Rift: Planes of Telara

[Kageru]

I tried playing UO, but it was just a historical relic rather than a game at that point (a year ago). Indeed UO had pretty much committed suicide by the time I started in EQ.

[Draegan]

I'm going to be a bit blunt here: I'm willing to bet money that the thought of dynamic (as in player-influenced) content is so tantalizing to people because of how it would enable them to affect the world and how it would let them influence other people by playng the game well and that it has very little to do with how other people can affect them. At its core it's about the acquisition and display of status.

Fail. I can't take the rest of it seriously after that. Pile on the false dichotomy between "robotic soul-suckingly static game" and "bizzare hellworld that catasses can exploit to unplayability" and I can't even work up the interest to post a lengthy response.

He's right though.  People love the thought of dynamic content (where you influence the world) because they enjoy the thought that they might be able to change something and then say to other people, "Hey look, I did that."  It's a form of epeen or trophy.  It's the same way people like showing off their new and awesome rare weapon/armor.  People like dreaming of getting better stuff (the carrot), now people can dream about changing the world.

[Mrbloodworth]

To go back to the original argument - in the Wurm thread, this was posted:

I logged in for the first time. I was asked to go find a tree. Apparently there wasn't a tree for several square miles. I stopped right about there.

This is an example of a reaction when an effect can be observed, but its cause cannot. MrBloodworth explained that this was because the newbie area is heavily farmed, since all new players get that task. The tangential reason is that the world dynamic in the sense that it is influenced by player actions. Making for example the trees grow back faster if the area is more heavily farmed is actually going to make the world less dynamic, as the individual experiences will more strictly conform to a static design (the task is supposed to take yay effort to complete.)

To add more detail to the case example. That problem, is unique to the starting area. New players are a constant influx, and take resources with them when they never log in again. Most long term players and paying players practice sustainable forestry (yes, we have a skill, tools and sprouts for trees). However new players come in, and expect there to be trees, understandable as we ask them to cut one. In the live game, if you deforest your area, we do nothing, its game play, it is you affecting the world, you fix it. Its a problem in the start area, because we are attempting to teach new players to play and we have to fight the things they learn from other games (If I cut tree, it will be back in 20 minutes. When the reality, our fastest tree will grow to a high wood producing state in about 3-4 RL days, our longest and most rare, real months).

My current problem is, how do I solve the deforestation in the starting area, with out setting a bad precedence (tree grow back fast), or teach the wrong things.

Contrary to popular belief, (lol) the version lorekeep encountered, is a much improved version of the starting area. I have been making tweaks to it over the past few months as well, creating more of a flow and trying to herd cats. 

[Lantyssa]

An apparent example. In a generic DIKU, there's a heritage mechanism for instance bosses that does so that every time a boss is killed, it will be replaced by a slightly more powerful mob that drops slightly better loot. Are new or sporadic players going to be able to beat this new and improved boss, six months down the line? The answer is most likely no. More dedicated players have dictated how the game is supposed to be played and at the same time taken some of this power out of the hands of the developers.

You're trying to think of examples for doing things the way they have always been done.

What if killing the boss spawns a family instead?  Boss' dad is upset and so the now stronger players get to fight him.  But his wife and kids also spawned.  They're now terrorizing lowbie areas, or offer a solo adventure in the old lair.  Most importantly though, they aren't as powerful as their father.  It's dynamic, it's caused by player actions, however those results provide content for other players who may not be as far along.

Gods know I hate DIKU anyways, and Telara is aiming for breadth over depth from what they've said so far, so we're not even talking the same progression model.  It's far more akin to Guild Wars if this holds true.

Wow's approach is, to my mind, optimal. [...]

On what Heroes of Telara dynamic content will be? The version they actually implement will be PQ's that aren't always available. I'd put money on it. And then some clever person is going to wonder why content that hides itself is a good thing. Unless your game has excess content and can afford to sacrifice some base-line content in this fashion.

No, they have them all the time. It's "Children's week" at the moment. That's the advantage of the approach, seasonal events for zero cost once implemented. Sure, they could do more with it or evolve it faster... but it's probably not a high priority.

Does not compute.

[Soulflame]

Have a new player plant a tree before they cut one down?

[Mrbloodworth]

Have a new player plant a tree before they cut one down?

Crossed my mind. Other things preclude that happening though, like where the sprout comes from and, we get a new player about ever 5-15 minutes. Sometimes whole groups of 30.

Sorry, I was posting to illustrate that balancing "static" things VS. dynamic (and by dynamic, we really mean you can screw yourself, not with out recourse though)

[Count Nerfedalot]

Have a new player plant a tree before they cut one down?

Crossed my mind. Other things preclude that happening though, like where the sprout comes from and, we get a new player about ever 5-15 minutes. Sometimes whole groups of 30.

Sorry, I was posting to illustrate that balancing "static" things VS. dynamic (and by dynamic, we really mean you can screw yourself, not with out recourse though)

Wait, you have a newbie experience that, to be experienced, requires a tree to be cut down.  But you not only cannot supply enough trees for all the newbies to experience, but you can't even handle all the newbies PLANTING a frigging tree to replace the one they cut down?? 

OK, I'll stop pointing and laughing and try to be constructive.

How about having multiple newbie paths which vary based on what needs doing the most?  If there is a forest there, have them cut down a tree.  If there are no trees within X distance, give them a shovel instead of an axe and have them get a tree from the nursery and plant it.  If there are no trees at the nursery, give them a bucket and rake instead of a shovel and have them collect acorns from where the trees used to be and plant THEM at the nursery then water them with the bucket.  If the nursery is fully stocked with sprouts but there's no saplings ready to plant and no trees ready to harvest then give them a fishing pole and a spade and have them catch a fish and bury it next to a sapling in the nursery to fertilize it so it grows faster.  

Have all those quests available simultaneously, but make the chance of each proportional to how much it is needed to balance everything again.

But teach the newbies about the game by telling them to do something they can't possibly do because too many people already did it?? 

*goes back to pointing and laughing*

*gasp* *wheeze*

well, I guess if the game is about kicking the player in the groin, then the newbie experience really has done the job of introducing the player to the game!  

[Ingmar]

I think perhaps the best answer is "don't tell them to cut down a tree." Have them cut down some bamboo or something, that crap grows like mad.

[Mrbloodworth]

The response above is a bit of off, because you don't have the full picture. I wasn't really trying to solve the issue in this thread, and there is more to it than what I posted. You also seem to think it work on a game with big staff and a budget 

I was just trying to illustrate the trials and considerations when trying to change learned behaviors from other games.

Sorry for the derail, I look forward to seeing what HoT is all about, its one of the few mainstream MMO's that interests me for various reasons.

[Mrbloodworth]

Breaking: Palladium Books sues Trion Worlds over "Rifts" title

Kinda seen that coming. Especially sense I know palladium has been shopping the IP for a mmo for a while.

When I was reading some of the concepts for Telara I kinda thought "This is rifts, but only some of the books", I didn't want to be that guy though, and I am sure that if anything there was only some inspirations from the RIFTSRPG, not whole lifting. In fact I know its not just lifted.

[Stabs]

Interesting. You can't trademark a common word. I wonder what the courts consider "common" and whether the word rifts qualifies. It certainly is a pretty common fantasy trope.

Edit: wrong jurisdiction. Under US law

There are guidelines to consider when creating a trademark, such as avoiding generically descriptive terms (such as Guns Magazine for a gun magazine)
http://www.patentpending.com/tmark.html

[Ingmar]

Palladium can afford lawyers?

EDIT: Wait, Palladium knows the internet exists?

[Ghambit]

I wonder if this thread in any way prompted the lawsuit.  F13 is a fairly visible entity on the web.
If so, I guess that would make me "that guy."  Oh well.  I dont know anyone that even PLAYS the Rifts pnp rpg anymore (people do play it but it's fairly dead and if people wanted that style they could just go Planescape or Spelljammer) so frankly I'd be happy if I was Palladium.  HoT will attract more people to their product rather than take them away.  A smart nerdrepreneur would embrace Trion, not sue them.

Doubt it not though, HoT is basically "Rifts: Online."  (shrug)  But so what.  Rifts wasnt the first IP to use those tropes anyways.  At most maybe the lawsuit would garner a name-change, but again... that's more harmful to Palladium than helpful imo.  Why not wrap the PnP game around HoT?  Take some lore from the books, ease up the writing and quest generation, etc.  I mean, why reinvent the frakkin wheel?  Also, the Palladium books essentially would provide a free fictional marketing tool for the online game... so imo it'd behoove Trion to just license the IP and do a crossover.

We're not talkin a whole helluva lot of money here.  These PnP IPs are mostly garage operations that can be bought fairly cheaply... if not the physical parts, the human elements who do the writing.
In essence, this lawsuit should actually be to FORCE Trion to add the "s" onto Rift (making it Rifts), not to make them change the name entirely.  This way everyone wins.

[Kail]

Doubt it not though, HoT is basically "Rifts: Online."

Are you seeing something I'm not?  Because the only media I've seen for this game looks nothing like Rifts, at least as I remember it.  Rifts RPG was a sci-fi post apoc thing, an "everything and the kitchen sink" mishmash of magic and giant robots and psychics and aliens and powered armor.  I'm not seeing anything in Heroes of Telara that isn't standard fantasy.  Their classes look like warrior, rogue, mage, etc.  their announced races are Elf and Humans with pretentious, unpronounceable names.  They don't even use guns, as far as I can see.  Is there more out there that I haven't seen yet?

[Lantyssa]

I wonder if this thread in any way prompted the lawsuit.  F13 is a fairly visible entity on the web.

No, it didn't.

[Ghambit]

Doubt it not though, HoT is basically "Rifts: Online."

Are you seeing something I'm not?  Because the only media I've seen for this game looks nothing like Rifts, at least as I remember it.  Rifts RPG was a sci-fi post apoc thing, an "everything and the kitchen sink" mishmash of magic and giant robots and psychics and aliens and powered armor.  I'm not seeing anything in Heroes of Telara that isn't standard fantasy.  Their classes look like warrior, rogue, mage, etc.  their announced races are Elf and Humans with pretentious, unpronounceable names.  They don't even use guns, as far as I can see.  Is there more out there that I haven't seen yet?

You're right in the sense the core books started in that genre.  But the entire "multiverse" encompasses pretty much everything, including Fantasy.  All of these "planescapish" games start with a basic lore template and then pretty much branch out to everywhere from there.  Trion's game simply starts Fantasy, but since it's server-side and their design is "planescapish" there's really nothing preventing them from branching out like all the others do.  These "rifts" are said to transform the actual area around them into whatever yes?   Also, I do wonder if players will ever be able to step through one and address the game from the "other side."  i.e. A group of mechas pop out of one rift slowly transforming "Fantasyland" into "Mechaland" and perhaps a player could just walk through and enter "Mechaland."   (shrug)  Regardless of which, it's the same effect.  You're playing a different game each time... hopefully.

[Mrbloodworth]

Palladium history would explain why this is happening. Embezzlement and a slew of companies attempting to copy the IP. Hes protective, because its his life's work. And rifts does indeed contain the Palladium RPG (Fantasy), but i think this has more to do with the name, and the rifts concept.

Add an "S" to this games title, and it can easily be confused as another book in the series.

[Ghambit]

Do you agree that both products would mutually benefit by parsing off eachother?  Or am I the only fool to think this.   

[UnSub]

Do you agree that both products would mutually benefit by parsing off eachother?  Or am I the only fool to think this.   

They could certainly do a deal, but from the Rifts perspective, they'd rather get paid a licensing fee.

[Stabs]

In essence, this lawsuit should actually be to FORCE Trion to add the "s" onto Rift (making it Rifts), not to make them change the name entirely.  This way everyone wins.

It's the opposite. It's Rift not Rifts because it's a real stretch to claim all variations of the word especially since there's a pre-existing fantasy literature IP called the Riftwar Saga.

[Ghambit]

In essence, this lawsuit should actually be to FORCE Trion to add the "s" onto Rift (making it Rifts), not to make them change the name entirely.  This way everyone wins.

It's the opposite. It's Rift not Rifts because it's a real stretch to claim all variations of the word especially since there's a pre-existing fantasy literature IP called the Riftwar Saga.

You kinda missed my point.
The idea is to come to an agreement to go ahead and name the MMO directly after the pnp IP, which would be RIFTS not Rift.  Since they've already delineated "Planes of Telara" they pretty much have license to run with whatever from there... since that plane in essence has little to do with the original Rift "starter area."  But there's no reason they couldnt incorporate some Palladium lore anyways.

[Stabs]

No, I got your point but I don't think it's realistic. For 2 good reasons:

1. Kevin.
2. Siembieda.

[Kail]

Doubt it not though, HoT is basically "Rifts: Online."

I'm not seeing anything in Heroes of Telara that isn't standard fantasy.

You're right in the sense the core books started in that genre.  But the entire "multiverse" encompasses pretty much everything, including Fantasy.  All of these "planescapish" games start with a basic lore template and then pretty much branch out to everywhere from there.  Trion's game simply starts Fantasy, but since it's server-side and their design is "planescapish" there's really nothing preventing them from branching out like all the others do.

There's nothing stopping them from branching out, I'll concede, but that doesn't make it at all similar to Rifts RPG.  World of Warcraft has "rifts" to other dimensions in it, and I don't think I'd consider that similar to Rifts RPG.  Most of the D&D settings I can recall have other planes (at least in the form of some Astral realm and some Underworld/Infernal realm).  The thing that made Rifts RPG stand out was it's basic lore, the idea that you'd be fighting alongside the Ninja Turtles in TMNT&OS and then a portal would open up in the street and Rick Hunter's Veritech would fly through.  It was about hoping you had enough credits to buy nuclear missiles for your mecha in case you ran into a dragon while flying to Atlantis.  This game has none of that.

I mean, yes, you could re-tool it to look like Rifts, and if they do that, I'll concede that I'm wrong, but you could say the same thing about any Fantasy RPG, or just about any RPG anywhere.  If I was playing WoW and a portal opened up and Juicers and Coalition Psi-Stalkers started pouring out, it could be a Rifts game, sure.  But until that happens, I think it's kind of pushing it to say that it's basically the same as Rifts, you know?

[Hoax]

Someone being insanely vigilant and antagonistic in "protecting their IP"?  That never happens!

Fuck Rifts all the people who do spend enough time in game stores to know of it but never played it think of black terminators when they think of Rifts oh and I'm pretty sure a bad rule system in terms of complexity for complexities sake but again never played it just pretty sure that is what someone told me.

If anyone should be suing anyone its the Terminator franchise suing Rifts for stealing the fuck out of their art.

[Mrbloodworth]

The above statements are retarded. You should tell that to who ever told you such things.

[Ghambit]

The above statements are retarded. You should tell that to who ever told you such things.

To his defense, it was a statement encapsulating most of the pnp world.  That is, it's one big copyright infringement.  From design all the way to purchase (wherein folks routinely give out or resell material, assuming they got it "kosherly" in the first place).  If it's not this, it's studios annihlating themselves on overzealous licensing structures or just by putting out crap... to the point no one gives a shite by the time they become sensible and go OGL.

The IPs that do best are the ones with loose licensing, if any at all.  And Palladium is making the classic mistake of biting a hand that could possibly feed them.  Ah, this aint even worth discussing  - we're talking peanuts monetarily here.  Hartsman could buy the whole Palladium production crew with his petty cash allotment; most of those guys probably have day jobs at Gamestop and pen geek lore and game systems in their free time. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Licensed properties

Palladium Books has licensed some of their intellectual properties to third-party developers. In 2000, Palladium's flagship line Rifts was licensed to the now defunct Precedence Entertainment for a collectible card game. In 2004 Rifts was licensed to create the Rifts: Promise of Power video game for the failed Nokia N-Gage gaming platform. Only one licensed role-playing game book has ever appeared using the Palladium engine, Rifts: Manhunter.

As of 2004, Palladium Books optioned the Rifts film rights to Walt Disney Pictures. Jerry Bruckheimer Films is said to be developing the movie in conjunction with scriptwriter David Franzoni. As of 2006, there is no information regarding the movie available on IMDB. An April 19, 2006 press release [3] by Kevin Siembieda stated that "until Jerry Bruckheimer has a script he loves, the movie can’t get the green light." In the January 15, 2007 press release [4] it was stated that the movie option has been extended one year.

Financial troubles and the "Crisis of Treachery"

On April 19, 2006, Kevin Siembieda published a press release[5] stating Palladium Books' critical financial difficulties due to embezzlement and theft resulting in $850,000 to $1.3 million in damages[6] coupled with a series of delays in licensing their properties for other media (the N-Gage game, the still in-development Jerry Bruckheimer movie, a MMOG license, and other potential deals). They raised money to continue operations by selling a signed and numbered (but not, strictly speaking, a "limited edition") art print by Kevin Siembieda, as well as urging fans to buy directly from their online store if their financial situation allows for it.

An April 26, 2006 article[7] in the Kingsport, TN Times-News, revealed that Steve Sheiring, Palladium's former sales manager, had been sentenced in a plea bargain to a misdemeanor conviction, one year of probation and ordered to pay $47,080 in restitution to Palladium Books in connection with these thefts. It also provided more information about the thefts, which took place from 2002 to 2004 and were only discovered when Palladium took inventory.

Responding to the controversy engendered by such a low settlement amount in relation to the large loss figure claimed in his earlier press release, Kevin Siembieda posted an open letter[8] to the Palladium forum explaining the matter. Siembieda stated that he had not wanted to make public Sheiring's identity out of the fear that overzealous fans might get into trouble by committing acts of reprisal. He explained that the heaviest punishment Sheiring had been likely to receive even without the plea bargain was probation. Siembieda had a choice between getting any amount of settlement money at all to pay critical bills, or spending more time and money to attempt to get his "pound of flesh" from a man who was reportedly broke anyway. Given the urgency of Palladium's situation, Siembieda did not feel he had any real choice but to take what little he could get.

During the week of May 7, 2007, Palladium announced that revenues from increased sales of its books, its Open House and the art print sales had covered most of the immediate-term damages incurred by Palladium. The period of financial instability became referred to by Siembieda as the "Crisis of Treachery", in keeping with his stance that the root cause of the difficulties was the embezzlement engaged in by Sheiring.

Rather explains why this is what it is. There is a MMO option out already, as well as movies and such, and the entire thing was brought back from the brink after loosing millions to embezzlement. I don't see this as "trying to get rich" I read the entire ordeal as trying to protect the rifts space and to avoid confusion of other titles in the same spaces, even for potential entries to those spaces. There are also sub licensees in the Rifts IP, TMNT, robotech....

[Ghambit]

Trust me Blood, he didnt lose millions.  He lost at most 10's of thousands.  He's clamining millions in "damages."      
How can one damage something that's already broke?

If these little pen&paper getups want a piece of the bigger pie, they have to more actively participate... not just wave their license around like it's minted paper.   And which MMO has the Rifts license?  No one.  His problem is he's looking for one and fails.

Gamesradio: What is the progress of the Rifts® MMORPG?

Kevin Siembieda: I'm afraid right now it is stalled. Every time we think we have found a company that can do the job, something happens to kill the deal. The company goes out of business, fails to get the necessary financing, or experiences other problems that put an end to our hopes for a Rifts® online game. We're still looking for an established electronic game company who can make this dream a reality, but right now we are stalled. A pity, because we think Rifts® is the perfect vehicle for an epic and endless MMORPG with unlimited possibilities.

Again, the obvious solution is for Palladium to support HoT, not the other way around.  Let em generate some lorebooks for the game loosely (very) affiliated with the original Rifts world and get paid for it. 

[Musashi]

Or they could just change the name to Schism.

[Draegan]

or Holes

[Hoax]

The above statements are retarded. You should tell that to who ever told you such things.

Rifts is a ADND1 based ruleset that never streamlined, it has super damage weapons and armor, hella percentile checks and basically the books are a fucking mess.  None of that is not true.  You can not be the authority on what people who don't give a fuck about Rifts think when clearly you give way too much of a fuck about Rifts.

This guy running Palladium is obviously a clown, as other posters have said they will just not call them rifts if they even bother to do that and move on.  He can't control the idea of multiple universes/dimensions and honestly Telara seems to be using the rifts for gameplay not setting purposes.

I hope his grab at drumming up some publicity for his nobody gives a fuck game system backfires and he loses money for being a litigious douche.

[Mrbloodworth]

The above statements are retarded. You should tell that to who ever told you such things.

Rifts is a ADND1 based ruleset that never streamlined, it has super damage weapons and armor, hella percentile checks and basically the books are a fucking mess. 

Never evolved? Never streamlined? ADND1?? You said you never played it. You were told such things. I played it, even ran it, and I am telling you its not true, not from someone who used it, and prefers the system. I may indeed be biased, but thats because after playing a number of systems, I prefer this one. The guy running palladium has run a profitable publishing house for well over two decades.  It also has zero to do with the discussion.

[Lantyssa]

From your link:

Not exactly a Second Edition, because most of the rules remain unchanged, ...

I like the possibilities the setting allows given a good GM and group, but Hoax' assessment really isn't far off the mark.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yes, I realize that the core rules have not changed, and that good for me. However they did address things like organization and what not, though it was never and issue for me personally. Having tried both systems, one enables the GM, in fact it unhinges the GM to make the calls (no, not everything has a chart, thank god), but DnD seems to appeal to the "It must be written" and rule monger crowed. So much more restrictive. IMO. I separate SDC and MDC in my games, always have i also do not mix the books to much, and I assemble things before hand that I want to use, I do not need a module to tell me what happens. I use a MDC in a situation, there is always a ROLE PLAYING avenue to get out or deal with it. Combat and rules do not make the better game. I don't need a chart to tell you that your offer to the villagers daughter is rejected. If all you want to do is read charts and kill things for point, awesome DnD or other systems may be for you. If you prefer story and role playing situations, I recommend rifts. I have done many a game where you rise from a penniless fucker to a high member of the collation, then beyond. I have also shot people with lazes of the response was warranted. Not every confrontation requires combat, but if you insist...

Story > Rules.

EDIT: Thats not the only book our of the hundreds for the system that was updated.

[Hoax]

From your link:

Not exactly a Second Edition, because most of the rules remain unchanged, ...

I like the possibilities the setting allows given a good GM and group, but Hoax' assessment really isn't far off the mark.

The attempting to be neutral wiki article says the same as well.  Don't worry though Bloodworth has no need for objective assessment after all he's a Rifts GM arguing with me that he understands what people who don't play Rifts think of it.  In typical Bloodworth fashion he seems incapable of remembering what he was responding to after he's typed 5 words of a reply so he just says stuff that is somewhat related, maybe, sort of, dim the lights and squint at his posts and it might make some kind of sense.

Nobody is saying Rifts sucks and DND games that play like a wankfest version of pnp Diablo are cool dude.  Thats not even what we're talking about.  Rifts is just a fringe neckbeard extra complex the way old school PnP'ers like it game system that nobody cares about and sure as fuck shouldn't be suing anybody because they are using the word Rift because it makes them look stupid.  That's what we're talking about.