Cracks starting to show?

[Nebu]

I figure in a couple of years WoW may bleed enough subs that they'll let me rent henchmen.  Then I'll finally be able to see all of the 5-man content in the game.  I've played several toons to cap since release and have only been in 2 instance dungeons after level 60. 

[Rendakor]

At 85 you can go back and solo all the BC regular 5mans. LK too probably, depending on your class.

[Nebu]

At 85 you can go back and solo all the BC regular 5mans. LK too probably, depending on your class.

That's very true, but they are so much more interesting when the mobs aren't all gray. 

[Rendakor]

At 85 you can go back and solo all the BC regular 5mans. LK too probably, depending on your class.

That's very true, but they are so much more interesting when the mobs aren't all gray you're not being carried by NPCs.

[caladein]

I hate to pull the incompetence card on a job that is hard, but it should have been clear that as they trended the game toward 'more accessible' more folks subscribed and they made more money.  If you want to add harder elements into the game, make them optional elements with bling-rewards so you don't piss off your newly-found core.  Seems pretty straight-forward.

I don't think there's any evidence that WoW's numbers in the West have done anything dramatic for a long time (is there?), but that's not going to stop anyone from arguing that a less (or more!) hardcore WoW leads to more subscribers.

[Nebu]

That's very true, but they are so much more interesting when the mobs aren't all gray you're not being carried by NPCs.

How is that different from what they have now... people being carried by other players?  I had some nice folks drag me through a heroic and I did almost nothing.  I imagine this is the case for many many people.

At least with NPCs, I'd be the one doing the primary decision making 

[Koyasha]

You could just level a new character through LFD.  It actually works pretty well and you get to see all the dungeons.  However, they have all been made ridiculously easy even at the 'intended' level, so no matter what you're never really going to see them being reasonably difficult.

And if you're worried about horrible LFD groups, just be a protection paladin.  With no heirlooms or twinked gear, a prot pally can self-heal through most dungeons, including bosses.

[Ashamanchill]

I hate to pull the incompetence card on a job that is hard, but it should have been clear that as they trended the game toward 'more accessible' more folks subscribed and they made more money.  If you want to add harder elements into the game, make them optional elements with bling-rewards so you don't piss off your newly-found core.  Seems pretty straight-forward.

I don't think there's any evidence that WoW's numbers in the West have done anything dramatic for a long time (is there?), but that's not going to stop anyone from arguing that a less (or more!) hardcore WoW leads to more subscribers.

To clarify, I don't think that WoW is exactly bleeding subs right, now, but the phase of it's life where it was simply on fire has been put to an end by Cataclysm. Give it a few more months though, and we'll see where it's at. Who knows? I might be completely wrong about the whole thing.

Edit: Essentially all alot of fans were looking for (yes bad and lazy ones too) was WotLK 2, but they got this instead.

[Sheepherder]

In the case of leveling content they got WotLK 2 in spades.  Endgame?  Not so much.

[K9]

A lot of the comparisons between WoTLK and Cata are being seen through rose-tinted shades too I feel.

WoTLK made people too powerful, and nerfing the players (even in a temporary way) will always leave a bad taste.

[Xanthippe]

I have never understood players who say that they want things to be made more difficult - all a player has to do is remove gear, and it's more difficult.

Once people get the gear they want from a punishing dungeon, they're done running that dungeon.  So the queues get longer as the tanks and healers stop queuing since they don't have a queue to begin with and can gear up faster. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

For the majority of vanilla players, BC was a huge upgrade in power.
For the majority of BC players, WOTLK was a huge upgrade in power.
For the majority of WOTLK players, cataclysm was a reduction.


This is not because it was a huge nerf so much as that more players than ever in wotlk were in naxx/ulduar/icc and raiding, used to big numbers and wtf damage.  Vanilla and bc players were by and large not doing those raids so each new expansion was only candy for them.

[kildorn]

Wrath isn't a reduction as much as not moving ahead much. The only character I have that is "weaker" is my priest, and that's because healing in wrath's endgame was absolutely stupid.

[Ashamanchill]

WoTLK made people too powerful, and nerfing the players (even in a temporary way) will always leave a bad taste.

That's relative to your station as a raider. To me, Wrath made people just the right amount of powerful: as in able to clear mindless tasks (heroics) mindlessly, obsolete raids (naxx, maybe a bit of ulduar) easily, and actually progress in current content (which the developers stated they wanted people to see). The more the expansion progressed, the more I felt that 'hells yeah, this is where it should be'.

I'll state it again: heroics are NOT content. They are tasks. In Wrath, I could go and do one in a lunch hour, or three or so in an evening and still have time for something else. If I wanted to raid, that's where putting effort came in. Incidentally, none of the guilds I was in ever cleared the current raid, cause all Blizzard had to do was install a mechanically hard boss in the way, and that was that. As the bosses progressed in difficulty, less and less people made it.

And that was fine. Casuals and bads got a bone thrown to them, and the rest was for those with the talent/time/composition.

[Koyasha]

Heroics shouldn't be mindless tasks.  Normals should be the mindless tasks.  If heroics are challenging, that's kinda the point.  If heroics are the new normal, then what's the point of having a difference in the first place?  What next then, put in a third tier of difficulty 'Really Extremely Heroic' to be the not-mindless one?

[Ashamanchill]

See thats just semantics. But actually playing the game, since heroics are what there is to do, and the vehicle to offer means to raid, yeah, they are tasks. If they bumped up 'normals', i.e. with the full amount of them, and gave suitable rewards that were worth doing, then fine, they could have that distiction. But see, they already did. They had normal heroics, for gear and badges (tasks), and achievements in the heroics. Find heroics too easy? fine: kill What his face with his three watchers up. Do occulus without an amber drake etc.

[Sheepherder]

Heroics shouldn't be mindless tasks.  Normals should be the mindless tasks.  If heroics are challenging, that's kinda the point.  If heroics are the new normal, then what's the point of having a difference in the first place?  What next then, put in a third tier of difficulty 'Really Extremely Heroic' to be the not-mindless one?

Yes.  Why would that be a bad thing?  There's no good reason to not have a level 80 TotT, a level 85 TotT, and a hardmode 85 TotT.

[Koyasha]

Well that's a fair point for dungeons that don't have an 85 normal mode, but for the ones that have both an 85 version and an 85 heroic version, an added level of difficulty on top of that would be redundant.

As for 'do the achievements' if you want a bigger challenge, well...that only really applies once, doesn't it?  And you don't even really get much of a reward for doing them.

But that's the thing - give a bigger prize, then people expect to get it without the added effort.  That's what heroics are supposed to be, bigger effort, bigger rewards, but now everyone expects to be able to do them while half asleep.  Because Blizzard made the mistake of making them too easy during Lich King, letting people forget that heroics are meant to be kinda challenging.

It's not like they're some ridiculous gear checks or anything.  People with half a brain and who put a bit of attention can do them without much of a problem, and yet there's still so much complaining about them.  All they are is a little challenging, really.

[Ashamanchill]

Having an 85, and an 85 heroic dungeon is already half redundant by the time a person starts raiding, they only aid in gear to better raid with. But if they wanted to make it so that normal dungeons gave out gear that was geared towards normal raids, and heroics the same, then I would be cool with that, evwn though we all know that system wouldn't work.

Doing the achievement may only work once, but honestly how many times do you think 'sap this, dispel that, run out of this' in the same dungeons is going to keep you hooked 'as a challenge'? My guess is max one tier, then it becomes just as mindless as a Wrath dungeon.

No one is expecting to waltz into Deathwings lair and AOE him to death. All I'd like is a glimpse of the content. Raider who do that shit on heroic can have ten tiers ahead of me (for pve purposes) for all I care, as long as I get a glimpse of that carrot.

As for heroics being not that hard. Yeah fine, but they have made it so that EVERYONE has to be on the ball, or it's a wipe. That means relying on the competance of those in the LFD system. (Or get a guild, but then why even have a LFD system?)

[Rendakor]

You can only justify Heroics being challenging if they're a separate, equal progression. If you could get the same gear from heroics and raids, then heroics could justifiably be as difficult as raids. However, heroics exist for the sole purpose of allowing people to gear up for raids. They aren't there for people to "see the content", that's what the normals are for. Heroics are just bullshit we have to grind through over and over again to get our DPS/Healing/Survivability to an appropriate level before we can start raiding.

Every pull is a fucking headache as a tank (or group leader) due to the need for CC. Even doing a random heroic with a decent premade group can be shitty if you get the wrong instance for your CC type (VP with no shaman/hunter, for example). And the trash really is the core of my complaint; there are a few tough bosses, but they're bosses. Bosses are supposed to be tough, sure. We shouldn't all be retards and stand in fire, ignoring enemy spell casts, and just faceroll dps to victory. But neither should we have to work more on the 10+ trash pulls between each fucking boss than the bosses themselves. This point is exacerbated by the fact that there is none of this CC OR DIE bullshit in raid trash. It's not a training mode to teach retards how to use the buttons they lost in WotLK, it's just punishing bullshit for the retards who loved being a mage in BC. Spoiler: some people play DPS warriors, DKs, or pallies. Some days, that's all the dps you have on in guild. What are you supposed to do, bench a guildie for a heroic because he isn't the right fucking class? 

[caladein]

You actually use both kinds of CC quite a bit with Bastion of Twilight trash.

As a training exercise CC is all about looking at your available tools, formulating a plan around them, and then executing that plan.  If you fail any of those three parts you can then either play your ass off or die.  It's actually quite a lot like the sandlot version of a raid in that regard.

Edit: For example, that all Plate DPS group looks a lot worse than it is.  You still have a solid long-term CC in Repentance, one or two good short-term CCs in (glyphed) Intimidating Shout and Hungering Cold, an excellent kiter in the Death Knight, and tons of interrupts and durability.  That's even before you get to whatever the tank or healer might bring to the table.

[Maledict]

You're are flat out wrong if you don't think CC is used on raid trash. It is, extensively, throughout BoT. Raid trash is also much harder than it was in Wrath outside Ulduar. BWD has no CC and only tiny trash packs - but they are tricky and have happily wiped us a few times.

I do have to wonder though at the overexageration being used by people here. The levels of hyperbole people are using to describe the difficulty is simply ridiculous. Yes, heroics are harder than in Wrath. They are still remarkably easier than Vanilla or TBC. Heroics are also easier than raiding - they are a good stepping stone for players. They just aren't THAT hard. I'm sorry you can't do them in 15 minutes whilst randomly pressing keys, but have people thought that maybe the common factor in all their heroics is them? I've done PuGs with my Mage, and yes, some were utterly dreadful. But by exposing the fights clearly and communicating with people I've yet to actually not finish an instance, and it's never taken 3 hours either. Now maybe my battlegroup is some of freakish uber playerheaven, but I doubt it. The majority of these instances are not *that* tricky - and as you gear up they rapidly become easy runs. You can clear most in 30 minutes without CC once you are fully 346 / rep & crafted 359 geared.

Also, wrath was not the period when WoW was 'on fire'. Subscribers in the west remained flat throught all of Wrath - growth came from new markets and the far east. Wrath was 'on fire' and saw its largest subscriber gains during vanilla and TBC - all of which was a damn sight harder than current content. As I've pointed out, for large segments of the community (I'm talking casual raider here, not hardcore), Wrath saw a greater drop in the number of players than any other point in the game. Over the last 18 months of Wrath, ever since ToC was released, more people I know have quit the game than the previous 4 years combined. My servers guilds were *decimated* by the shifty content, the complete lack of challenge and the incredible dull monotony of grinding a stupidly easy heroic a day. Blizzard don't make major changes without a reason - it could just be possible that making everything so mindlessly easier saw them lose more subs than they gained.
(on the reverse - since cata launched I have seen people come back who stopped playing months ago. In terms of the players I know, this expansion has been a huge success marred only by shifty tradeskills and the usual pvp debacle).    

[Ironwood]

Yes and No.  I'd agree that on the whole heroics are challenging and can be quite fun.  Some of them are just utter bullshit, however, the spoils the experience as a whole.  Also, some of them really don't take group combination into account, which is just DEATH for design and a stupid, stupid mistake.

A mistake that I'd say they're recognising and correcting right now.

What weirds me out a little is how you manage to succeed sometimes despite all evidence suggesting you shouldn't.  Watery chap at the end of ToT is trivial with a drain or Victory Rush and last night the Deadmines Ogre was also downed using nothing but the victory rush mechanic, despite the healer hitting the deck at the start of the add phase...

Odd.

[Maledict]

Yeah, I definitely agree with the adjustments they are making or have hotfixes in. Stone Core in particular was ou of wack compared to other instances in terms of trash and bosses, and needed to brought down to be inline. Similarily Vortex Pinnacle needed increasing a bit because the bosses were a joke.

You are right in that you can often kill a boss when you should wipe due to their mechanics. As bosses have a lot more spells to cast and abilities to use, you can have long periods of time when the tank is dead but the boss casts a spell, then chases a dps across the room, then stops to cast another spell etc etc. It's quite fun when that happens!

[amiable]

If you design a game rewards based around a random lfg mechanic, then it is incumbent upon you to make certain that a random group has a reasonable chance of success.

I'm not going to argue that random heroics are impossible on PUGs, they certainly aren't , I have completed most of them in PUG's actually.  But in all of these cases it has been 2-3 hour grinds with group members dropping, multiple wipes and angry recriminations.  It doesn't help that justified or not, all blame for wipes falls on the head of the healers, who took the brunt of the gimping in this expansion.  At the end of the day I have asked myself "Is this in any way fun"?   For me the answer is no.  I will most likely stick around because my wife is having a grand time playing her mage and I have a few casual RL friends who are leveling up and I want to play a bit with them.  But beyond that I plan to bolt as soon as I can.

The only other healer in my guild, a druid feels the same way (at least about healing, he is having a grand time going feral in PvP).  The healing forums on the WoW website are a hilarious parody of abused children, as different classes argue that mommy loves other classes best.  They balanced the entire expansion on making one role necessary but borderline unplayable.  

Honestly, if you are a good DPS class this expansion, I'm sure everything is wonderful, but I would argue that the hour plus queues on random dungeons suggest otherwise.  

[Merusk]

Edit: For example, that all Plate DPS group looks a lot worse than it is.  You still have a solid long-term CC in Repentance, one or two good short-term CCs in (glyphed) Intimidating Shout and Hungering Cold, an excellent kiter in the Death Knight, and tons of interrupts and durability.  That's even before you get to whatever the tank or healer might bring to the table.

You're assuming the DK is Frost there.

However, you're correct in that all-plate isn't a dire situation.  I ran a heroic HOO in an all plate group.   DK tank, Pally Heal and DK, War, Pally DPS.  It was quite entertaining as we just ran 2 of us as tanks on tough packs and used AOE/ Cleaves to kill everything.

[ghost]

Do people even do regular 5 mans anymore? 

[kildorn]

Do people even do regular 5 mans anymore? 

Lots of people do. They level slower than other people.

[Xanthippe]

Do people even do regular 5 mans anymore? 

That's the only kind of random I sign up for anymore.  Once a week maybe.  My hunter is 341ilvl now - heroic pugs just stink.  The rule seems to be a 45min queue, multiple drops, and a fail after 2 hours.

Those who like the current system are not running heroic pugs daily, save for the occasional masochist.

Far more enjoyable is either leveling my little worgen rogue (although if that snuffling doesn't get patched out soon, she's becoming a nightelf) or playing my 83 lock in bgs.

[Malakili]

Do people even do regular 5 mans anymore? 

  My hunter is 341ilvl now

Is this a common way to refer to yourself now?  Granted, I haven't been in the loop in a long time, but when I played it was like "I'm Tier X geared" or whatever.

[Nebu]

Is this a common way to refer to yourself now? 

Ask me why I quit playing WoW.  Noone cares about how much attention you pay, how well you play, or chatting in these games anymore.  They just want to know how much time it will take before they get their loot.  In WoW, if you're not in a guild or regular group, you are your gear. 

[Xanthippe]

My two other complaints about Cata are the half-assed hunter overhaul (gear, for example, was not re-done, such that hunters leveling up still have gear with mana on it) that still isn't finished but forchristsake Blizz how many times do I have to relearn how to play my class I've played for 6 years because devs get a bee in their bonnet to switch things up, and the almost complete lack of attention to tradeskills.

Tradeskills are poorly designed. Along with the changes to the world, tradeskills need an overhaul.  Try finding wildvine, for example, now - it's been taken off most of the mobs, good luck find the couple who drop it.  Spider's silk was hardly dropping at all until it got patched in.  Elemental fire is in overabundance, as is ele earth, as are mineral nodes and herb nodes - no problems finding those at all.

The rewards from running pug dungeons (the things in the sack) are generally far better than anything found either in the dungeons or created (even the things with the ridiculous mats).

[Xanthippe]

Do people even do regular 5 mans anymore? 

  My hunter is 341ilvl now

Is this a common way to refer to yourself now?  Granted, I haven't been in the loop in a long time, but when I played it was like "I'm Tier X geared" or whatever.

This is the way that the LFD tool determines whether one is "ready" to sign up for a pug heroic.  I tossed that in to say that I am not running the heroic in minimum ilvl gear but well enough over it that my gear isn't a problem.  (My dps isn't a problem, either, nor is my cc - the problems are often due to wrong class composition to run the heroic, i.e., not enough people with interrupts).

I've never known what tier I am, because I don't raid.  I can open my character tab and see what my ilvl is, though.

[Paelos]

Is this a common way to refer to yourself now?  

Ask me why I quit playing WoW.  Noone cares about how much attention you pay, how well you play, or chatting in these games anymore.  They just want to know how much time it will take before they get their loot.  In WoW, if you're not in a guild or regular group, you are your gear.  

What other method would you use? Until they invent a ranking that shows how likely you are to get out of fire on the ground, gear's pretty much all we got.

[Xanthippe]

I don't have a problem using ilvl, but it can be gamed so easily - and therefore it is.  Apparently, just possessing items in one's bag affects one's ilvl.