls useful, but not required?

Looking back at pre-ToA DAoC, there were a few required Realm Abilities on most classes (Purge, endurance for melee classes, MoC for caster, etc) and a shitton of ones that were up to the user to get. I thought it worked well.

And finally, fuck competitive PvP. If you enjoy poopsocking the PvP element of a game and boiling it down to the absolute 'best' classes/soul setup, good. Have fun playing with the other minority of 'e-gamers' From what I saw in other MMOs with a competitive scene like that, it was nothing but elitists running around bitching nonstop about 'zerging' and 'bullshit classes' and 'radar hacks' The other majority of the playerbase will be running around experimenting and trying different abilities and really don't give two shits if some archer class on the other faction has some overpowered PvP soul that does 5% more damage than their faction's corresponding archer.

[Tearofsoul]

There are PvP souls?  Are these in addition to the eight each?  Because from a PvE perspective, they all seemed equally valid.

(Though really, PvP in a game not designed exclusively for PvP is going to suck, so why even bother?)

Yes, there are PvP souls in addition to the eight :D

[Ratama]

And how much competitive PVP have you done in Rift so far? What's your arena team ranking? Link me achieves for 2s, 3s, and 5s, or GTFO.

Rift doesn't bring any special new Diku mechanics; if you've played EQ/AC/DAoC/WoW etc, then you've played Rift.

I don't understand, do people want worthless fluff PvP souls or do they want useful souls with the issue being that they are required 'to be competitive'?

Rift would be better off without either; but the PvP Souls are OP as fuck in PvP compared to, say, the benefits of taking a second or third soul (points in the PvP Soul trees give insane PvP-only % buffs to damage/healing, etc.)

PvP fluff-souls would be stupid, but ultimately not as damaging as forcing anyone that wants to PvP in your game (and not be an automatic victim) to change from their PvE build.

Or do they live in some magical dream world where they expect a MMO company to ... somehow make PvP souls useful, but not required?

Apparently some folks are fucking ignorant/stupid and expect just that, yes.

[Ratama]

There are PvP souls?  Are these in addition to the eight each?  Because from a PvE perspective, they all seemed equally valid.

(Though really, PvP in a game not designed exclusively for PvP is going to suck, so why even bother?)

Honestly, they shouldn't bother; I think far more folks would prefer to be able to que for a BG and not *have* to switch specs; they'll never get PvP balance perfect anyway, so why fuck with their most fun game mechanic (char customization)?

Not to mention 'second-class citizen syndrome'; why are PvPers forced to spec a certain way, but not PvEers?  I find it hard to believe that folks will drop their WoW Guilds/Raid to come poopsock in Rift; I'd guess that they'll get far more folks doing 'Warfronts' or w/e than raiding.

[Modern Angel]

Wait, don't you eventually have access to all the souls in a given class? If so who cares? Respeccing is painless, limitless and customizable. If I'm a cleric whose Heal Dude soul sucks then I just go to the store and turn into a Vampire Warrior soul or whatever. There's not even need to reroll which is the real punishment for people who choose poorly.

[Threash]

Wait, don't you eventually have access to all the souls in a given class? If so who cares? Respeccing is painless, limitless and customizable. If I'm a cleric whose Heal Dude soul sucks then I just go to the store and turn into a Vampire Warrior soul or whatever. There's not even need to reroll which is the real punishment for people who choose poorly.

The point isn't having to respec, it's that having a must have talent sink like a pvp soul kills the variety of character building which is pretty much the biggest draw in this game.

[veredus]

Ya but you can switch on the fly between 4 different specs. I guess I am having a hard time seeing the issue here. It literally takes two seconds to switch specs, you can even hotbar it.