The Hub of All Blame: A Postmortem

[Venkman]

So, the project ran off the rails because god damn Microsoft switched management teams?

I don't know Microsoft at all, but from the "large company" angle, this is entirely believable. And you only need to look at Microsoft's MMO history before that to realize why the team Sigil was originally working with was so apparently keen to give him the extra time and money he needed.

In a sense, the old relationship sounded like a bunch of people who wanted a good MMO, and had made a bunch of high promises to management about all these whizbang nifty things when they had all the time in the world to work on it. But what isn't apparent, and probably could never be confirmed, is why the first team was replaced. My opinion is that their higher ups realized they weren't a strong enough force to deliver to Microsoft want Microsoft needed. Remember back in the day when VG was going to be an Xbox 360 launch title? Cost and schedule overruns to the degree seen by VG are often based on designers never stopping the design process.

More and more I believe the assertion from the second interview that VG was designed in 18 months. That's about when Microsoft pulled out, which means a serious company that knew how MMOs were built got in to start mandating, like, development actually get got.

As to him not coming to F13, I can completely understand that. I think we cover more diverse playstyles than FoH, for one, and therefore have less percentage of folks interested in uber time sink stand-around-and-wait pickup raids.

[Nyght]

I haven't taken the time to read all your replies, so perhaps this has been mentioned.

Brad seems still to be completely delusional.

Premise #1: We are going to build a WoW beater by spending 30 to 50 mil on a hardcore fantasy MMORPG.

Premise #2: We have a completely wide open funding ticket. We will be the energizer Bunny of MMO development and MS will just keep the money coming and coming and coming.

Heap on tons of obvious mismanagement and it is little wonder MS ran screaming in the night.

Brad... You Did This. Good luck in your next industry.

[Slayerik]

I find myself skimming over all the old f13 posters and looking for ones by people with less than 10 posts here....keep em coming new guys/lurkers ;)

[schild]

I find myself skimming over all the old f13 posters and looking for ones by people with less than 10 posts here....keep em coming new guys/lurkers ;)

If you even try to convince them that UO is a good game, I will sock you right in the cock.

Don't drink this guys Kool-Aid, new kids.

[Trippy]

I wonder how much money/effort SOE will actually invest in Vanguard.  I have to imagine they're simply going to clean it up a bit, patch in just enough content to pass it off as a finished game, and then have it live on as a zombie ala Matrix Online and Star Wars Galaxies.
The thing is, why?  Even as mere zombified husks, MxO and SWG at least let SOE put the names "Matrix" and "Star Wars" out there when they're selling Station Passes, and give people burned out on EQ2 something different to do for a little while.  Vanguard has neither of those benefits.

Volume and low incremental cost? Think about it - SOE maybe a whipping boy around here but they have a tonne of experience in MMOG's and they've demonstrated some capability to revive sagging titles (no not SWG - don't go there - but EQII is greatly improved).

They may have improved EQ II but as best as I can tell they didn't increase subscribers at all and it most likely has gone down since it's peak in early 2005. So no, I don't think SOE has shown it has the ability to revive sagging titles.

[DraconianOne]

Don't drink this guys Kool-Aid, new kids.

But mommy said it would be okay!


Another new kid here.  Have absolutely no interest in Vanguard but this is like watching a car wreck happen in front of you - can't help but slow down and watch.  Aside from anything, I still remember fondly how Brad was quite, um, negative about Age of Conan while singularly demonstrating how little he understood of the game and Funcom's plans for it. (Source)

Is it [AOC] something that is made to challenge WoW in 2007 like Vanguard?... Doesn't seem to be. Doesn't have to be either to be a great game. But it does have to be to be compared with games like Vanguard, WoW, EQ 2, and others as if they were the same genre of game.

Good work, Schild.

[Nyght]

They may have improved EQ II but as best as I can tell they didn't increase subscribers at all and it most likely has gone down since it's peak in early 2005. So no, I don't think SOE has shown it has the ability to revive sagging titles.

I don't think they necessarily have to revive it to make money. It depends entirely what they paid for it.

My suspicion is it was so cheap, Smed charged it to his Visa after the agreement signing lunch.

 

[Trippy]

They may have improved EQ II but as best as I can tell they didn't increase subscribers at all and it most likely has gone down since it's peak in early 2005. So no, I don't think SOE has shown it has the ability to revive sagging titles.

I don't think they necessarily have to revive it to make money. It depends entirely what they paid for it.

Oh I agree that SOE has a plan for making money on Vanguard. In fact that is their business model now. Take crappy and/or mediocre MMOs and do just enough work to stem the tide of cancellations and let the games lurch around as the walking dead for as long as they can.

[Riggswolfe]

I think he may have meant to refer to B.A.D.D. (Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons), an organization formed by Patricia Pulling in 1983 as a misguided attempt to blame her son's suicide on something other than the fact that he was a persecuted closet homosexual with a poor home life.

/derail

Everytime that organization and that bitch's name comes up I see red. She made my teenage years harder than they had to be because of her delusions.

/rerail

[Vinadil]

I always love these rather vague explanations of 'potential'. You almost sound like Mcquaid there..exactly what potential do you see in the PvP aspect that you could not apply to any other game and say 'Oh this has potential!' Sure, every game with PvP has potential to truly do something special, but I havent see anyone implement anything worth drooling over yet- the closest thing would be the city/kingdom/zone takeover possibilities of warhammer, or perhaps the Seige Tower/fortress system of AoC in their PvP zones- but Im a bit skeptical even of these systems. Vanguard would never come close to implementing something liek that, so Id love to see what kind of 'potential' you are referring to.

What they will do and what they can do are often different things.  I have really stopped talking about the "potential" of games that are not yet released... unless I am just day-dreaming with some friends about the "perfect game" or something.  I have watched too many projects with wonderful ideas stop production.  The fact that VG even released puts it in a different sphere from many projects.

But, to get more specific in some of the things they did that I have not seen since Shadowbane (and maybe there is a reason for that since both worlds share so many of the same problems):

Player-built, customizable structures.  Perhaps SWG has this, I did not play long enough to know, but there are not many games that have non-instances, player-built structures.  Not only that, but their systems allows for incremental building AND for destruction.  Right now the "destruction" seems to be tied to not paying for upkeep.  But, if there is a code that says (IF [upkeep not paid] THEN [house dies]) it seems that you could make it say (IF [siege engine = hit] THEN [house dies]).  I guess I look at the system and it is not difficult to see HUGE areas of the VERY empty world map turned into "guild cities" that have a "wall plot" built around them and then several plots inside that can be used for different things.  Add in a rather simple (hah yea I know it is only simple to think up not code) siege system where you do incremental damage to structures instead of incremental builds... and you have a newer type of SB.

There may not be a HUGE crowd of people looking for a world in which they can make their own mark and compete against other players who are doing the same... but VG is the first game I have seen in a long time that has the potential to allow it.  Perhaps AoC will... I won't believe it until they release it, same with WAR (though their track record is a bit more reassuring... but they don't have these features even planned), same with Darkfall, etc.

I am basically looking for an EVE in the fantasy realm... and I have yet to see anything that comes close.  I think VG could have been on that path, but it really seems that all of this potential was an accidental side effect, not an actual part of the plan.

[Hutch]

So, the project ran off the rails because god damn Microsoft switched management teams?

I don't know Microsoft at all, but from the "large company" angle, this is entirely believable. And you only need to look at Microsoft's MMO history before that to realize why the team Sigil was originally working with was so apparently keen to give him the extra time and money he needed.

In a sense, the old relationship sounded like a bunch of people who wanted a good MMO, and had made a bunch of high promises to management about all these whizbang nifty things when they had all the time in the world to work on it. But what isn't apparent, and probably could never be confirmed, is why the first team was replaced. My opinion is that their higher ups realized they weren't a strong enough force to deliver to Microsoft want Microsoft needed. Remember back in the day when VG was going to be an Xbox 360 launch title? Cost and schedule overruns to the degree seen by VG are often based on designers never stopping the design process.

More and more I believe the assertion from the second interview that VG was designed in 18 months. That's about when Microsoft pulled out, which means a serious company that knew how MMOs were built got in to start mandating, like, development actually get got.

As to him not coming to F13, I can completely understand that. I think we cover more diverse playstyles than FoH, for one, and therefore have less percentage of folks interested in uber time sink stand-around-and-wait pickup raids.

Again, I call shenanigans. I reiterate: If Vanguard was on track to become a feature-complete, not-bug-riddled, not-frequently-crashing, well-tested AAA title with a smooth launch, then it would have survived the "regime change" at Microsoft, and it would have still been all of those things. At worst, the "regime change" would have delayed the launch.

Maybe you guys have already noticed this, but "Aradune Mithara" has now posted exactly two times on F13, both times in this thread, and both times to inject a few more words into his blame-Microsoft narrative. The man never shifts out of spin mode. I think spin was the primary motive for him to grant this interview in the first place. Hopefully, the next suckers investors will recognize that Brad blaming Microsoft doesn't bode well for how they'll be treated.

[Endie]

I think he may have meant to refer to B.A.D.D. (Bothered About Dungeons & Dragons), an organization formed by Patricia Pulling in 1983 as a misguided attempt to blame her son's suicide on something other than the fact that he was a persecuted closet homosexual with a poor home life.

/derail

Everytime that organization and that bitch's name comes up I see red. She made my teenage years harder than they had to be because of her delusions.

/rerail

Too right.  I well remember, at 13 or so, my Dad rather formally asking me about the Deities and Demigods book (original, with Cthulhu and Elric deities!) and whether I was really Dabbling In That Which Ought Not To Be Dabblied In, thanks to this daft BADD leaflet he's been handed by a parent at the school.

Taught me to become good at citing Tolkien, Lewis, G.M.Fraser et al.  Fortunately, my father the headmaster and preacher just said something like "No problem, I thought it was nonsense anyway..." and left it at that.

[Vinadil]

Kind of strange how this applies to the current situation in a way...

I came from the same type of household that would Demonize D&D for its great evil, and then hand me Lord of the Rings as a suggested reading material.  I finally approached the parentals and asked what was different about LoTR magic and D&D magic...

But the point that applies is that often our Perception outweighs Reality.  When it happens in a game you get ideas like, "Hey, let's design this dungeon experience that will occupy people for 4-5 levels (read 40-50 hours) and let them get this cool gear and face these interesting gaming experiences."  Of course that really means doing the SAME experiences over and over in what becomes somewhat mindless repetition... you know sort of like Milestone reporting and paperwork.  How can a person who does not enjoy meetings, paperwork, and repetitive, non-creative tasks design a game that creates those VERY features for the players and calls them "fun"... the same way people could say D&D was evil but Tolkein was blessed I guess.

[Slayerik]

I find myself skimming over all the old f13 posters and looking for ones by people with less than 10 posts here....keep em coming new guys/lurkers ;)

If you even try to convince them that UO is a good game, I will sock you right in the cock.

Don't drink this guys Kool-Aid, new kids.

I would never say that UO IS a good game, though I'll say it was ;) "Your avoiding cock-sock skill has went up by .1 - It is now 0.2"

Like I said before, I'm done and over the whole UO thing. My Kool-aid is better than your Kool-aid anyways.

[Mandrel]

I always love these rather vague explanations of 'potential'. You almost sound like Mcquaid there..exactly what potential do you see in the PvP aspect that you could not apply to any other game and say 'Oh this has potential!' Sure, every game with PvP has potential to truly do something special, but I havent see anyone implement anything worth drooling over yet- the closest thing would be the city/kingdom/zone takeover possibilities of warhammer, or perhaps the Seige Tower/fortress system of AoC in their PvP zones- but Im a bit skeptical even of these systems. Vanguard would never come close to implementing something liek that, so Id love to see what kind of 'potential' you are referring to.

What they will do and what they can do are often different things.  I have really stopped talking about the "potential" of games that are not yet released... unless I am just day-dreaming with some friends about the "perfect game" or something.  I have watched too many projects with wonderful ideas stop production.  The fact that VG even released puts it in a different sphere from many projects.

But, to get more specific in some of the things they did that I have not seen since Shadowbane (and maybe there is a reason for that since both worlds share so many of the same problems):

Player-built, customizable structures.  Perhaps SWG has this, I did not play long enough to know, but there are not many games that have non-instances, player-built structures.  Not only that, but their systems allows for incremental building AND for destruction.  Right now the "destruction" seems to be tied to not paying for upkeep.  But, if there is a code that says (IF [upkeep not paid] THEN [house dies]) it seems that you could make it say (IF [siege engine = hit] THEN [house dies]).  I guess I look at the system and it is not difficult to see HUGE areas of the VERY empty world map turned into "guild cities" that have a "wall plot" built around them and then several plots inside that can be used for different things.  Add in a rather simple (hah yea I know it is only simple to think up not code) siege system where you do incremental damage to structures instead of incremental builds... and you have a newer type of SB.

There may not be a HUGE crowd of people looking for a world in which they can make their own mark and compete against other players who are doing the same... but VG is the first game I have seen in a long time that has the potential to allow it.  Perhaps AoC will... I won't believe it until they release it, same with WAR (though their track record is a bit more reassuring... but they don't have these features even planned), same with Darkfall, etc.

I am basically looking for an EVE in the fantasy realm... and I have yet to see anything that comes close.  I think VG could have been on that path, but it really seems that all of this potential was an accidental side effect, not an actual part of the plan.

Vanguard wasn't built with PvP in mind AT ALL.  It was tacked on at the end of Beta without (suprise!) much testing.  There's no way in hell they were ever going to work on destructable buildings or any kind of conquest features.  Of all the things that Brad spouted, I don't recall him going quite that far.  He's a hard-core grindy PvE designer.

[Vinadil]

Was it planned? No.  Was it spouted?  Yep.

Then a re-launch towards the end of the year plus the first expansion (which is looking like first quarter 200, one that would add RTS style city building, ship to ship combat, jousting, and a second ‘half' of the Kojanese Archipelago that makes ship travel meaningful - and by meaningful I mean not tedious, rewarding exploration, with lots of new areas (both in the existing world and in the extension of the archipelago).  And I'm talking about some re-use of existing art, combined with new art that fits into the existing continents, and then finally some all out new stuff - different styles of terrain (islands) and ocean to look at while making your journey to found a new player city while constantly being attacked by exotic sea creatures, leviathans, and other traditional members of fantasy and crypto-zoology.  Not to mention pirates with canons, or other players and their ships on the PvP servers.

That is a quote taken from http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=8569 long-rambling post.

[Mandrel]

Was it planned? No.  Was it spouted?  Yep.

Then a re-launch towards the end of the year plus the first expansion (which is looking like first quarter 200, one that would add RTS style city building, ship to ship combat, jousting, and a second ‘half' of the Kojanese Archipelago that makes ship travel meaningful - and by meaningful I mean not tedious, rewarding exploration, with lots of new areas (both in the existing world and in the extension of the archipelago).  And I'm talking about some re-use of existing art, combined with new art that fits into the existing continents, and then finally some all out new stuff - different styles of terrain (islands) and ocean to look at while making your journey to found a new player city while constantly being attacked by exotic sea creatures, leviathans, and other traditional members of fantasy and crypto-zoology.  Not to mention pirates with canons, or other players and their ships on the PvP servers.

That is a quote taken from http://forums.station.sony.com/vg/posts/list.m?topic_id=8569 long-rambling post.

And Smed has subsequently said none of that is going to happen.  It was more of Brad being Brad, and wanting to keep things positive.  Pie in the sky dreamingand grasping at straws.  More land?  A majority of the land that is there now is empty.  WAR is offering some of those things, so I think Brad wanted to appeal to those who are looking forward to that game.  A relaunch of that scale would take a heck of a long time, especially with the work involved in fixing what is still broken today.

I will give Brad credit for coming up with some cool things, and the way he presents them, but his execution has been less than stellar.

[Yegolev]

I wonder how much money/effort SOE will actually invest in Vanguard.
...
The thing is, why?

Same reason Mark Jacobs wants to spit-shine UO, I would assume.  You basically have a launched and partly-functional MOG, the cost to bring it up to some level of quality can't be as huge as making one from scratch.

[Abelian75]

Kind of strange how this applies to the current situation in a way...

I came from the same type of household that would Demonize D&D for its great evil, and then hand me Lord of the Rings as a suggested reading material.  I finally approached the parentals and asked what was different about LoTR magic and D&D magic...

But the point that applies is that often our Perception outweighs Reality.  When it happens in a game you get ideas like, "Hey, let's design this dungeon experience that will occupy people for 4-5 levels (read 40-50 hours) and let them get this cool gear and face these interesting gaming experiences."  Of course that really means doing the SAME experiences over and over in what becomes somewhat mindless repetition... you know sort of like Milestone reporting and paperwork.  How can a person who does not enjoy meetings, paperwork, and repetitive, non-creative tasks design a game that creates those VERY features for the players and calls them "fun"... the same way people could say D&D was evil but Tolkein was blessed I guess.

Man, this is like the king of all, uh, "rerail" posts.  You've taken the "poor planning" aspect of the thread, the "D&D is evil" side conversation, and the "grind-is-boring" conversation and united them by declaring them ONE AND THE SAME.  I'm not sure if you succeeded, but I'll be damned if it wasn't a noble effort.

But, if there is a code that says (IF [upkeep not paid] THEN [house dies]) it seems that you could make it say (IF [siege engine = hit] THEN [house dies]). 

So the challenging part of implementing siege combat is deleting an object from the world?  Seems reasonable.

Edit:  Heh, seriously with the green-colored sarcasm?  I like it.

[Endie]

[So the challenging part of implementing siege combat is deleting an object from the world?  Seems reasonable.

Nice one.  But the tradition is to put stuff like that in green*, as someone will eventually miss the joke and write a massive "I am a developer" flame otherwise.

*This is not sarcasm.

[WindupAtheist]

Same reason Mark Jacobs wants to spit-shine UO, I would assume.  You basically have a launched and partly-functional MOG, the cost to bring it up to some level of quality can't be as huge as making one from scratch.

Yeah, that's a pretty good analogy I guess.  It's just a little more understandable in the case of EA, since UO is the only MMO they've managed to launch so far that hasn't totally gone down the shitter and they're just working with what they've got.  Well, that and Camelot now that EA owns Mythic, but I think Camelot was a little behind even old UO for subscribers last I heard.

[dr_dre]

i like your style..

ill vouch for you :)


Cheers

Dre

[Roac]

It seems too many people here want the blame to fall in one person's lap or another.  It was some MS exec's fault or Brad's fault, primarilly.  Seems that there's more than enough to go around.

Communication issues seem to be rife all around.  I've never managed or worked on a project of even a modest size where performance metrics wern't required.  I demand them of any employee or vendor, and they get demanded of me.  The scope and formality varies, but it's always there.  QA would be one of the things I'm interested in; why, for example, wasn't MS aware of the effective lack of a QA staff?  Even if fairly informal, that sort of check should've fit in *somewhere* on the review.  This is something both MS and Brad should've been aware of, so the fact that it seems to have slipped through somewhere shows problems both ways.  While MS could have pulled the rug out from under Sigil, it would seem that it would be unintentional to do so; you don't purposefully sabotage your own product.

As for MS, it would seem mostly their fault if they put Sigil under an inexperienced team like Zoo Tycoon (I would agree with MMOGs being nothing like most other stuffs - order of magnitude difference here).  It doesn't really matter whether they wanted to put a "tighter leash" on Sigil or not, doing so was a mistake.  Not much to say here.  If I saw that change happen, I'd have bailed from Sigil and gone elsewhere.  People with experience in one of their enterprise apps would have been a better choice.

Where Brad is talking about having to routinely go back and ask for more money, I'm not sure what he means by that.  If he means going and constantly inflating the budget for the game, then yes, that is a problem, and Brad's fault entirely.  If he thought that he was going to compete with WoW on a budget basis, then he should've had the $80-100m lined up from day one.  If he didn't have that, he wasn't competing with WoW.  He should've known that, and made it clear to MS.  That's ok if they weren't; but again, communication.  If they were promised that figure and later cut off, that would be more MS' fault.  I doubt that's the case.

Another point; if Brad was aware of upper management sharing responsibility between the 360 and Vanguard, it seems a hugely missed opportunity to try to heavily tie Vanguard in with that console.  Maybe it was discussed and dismissed, but I'm surprised it didn't go down this road.

As for the firing thing... Brad, I'd really hope you read this part.  That was a shitty, shitty thing to do, and a lousy reason to not be there.  Because you might cry?  What the fuck do you think was on the minds of everyone else?  Or nevermind that, what about the minds of the people who wound up having to deliver the news, and make excuses on your behalf?  You don't put subordinates in the position of doing things you're unwilling do yourself.  Never, NEVER ask that of someone else.  You think it's too emotionally difficult for you, but you've no trouble kicking that to someone else to do?  Fuck you.  If this sort of approach was AT ALL similar to other areas of your management style, I think I have an idea where a good many of the problems originated.  

[Signe]

i like your style..

ill vouch for you :)


Cheers

Dre

Are you a real doctor?

[wraith808]

Don't get me started about MADD 

Oh... and a link to an interview with Smedley on Shacknews
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2007/051707_johnsmedley_1.x

Personally, I don't think we'll ever know what really happened, because there's too much emotion, CYA, and obfuscation involved.

[schild]

Smed is very good at his job. There's no reason to think that anything he did had a negative effect on the game. Anything.

[Morfiend]

Oh... and a link to an interview with Smedley on Shacknews
http://www.shacknews.com/extras/2007/051707_johnsmedley_1.x

Smed came of rather well in that interview. Definitely not very candid. But better than a lot of interviews I have read in the past.

[wraith808]

Smed is very good at his job. There's no reason to think that anything he did had a negative effect on the game. Anything.

Oh... I didn't mean to imply that at all, and I totally agree.  I was just saying in general, I don't think that we'll ever know.

[ShynDarkly]

Whatever you may think of Smeds and SOE (oooh, should I wax lyrical about EQ CS or sweeping changes from last day of SWG beta to release day, or my thoughts on 'keying' ... no, keep it short), their decision to stick with VG rather than close it down smacks to me of shrewd business sense - keep those folks who've been aching for the new EQ on your sites, looking at your forums, playing games under your 'single fee plays all' banner, until such time as you rollout whatever EQ/EQ2/VG replacement is sitting down the line somewhere.

[Zodiac]

WoW, for example, felt as though it had a good army of testers behind it. LOTRO has that polished feeling too. Looking at the LOTRO manual, I see 44 names under QA. Identifying programmer's is less clear because the credits use the term "game systems engineering", "technology platform", "technology engineering", and "service technology engineering"... which sums to 36.

All those you listed are engineering departments with all programmers (and a handful of supporting staff). Though contents from Design also need to be tested. We have outside testing as well from Midway. I would say in the end it's pretty close to the 1-to-1 ratio. And goodness, I will take more testers, more! more! :D

There's really no other way to test if you are in a rapid, iterating environment. Otherwise, your testing effort will never be able to keep up with development.

[Sir Fodder]

I don't know much about Mr. Smedley but reading that interview was like a fresh breath of sanity compared to much of the corporate pap that has been spouted about these issues lately; espciallay wrt community management/player perceptions.

[Teveran]

Im new here, but I just wanted to express myself...especially after reading this interview.

First and foremost...I like Vanguard. I have 3 characters I play and I have fun with the game and really enjoy how the characters are developing. I can honestly say I hope the game is around for a long while and I hope SoE Can make it healthy and get the population numbers back up. Some may say Im crazy for liking the game, but to each their own.

Now its obvious that the management situation in Sigil was a complete and udder wreck. Typical of management these days there are people in charge who should never be. You still have to tip your hat to the grunts who were able to make everything go. There were still some very large patches going and alot of fixes and improvements that managed to go out even with the train wreck that was in progress.

But my main statement is this. I dont care what brad mcquaid ever does anywhere again. I will NEVER have any interest in any product he backs and puts his name behind. The guy is a first rate clown and couldnt lead ants to a picnic let alone manage something as complex as an MMO. And as for his creative side...sure there are some neat aspects to vanguard...but is there really anything that anyone else couldnt have come up with? I like the combat system, but come on, Ive thought of similar stuff over the years...I just wasnt bold enough to form a company and try to finagle people into thinking it was the next big thing. And I certainly dont fancy myself as being some sort of big time game designer/developer/snake oil salesman.

Brad needs to go take a flying leap because to me at least his name is mud. What an idiot.

Tev

[ShynDarkly]

Terevan, I'm not going to try to defend Brad or his actions, but as someone who's had, what I thought at the time was the 'next big idea', its all too easy to get folks to back you funding, doubly so if you've been tied to previous successes. However, its a whole different thing to be able to both run the business and turn that idea into reality. Brad's not the first designer who's tried and had things turn bad, and he wont be the last. Whilst I don't agree with his purported actions, I can understand them.

More surprising to me in this whole saga, is the apparent lack of oversight from the people who were providing the funding; the length of time and magnitude of the venture before people realised that the idea was not going to be realised is somewhat staggering given the fact that both MS and SOE have been through similar debacles in the past.

[tazelbain]

Smed is a douchebag just like Brad.  Smed is just better at it.

[Merusk]

More surprising to me in this whole saga, is the apparent lack of oversight from the people who were providing the funding; the length of time and magnitude of the venture before people realised that the idea was not going to be realised is somewhat staggering given the fact that both MS and SOE have been through similar debacles in the past.

IMO, Smed saw this day coming as soon as Brad went to him with his hat in his hands.  It was an easy way of adding another game to the Station without laying out a huge amount of the initial funding and time.  Even buggy as hell as it is, if they got it for a song, it won't take many subs or much time to turn into profit. 

But we've covered that already.