Cracks starting to show?

[Selby]

Almost no one actually enjoys healing, in any MMO.

I like healing.  I don't like the asshats who feel that every time they died due to standing in something perfectly avoidable they need to rage at what a shitty healer I am.  So I stopped healing for PUGs.

[WindupAtheist]

The fact that there will not be regular modes of the 4.1 5-mans shows that they still have no clue.

THIS.

It doesn't really inspire much confidence in the "oh Blizzard realizes they're fucking up and will fix/nerf everything any minute" school of thought.

[caladein]

The problem with healing is that Blizzard likes to pull shit like a "dodge this" and "heal everyone" back to back, then segue into "spam your efficiency heals," which is hard on people.

We ask damage dealers to do the exact same thing and it's quite hard on them too sometimes.  Alternating between "Respond to (Possible) Emergency", "Go Full Out", and "Hang Loose" is nearly every fight on my Hunter or my Priest.

[Paelos]

Yep that was the mental agility part I was talking about. Many people have a hard time mentally grasping how to switch tasks several times on the fly.

[Sheepherder]

We ask damage dealers to do the exact same thing and it's quite hard on them too sometimes.

Except you don't single target DPS 25 bosses near simultaneously.

[Paelos]

Why Ghostcrawler stopped posting on official forums
These forums have always been about players talking to players. We don't want to foster the expectation that it's going to get a blue response if someone tries hard enough (lol I'm replying to a thread calling for a blue). While GC added a lot to these forums (and I say 'these forums' because he only posted in the North America forums) we think we can reach more players, particularly those in other regions, more directly through the blogs, or concerted Q&A's. Blogs also tend to be a better medium for getting the message out there loud and clear, but does have downsides that it removes the conversation that we know is appreciated quite a bit.

While forum posts do lend themselves to that conversational approach, they actually have a lot of downsides to them from our perspective of attempting to get clear and clean information to the players. They aren't very visible is really the first and maybe biggest problem. You can liken forum posts and the information given in them to some of the displeasure surrounding how hotfixes are communicated. I may reply to a thread 20 times and in my #13 reply I say something really important regarding class balance. Who is going to see that? How quickly will that knowledge actually permeate? Will the message be kept clear? Will my clarification in post #17 that explains what people are misunderstanding in #13 be seen by everyone that read #13? People tend not to read past the first blue post in a thread, or skip around and don't read them all, so if you have a correction/addendum to the first post, or just expound upon a thought, it's generally lost on the majority of readers. Blue trackers can help with this, but we're generally not having to explain that "post #13 wasn't the end of the thought and it's being taken out of context" to people who just go to blue trackers. Forum posts also tend to be fairly quickly written by one of us without much in the way of peer-review, and anything written off-the-cuff like a reply to a thread can tend to be more precarious than a more substantive outlet that has an official process of review and correction before its posted (like the blogs). Much to the dismay of many forum goers I'm sure, there's just an infinitely smaller chance we'll say something stupid or mess up in a fully published blog post.

As with anything we do, we never believe we're perfect. There's always room to improve. The blogs may not be the best outlet but we're continually working to improve upon the content we're delivering, and have some pretty exciting stuff planned. We're also working to make the comment system for the blogs a bit more like the forums so conversation can be held there more easily, as well. Of course you've no doubt see we're running a recurring global Ask the Devs Q&A. It's one way where we're hoping to fill that gap of direct developer interaction that the blogs probably just can't hit. We think the Q&A's are going to be extremely popular and fill a big part of what made GC's interactions on here so useful. And we’re going to continue collecting feedback and posting when appropriate, but we'll also be trying to come up with additional ways to facilitate the communication between the developers and players. (Source)

 

[Koyasha]

The fact that there will not be regular modes of the 4.1 5-mans shows that they still have no clue.

Yeah, I agree with this point.  I'm one of the biggest proponents of wanting harder things, but if they're putting in heroics and not normal versions, that's incredibly stupid.  Heroics should be hard, but for the scrubs who can't cut it, there have to be normals to keep them busy.  Putting in only heroics means everyone will want to do the heroics (with good reason, since they want to see the added content) and the people that aren't good enough will be unhappy because they can't do them without being berated by the people that are good enough, who will also be unhappy because they can't do them without putting up with these guys that constantly want to come, then screw up, make things impossible with their inability to perform, need to be carried when that's even possible, and so on.  So it makes nobody happy to have only heroics.

[Merusk]

Why Ghostcrawler stopped posting on official forums<snip>

 

While they have a point there's no reason you can't do both.  Or have a community manager summarizing the stuff the Devs have posted during the week.  Or any other number of approaches that don't involve "I'm not talking to you plebes."   SOE went down this road when shit started to go south as well.   Seems to be the MO of all game corps; "we don't like what we're hearing, so we're not going to talk to you anymore."

 

[Lantyssa]

Ghostcrawler got his feelings hurt by everyone letting him know what an idiot he is.

[Paelos]

I find it funny that their reaction to a large upswell of discontent towards their grand design of L2P has been for them to retreat from the public eye.

The problem right now is that even though I think they know they made a huge mistake with the healers and heroics, if they suddenly buffed healer mana regen, every single fight would have to be retuned in order to actually still be remotely interesting in their minds.

In my mind, now's the time to do it. Admit you were wrong, buff healers up, let people run roughshod over the first iteration of raid content (it's the first set, who gives a shit if they pwn it? It's gonna happen anyway eventually) and retool your next encounters around healers being buffed.

[Threash]

Their thinking is "if we just wait heroics are going to be facerolly soon enough without us doing anything", which is true but it assumes people are going to stick around for that to happen.

[Simond]

If Blizzard is going to turn into SOE ignore the forums, they should probably just get rid of them.

[Malakili]

Their thinking is "if we just wait heroics are going to be facerolly soon enough without us doing anything", which is true but it assumes people are going to stick around for that to happen.

I have to imagine they will, where are they going to go instead? Rift?  Maybe so, but I still think Rift is another one of those 1-3 month wonders, and maybe I'll eat that prediction, but I don't see taking people from WoW over the long haul.

[Lantyssa]

They don't have to go anywhere.  Not everyone that plays WoW is a gamer.  Of the ones that are gamers, a good number aren't MMO players.

[Paelos]

Their thinking is "if we just wait heroics are going to be facerolly soon enough without us doing anything", which is true but it assumes people are going to stick around for that to happen.

Yes that has always been their stated as goal, as you indicated. I think it's fair to assume, however, that when you give the people less, they are going to wait around for less time. Cataclysm gave us 5 levels, 2 races, 3 85 regulars, 9 heroics, and 14 raid bosses. As of yet, we've been playing the expansion 4 months since release and it will probably be April before we see a content patch.

WotLK gave us 10 levels, a new class, 4 max level regular dungeons, 12 heroic dungeons, and 17 raid bosses. The first major patch with Ulduar came in April as well. The only difference was that WotLK was released in November instead of December like Cataclysm.

What compounds the fact even further is that 4.1 isn't even really a major patch except in name only. There is no changeover of gear, no forward movement of content, two heroic dungeons, and they are increasing AE damage on a lot of classes. It's really just 4.0.9999999

[Malakili]

The amount of work that went into the complete overhaul of the "old world" shouldn't be dismissed lightly.  Granted, thats little consolation to people who already had a bunch of max level characters, or who simply don't like leveling that much.  I wonder if, in a sense, spending so much time and resources on that side of Cataclysm hasn't come back to bite them a little.

[Merusk]

They don't have to go anywhere.  Not everyone that plays WoW is a gamer.  Of the ones that are gamers, a good number aren't MMO players.

Even if you ARE a MMO gamer, nothing says you have to be subbed 100% of the time to any game.  Lord knows I've taken months-long breaks over the last 10 years.  You dick around, catch up on SP games and check out freebies until something new catches your eye or you decide to go back to your last one.

[Paelos]

The amount of work that went into the complete overhaul of the "old world" shouldn't be dismissed lightly.

Oh I don't dismiss it. It's a massive amount of work. I thought so way back when we weren't even sure if a redo of all the old world was real. I personally didn't because I thought it was entirely too much of an undertaking for almost no gain on their retention. As it turned out, I was way off and that was exactly what they had planned.

Still, I know for a fact that just having a fantastic leveling experience won't keep MMO players playing for as long as they have. WoW built it's empire on a foundation of questing, killing bosses, and collecting loot. You can't neglect 2 out of 3, and they did. They opened Pandora's box with Wrath, and they can't shut it now. All attempts to do so will be met with lost subs and angry forums.

[Ashamanchill]

The new ZA and ZG is their chance to step back. If they make those instances Wrath style facerollable, with fat fat purples dropping from each boss, I'll resub.

[Khaldun]

I'm kind of on the edge of unsubbing for the first time since the game went live. I don't really enjoy it any more, I don't think it raises any interesting issues as game or a social media form, and the social group I was playing with has shifted a lot and is less fun for me. Blizzard isn't responsible for all of that, and in some ways, I wonder if they're responsible for any of it. The basic infrastructure of this kind of MMO seems to me to have a lot of dead ends. It's to their credit that it took them this long to get back this badly into one of them with no clear way of getting out.

[Paelos]

I'm kind of on the edge of unsubbing for the first time since the game went live. I don't really enjoy it any more, I don't think it raises any interesting issues as game or a social media form, and the social group I was playing with has shifted a lot and is less fun for me. Blizzard isn't responsible for all of that, and in some ways, I wonder if they're responsible for any of it. The basic infrastructure of this kind of MMO seems to me to have a lot of dead ends. It's to their credit that it took them this long to get back this badly into one of them with no clear way of getting out.

Which way was the social group you were playing with shifting?

[Sjofn]

People didn't enjoy healing before either, it was just easier to put up with.


Almost no one actually enjoys healing, in any MMO. People enjoy the side-effects of being a healer; the guaranteed group spots or the feeling of being wanted and in demand.


The actual game play of being a healer? The number of people going "fuck yes, HEALING TIME" is very, very, very small. To the point where I am still amazed people make games WITH healers, instead of just making everyone self sufficient with everyone also having a small bit of "I'll save you dude" as well.

I won't lie, new paladin healing? It makes me go FUCK YEAH HEALING TIME. It's sort of weird. Old druid healing would sometimes make me feel that way if I was undergeared for it.  I am still butthurt they changed the way druids heal. :(

Tanking is the one I would accuse more of "almost no one really, truly loves tanking." I like being a punching bag and I like being needed and sometimes when you manage to tank something you had no right to survive it feels awesome, and I like facerolling with my paladin tank, but for the most part tanking is a thankless job and even though that doesn't excuse the dickbag PUG tanks, I can understand them. Healing can be thankless too, but you don't have the added baggage of people expecting you to be in charge.

(I'll answer shit from a day ago and you'll like it!)

[Ironwood]

Lots of people keep saying this.  I don't really see where my Druid has changed with healing.  Can someone explain ?

[eldaec]

Heal classes are the only thing I've ever been able to maintain interest in within an EQ clone, because they are the only classes that have enough decision making going on in a battle.

Some of the wider design decision in WoW (particularly having limited numbers of abilities per character) makes healing a bit less interesting in that specific game. But saying 'no one likes to heal' is absurd. What nobody likes is the existence of mandatory classes that you need in the group and which fucks everything up if you don't happen to have someone on who likes that particular role.

EQ2 Defiler/Mystic healing is probably my favourite dikumud archetype ever.

[caladein]

The new ZA and ZG is their chance to step back. If they make those instances Wrath style facerollable, with fat fat purples dropping from each boss, I'll resub.

The gear is halfway between Heroic Dungeon and Normal Raid gear, so aside from vanity items and itemization holes the drops aren't terribly relevant.

But it is purple, which apparently still matters to people beyond Enchanting for some reason.

[Ashamanchill]

As long as it's good enough to spring-board into the rest of the heroics, and maybe a raid.

[Simond]

Prediction: ZA/ZG are going to be 'harder' (slower, more tedious) than the rest of the heroics.

[Ashamanchill]

I have to admit, part of me wants to see that so I can kick the WoW addiction for good.

[Paelos]

I've seen a boss video on how ZG works, so I'll spoil it. However, from what I've seen I don't believe it's going to be easier at all.

[Setanta]

The amount of work that went into the complete overhaul of the "old world" shouldn't be dismissed lightly.

Oh I don't dismiss it. It's a massive amount of work. I thought so way back when we weren't even sure if a redo of all the old world was real. I personally didn't because I thought it was entirely too much of an undertaking for almost no gain on their retention. As it turned out, I was way off and that was exactly what they had planned.

Still, I know for a fact that just having a fantastic leveling experience won't keep MMO players playing for as long as they have. WoW built it's empire on a foundation of questing, killing bosses, and collecting loot. You can't neglect 2 out of 3, and they did. They opened Pandora's box with Wrath, and they can't shut it now. All attempts to do so will be met with lost subs and angry forums.

Massive amount of work yes - for something that people will either fly over (on a 60+) or bypass completely (dungeon finder). I love what they have done, don't get me wrong, but was it worth it rather than pump out more new content/world? IMO no because I doubt most people will see much of it, especially if they had multiple 80s.

[Koyasha]

The amount of work that went into the complete overhaul of the "old world" shouldn't be dismissed lightly.

Oh I don't dismiss it. It's a massive amount of work. I thought so way back when we weren't even sure if a redo of all the old world was real. I personally didn't because I thought it was entirely too much of an undertaking for almost no gain on their retention. As it turned out, I was way off and that was exactly what they had planned.

Still, I know for a fact that just having a fantastic leveling experience won't keep MMO players playing for as long as they have. WoW built it's empire on a foundation of questing, killing bosses, and collecting loot. You can't neglect 2 out of 3, and they did. They opened Pandora's box with Wrath, and they can't shut it now. All attempts to do so will be met with lost subs and angry forums.

Massive amount of work yes - for something that people will either fly over (on a 60+) or bypass completely (dungeon finder). I love what they have done, don't get me wrong, but was it worth it rather than pump out more new content/world? IMO no because I doubt most people will see much of it, especially if they had multiple 80s.

Yeah, leveling is also too fast even for those who want to see the content.  One of the characters I started after coming back to check things out a while back I intended to see a lot of the new zones on.  Didn't wind up happening because if I did even one dungeon, it meant I basically outleveled the latter 2/3 of the zone.  Even without dungeons, the latter half of the quests in any given zone were always, always green.  I kinda gave up on that character entirely cause I didn't want to grind green quests just to see them, but I didn't want to forge ahead and skip all the quests either.

[El Gallo]

Massive amount of work yes - for something that people will either fly over (on a 60+) or bypass completely (dungeon finder). I love what they have done, don't get me wrong, but was it worth it rather than pump out more new content/world? IMO no because I doubt most people will see much of it, especially if they had multiple 80s.

It was necessary if they want to keep getting new subs.  There are finally MMOs out that are better than WoW was 6 years ago.  They needed to upgrade the newbie experience in a big way to get anybody to keep playing it.

[sinij]

Ghostcrawler got his feelings hurt by everyone letting him know what an idiot he is.

Ghostcrawler is a devoted disciple of Abashi-style customer serviceabuse.

[Sjofn]

Lots of people keep saying this.  I don't really see where my Druid has changed with healing.  Can someone explain?

Whoops, I stopped reading this thread. The way they changed druids is it's not as HoT-based feeling. In WotLK I could run in a happy little circle and do most of my healing, because it was all rejuv, wild growth, and some lifebloom thrown in (unless shit got crazy, then I'd use my other shit). Now I have to stand still and cast nourish or whatever all the time. I haven't actually done it much because if I wanted to stand still and cast, so maybe it starts to get more like the old way with better gear, but I like the paladin mechanics better if I'm going to do the traditional "stand still and cast heals" thing.

[Ironwood]

Um, that's the thing.  That's what people say;  I'm still pretty much healing with HoTs.  Even in Heroics, which seems fine.  Sure, my useage of casting ones has risen, but not by the insane levels people are complaining about.

Perhaps raiding is different or perhaps I'm just doing it wrong and being really lucky.


Edited to add :  Not that it matters, since I quit.  On that note, I've still got game time outstanding, but logging in has been depressing five second jaunts.  Hardly any of the guild are on and the stats say 'last logged on : Pretty much 10 days after this shitty fucking expansion launched'.  Oh well.