Well. I fixed this problem.

[Slyfeind]

You all don't understand! The things need to be more MASSIVE!!!

[schild]

Despite being total sarcasm, that's an interesting point. During the end of my time with WAR, it felt more like a bland TF2 with a GIANT lobby. Unfortunately, they decided to fill that giant lobby a goddamn bunch of necessary bullshit to compete. /snore Imagine having to grind on AI to unlock the weapons for team play in TF2. That would be lulz.

[squirrel]

No, I'm saying MMOs should have more than just grinds with 3 trees to spec in.  I used FF as an example everybody knows for story telling, not that that should be the end all, be all of the game, but a part of the whole.

Stay with me now because I know i'm using ideas that go beyond spamming worthless shit on the forums or crying about how you can't level fast enough.

Be great if you did use ideas. Right now your just saying bullshit we've all heard before. How about you explain what you mean without the empty platitudes? You know, actual systems and mechanics that you think would work instead of the fucking worthless buzzwords like "meaningful progression". Believe me kiddo, we've heard all that before. "Interactive questing! Involved story telling! Meaningful progression! Guiding Narrative!".

[tolakram]

Who here believe anyone in an MMO reads the quest text, especially if you get red circles and arrows and a little guy on your shoulder shouting warmer, colder?

[schild]

Who here believe anyone in an MMO reads the quest text, especially if you get red circles and arrows and a little guy on your shoulder shouting warmer, colder?

Children read quest text and some, but not all, roleplayers.

[squirrel]

There are gods, and they are capricious, and have way way more than ten commandments. Nobody knows how many because everyone clicked past them.

[tolakram]

Children read quest text and some, but not all, roleplayers.

My son is 9, he plays WAR with me.  Like his father he could care less about some silly text (which I force him to read anyway because his reading needs work).  Red circles and arrows rule!   z

[runagate]

I was bored of Tor/Serpents on my second character, after ditching my Witch Hunter to play a Swordmaster, so I decided that I'd supplement my leveling with quest grinding.  It's a grind, no doubt, but once I reached the t4 zones my levels just started to fly.  It's fast by an MMO's standard, but only for certain classes.  My Swordmaster could aoe down groups of quest mobs and solo through the second stage of a PQ, not many classes can do that, so I can see how leveling through PvE can be frustrating.

I was lucky to roll on a server with a decent population, and playing Order we get instant queues and have plenty of keeps to take, but there isn't really much impetus behind taking a keep when the Lord drops completely random bags.  If every BO were a mini PQ with a potential blue/purple bag and every Keep were a gigantic PQ, with similar mechanics as the Witching Night event, then I could see a pretty huge influx of players to the RvR lakes.

Completing the Witching Night PQ has dropped us a Gold bag every win and at least 5 blues and purples, and we've got just under a Warband there.  The last time we took T4 keeps with a groupl of 10 people, only 3 ended up getting a bag above blue in 6 keep completions; that's a pretty fucked up disparity.

[waffel]

I'm sorry, but adding items REwards as incentive to do any RvR at all is just bad game design. Especially when the items are only a few stat points and resist points better than your green.

It either turns into people doing the RvR for the item rewards, because they're actually BETTER than their current loot, or people not doing the RvR because the items suck. They need to find a better way to do it, dangling the item reward carrot as the end all/be all fix for everything is old and tired. Why can't they find a better way to push people to RvR similar to DAoC?

edit: typo

[schild]

Children read quest text and some, but not all, roleplayers.

My son is 9, he plays WAR with me.  Like his father he could care less about some silly text (which I force him to read anyway because his reading needs work).  Red circles and arrows rule!   z

Thank you for your anecdote.

I had a bit here talking about your son needing more patience, but I really can't be asked to give a shit about his vocabulary or attention span.

Edit: And yes, I know I'm a dick.

[runagate]

The item wards wern't added last minute, they were actually planned; which is simply an additional kick in the nutterbutters.

[BitWarrior]

I'm sorry, but adding items REwards as incentive to do any RvR at all is just bad game design. Especially when the items are only a few stat points and resist points better than your green.

You're right. And everyone who raided Serpentshrine Cavern were there because they were really concerned about the water supply in Outland becoming monopolized by Lady Vashj.

Right?

[tolakram]

Thank you for your anecdote.

I had a bit here talking about your son needing more patience, but I really can't be asked to give a shit about his vocabulary or attention span.

Edit: And yes, I know I'm a dick.

More hate, less content.

More learning to quote :/

[Ard]

You're right. And everyone who raided Serpentshrine Cavern were there because they were really concerned about the water supply in Outland becoming monopolized by Lady Vashj.

Right?

I totally wiped raids because I was secretly a Naga sympathizer, and not because I sucked.  I swear!

[Typhon]

Children read quest text and some, but not all, roleplayers.

My son is 9, he plays WAR with me.  Like his father he could care less about some silly text (which I force him to read anyway because his reading needs work).  Red circles and arrows rule!   z

Thank you for your anecdote.

I had a bit here talking about your son needing more patience, but I really can't be asked to give a shit about his vocabulary or attention span.

Edit: And yes, I know I'm a dick.

I never noticed before this, but you really can't stand to be told you are wrong, in any context.  This wouldn't be surprising if you weren't wrong so often.

[schild]

Children read quest text and some, but not all, roleplayers.

My son is 9, he plays WAR with me.  Like his father he could care less about some silly text (which I force him to read anyway because his reading needs work).  Red circles and arrows rule!   z

Thank you for your anecdote.

I had a bit here talking about your son needing more patience, but I really can't be asked to give a shit about his vocabulary or attention span.

Edit: And yes, I know I'm a dick.

I never noticed before this, but you really can't stand to be told you are wrong, in any context.  This wouldn't be surprising if you weren't wrong so often.

I don't mind being told I'm wrong, I just mind being told by a sample size of 1 that I'm wrong. Go play a kids game, see how long those kids sit around the quest givers. His kid not reading is probably more a byproduct of him not reading the quest text rather than the game providing lame context. I would recommend Wizard101 and Toon Town for examples, but I haven't messed around with toon town so it may be a shit example.

Edit: Another great example is that newspaper from Club Penguin - Penguin Times I think or something of that nature. Pretty sure they put out a press release that it's the most read newspaper in the world or someshit. What's the percentage of adults that reads anything from an "adult" mmog I wonder. I'd imagine it's 1/10th that of the kids and their overactive imaginations (a healthy thing, btw) reading stuff like the Penguin newspaper.

[tolakram]

I don't think you're wrong nor do I think my sampling rate of one is right.  /shrug

[UnSub]

Edit: Another great example is that newspaper from Club Penguin - Penguin Times I think or something of that nature. Pretty sure they put out a press release that it's the most read newspaper in the world or someshit. What's the percentage of adults that reads anything from an "adult" mmog I wonder. I'd imagine it's 1/10th that of the kids and their overactive imaginations (a healthy thing, btw) reading stuff like the Penguin newspaper.

Here's the link to that story.

Penguin Times has a distribution of 6.7 million and attracts 30 000 players submissions DAILY.

Some kids sit down and read everything. Some don't. Just like normal players.

Back to WAR: the actual way lore text and mission objectives are presented makes it clear that the mission text is just fluff. It's in a paler colour and has a very tenuous link to the actual mission objectives, which are spelled out in black at the bottom of the screen. A lot of the time I just accepted everything, then checked the map to see what I should be doing.

[Slyfeind]

The mission lore makes no sense to me. It's like "There are gods, and then there are ELDER GODS. Do you see what paint is on my face?! I wish I knew what my mother looked like. OBJECTIVE: KILL TEN RATS!"

[UnSub]

I'm sorry, but adding items REwards as incentive to do any RvR at all is just bad game design. Especially when the items are only a few stat points and resist points better than your green.

You're right. And everyone who raided Serpentshrine Cavern were there because they were really concerned about the water supply in Outland becoming monopolized by Lady Vashj.

Right?

If you want to be able to progress solely through RvR, you need a mechanism that rewards players in a similar (and probably better) way to PvE. It also encourages players out of the safety of PvE.

I think there would be a decent case - if RvR is indeed the core of WAR, hahahaha - to say that RvR should contain the best loot and rewards in-game.

[UnSub]

The mission lore makes no sense to me. It's like "There are gods, and then there are ELDER GODS. Do you see what paint is on my face?! I wish I knew what my mother looked like. OBJECTIVE: KILL TEN RATS!"

I also read a few before getting over it.

"Blah blah blah sorrow, blah blah blah darkness, blah blah blah revenge, please return this book to the library."

[Nebu]

If WAR were a PvP game at the core, PvE would be something you did WHEN THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE TO DO.  Instead PvE is the source of the best gear in game (granted, they put the pve in some contested zones... but meh).  Something is wrong with this picture.  

[runagate]

If WAR were a PvP game at the core, PvE would be something you did WHEN THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE TO DO.  Instead PvE is the source of the best gear in game (granted, they put the pve in some contested zones... but meh).  Something is wrong with this picture.  

I really think they spent the last big chunk of beta dev time on developing the PvE itemization to cover the gaping lack of RvR content and itemization.  The renown sets are just embarrassing and were itemized in a MUCH earlier incarnation of the game (pre-January full beta relaunch).

[Typhon]

Children read quest text and some, but not all, roleplayers.

My son is 9, he plays WAR with me.  Like his father he could care less about some silly text (which I force him to read anyway because his reading needs work).  Red circles and arrows rule!   z

Thank you for your anecdote.

I had a bit here talking about your son needing more patience, but I really can't be asked to give a shit about his vocabulary or attention span.

Edit: And yes, I know I'm a dick.

I never noticed before this, but you really can't stand to be told you are wrong, in any context.  This wouldn't be surprising if you weren't wrong so often.

I don't mind being told I'm wrong, I just mind being told by a sample size of 1 that I'm wrong. Go play a kids game, see how long those kids sit around the quest givers. His kid not reading is probably more a byproduct of him not reading the quest text rather than the game providing lame context. I would recommend Wizard101 and Toon Town for examples, but I haven't messed around with toon town so it may be a shit example.

Edit: Another great example is that newspaper from Club Penguin - Penguin Times I think or something of that nature. Pretty sure they put out a press release that it's the most read newspaper in the world or someshit. What's the percentage of adults that reads anything from an "adult" mmog I wonder. I'd imagine it's 1/10th that of the kids and their overactive imaginations (a healthy thing, btw) reading stuff like the Penguin newspaper.

Lol, I don't think he was trying to refute your assessment (which you have debated nicely in the post above).  I think your comment about kids reading in games prompted him to tell a story about his kid, reading, and playing the game,... cause parents love their kids. 

So he tells a nice story about his kid trying being like his old man, lol, and then you break out the blackjack and apply some f13 'justice', er, hate.  I couldn't figure out why you were being such a gratuitous dick at first.  Now it's just funny.

[Xuri]

Who here believe anyone in an MMO reads the quest text, especially if you get red circles and arrows and a little guy on your shoulder shouting warmer, colder?

I've read every single quest dialogue/text I've encountered in any MMO(G/RPG) I've played since 1. january 1998 - though I might skip it if I'm on my 5th character, doing the same quests.

[Zzulo]

huh, I think the quest text is great


certainly made my questing a lot more fun once I started reading the quest texts

[Righ]

Give me the swords and sorcery version of Eve and I'd never look at another game again.

It wouldn't really work, would it? Auto-attacking very slowly with your greatsword while somebody else auto-attacks relatively slowly with his daggers. Meanwhile, several minutes away by witch rebirth, somebody is shooting another person slowly with a crossbow because they fell asleep while harvesting dirt.

However, much of what is good in EVE should stolen by somebody wishing to make a game that doesn't involve always being in a spaceship or vehicle.

[rk47]

Give me the swords and sorcery version of Eve and I'd never look at another game again.

It wouldn't really work, would it? Auto-attacking very slowly with your greatsword while somebody else auto-attacks relatively slowly with his daggers. Meanwhile, several minutes away by witch rebirth, somebody is shooting another person slowly with a crossbow because they fell asleep while harvesting dirt.

However, much of what is good in EVE should stolen by somebody wishing to make a game that doesn't involve always being in a spaceship or vehicle.

donkey caravans ftw. lol, going town to town selling gold n silver. Native barbarians blocking a bridge? Coooool.

[EWSpider]

Give me the swords and sorcery version of Eve and I'd never look at another game again.

It wouldn't really work, would it? Auto-attacking very slowly with your greatsword while somebody else auto-attacks relatively slowly with his daggers. Meanwhile, several minutes away by witch rebirth, somebody is shooting another person slowly with a crossbow because they fell asleep while harvesting dirt.

However, much of what is good in EVE should stolen by somebody wishing to make a game that doesn't involve always being in a spaceship or vehicle.

I was being too lazy to type out all the things I'd like to see stolen from Eve and put into a Swords and Sorcery game.  The combat system isn't one of the things on my list.  Off the top of my head:

1.  Sandbox
2.  Central safe area
3.  Outer regions open PvP and incentivized
4.  Thriving economy (how to implement this in a fantasy game would certainly be a challenge since Eve's success comes from so many resources being lost in PvP)
5.  Resources to claim and fight over in the outer regions

etc.

[Lantyssa]

Who here believe anyone in an MMO reads the quest text, especially if you get red circles and arrows and a little guy on your shoulder shouting warmer, colder?

I've read every single quest dialogue/text I've encountered in any MMO(G/RPG) I've played since 1. january 1998 - though I might skip it if I'm on my 5th character, doing the same quests.

Me, too.  I'll readily admit I'm probably in the minority.

Strangely, it's part of the reason I don't like grouping.  I want to read everything, and I can be a bit slow at reading.  Everyone else is <click> <click> <head to red spot>.

[Arthur_Parker]

I was being too lazy to type out all the things I'd like to see stolen from Eve and put into a Swords and Sorcery game.  The combat system isn't one of the things on my list.  Off the top of my head:

1.  Sandbox
2.  Central safe area
3.  Outer regions open PvP and incentivized
4.  Thriving economy (how to implement this in a fantasy game would certainly be a challenge since Eve's success comes from so many resources being lost in PvP)
5.  Resources to claim and fight over in the outer regions

etc.

Here you go

[HaemishM]

I always read the quest text. The problem is that the quest text is often not that good. The quest text should actually explain what the objectives are in context of the world. They often just throw out some fluffy story full of Warhammer style, but leave the directions in meta game speak. While the meta game speak in black text makes the objectives clear (most of the time), it's all too easy to just follow that text and skip the lore. Which means the lore as written is a failure not because it isn't interesting, but is separate from the game experience. To be fair, WoW isn't really that much better, which is obvious since this system was ripped wholesale from WoW with the red blob on the map added.

[Sheepherder]

I'm not talking about graphics.  MMOs will change when players can really experience epic stories by BEING their class.  I agree that having fun is important, otherwise MMOs wouldn't even work now, but I'm talking about how we have fun.  MMOs need to Cover up EXP with meaningful progressions, making every quest a story on par with final fantasy like narratives, and then teaching a player their class in a subtle way that makes them an expert.  Think about it.  We learn to play our class on the forums, reading peoples tips and builds.  Questing now is only there to serve as a way to fill a meter.  MMOs are basically FPS Multiplayer games with strategy interjected.  Strategy being: filling your niche and tweaking your build.  You get to a top rank, tweak your build, and play.  And I'm not saying PVE is that important, it's about really making things massive and interactive so that playing WITH people is an amazing time.  That includes PVP.

Fuck this kid is worse than HRose, at least he clarifies afterwards so that we can see into the method of his batshit insanity.  Please, explain how "BEING your class" is different than "filling your niche and tweaking your build".  Are you talking about Morrowind/Oblivion style leveling where your skills improve as you use them, and thus players are encouraged to cockblock themselves?

Despite being total sarcasm, that's an interesting point. During the end of my time with WAR, it felt more like a bland TF2 with a GIANT lobby. Unfortunately, they decided to fill that giant lobby a goddamn bunch of necessary bullshit to compete. /snore Imagine having to grind on AI to unlock the weapons for team play in TF2. That would be lulz.

Which makes me wonder why people put up with and even rationalize gear/level grinds and other forms of catassery in MMORPG's when the shit just isn't fun and is a blatant time sink.  Can a game sell well which uses a short level grind as a form of gating content while you are learning your class, and gear as a form of play style customization rather than an alternate form of progression once you are max level?

Quest text isn't read because there is no reason to read it (because the quest summary) and players just want to get their grind on.  Having voice-overs and giving out temporary buffs (or exp?) if the player sticks around for the text would solve some of this, having the actual instructions for performing the quest spelled out in the "flavor" text would solve the rest.

P.S. My first post, so: MARK JACOBS HAI LOOK HERE!
P.P.S Tried to cut down the size of my novel, it's hard with the quotes and image.

[Venkman]

Eh, not so much on the voiceovers. For one, listening is much slower than reading. For another, even EQ2 which launched with a large amount of voiceovers couldn't justify the expense of doing it for all quest givers at launch, and certainly couldn't thereafter.

The best way to "solve" this is to not look at quest text not being read as a problem. Look deeper. If the lore doesn't matter a whit, then you might as well just hand out MS Outlook accounts and fill people's Tasks daily. All this talk of IP over the years has made me smile. It has never mattered. The genre has devolved to those aforementioned Outlook Tasks with the only "choice" being whether to do it or not.

If you want people to care, then provide actual choice. Rip stuff off from RPGs. Yes hard/complex/expensive. But I'd argue there's a heck of a lot more replay value in making the other choices than there are in simply playing a different class.

For stories to matter you need to make choices that matter in the context of the story. Otherwise, you're just one of the millions of assembly line workers waiting to rotate to a different station.

[Hindenburg]

Darniaq, JRPG's have consistently proven that people don't give a crap about choice. What most of them want is bishies, boobs and lots of agnst, not choices. Angst = epic. Just look at most of Shakespeare.

VA's vs Reading. Passive > Active. VA's win. You'll still run into the people that were so lazy that they couldn't even be bothered to hold A to play the audio logs in Bioshock, but those gents should be, in theory, the minority. Since VA's cost more than writers, and AoC has shown that if you're gonna do VA's with quest text, you better do it all the way or get ready to eat some flak, odds are that most mmo softhouses simply won't bother with them. Infinite Undiscovery also got flak for this (and also for being a shitty jrpg).