Windows 8

[ghost]

I'm a huge Mac fan, and I like Windows 7 quite a bit better than Lion and Mountain Lion for usability, speed and stability. 

[Salamok]

Windows 7 was and is excellent.

Best OS I have ever used and if MS didn't have it's head so far up it's ass in regards to web development (or even the internet in general) I would still be using it.

[Yegolev]

For 99% of the consumer world Linux Mint or Ubuntu would work just fine.  And it does have the fact that it is free going for it.

[ghost]

For 99% of the consumer world Linux Mint or Ubuntu would work just fine.  And it does have the fact that it is free going for it.

Android is Linux....

[Yegolev]

[naum]

For 99% of the consumer world Linux Mint or Ubuntu would work just fine.  And it does have the fact that it is free going for it.

/true

That's the whole premise of Chrome OS -- all you need is a web browser. That's what 90-95% of what users do -- browse the web, edit documents, play FB games, read & send email. No storage needed, everything stashed in the cloud.

No, not going to be able to play Bioshock Infinite on it but eventually "the cloud" and thin client is going to be the endgame for gaming as well as most apps (except tools and building the apps).

[Yegolev]

I'd maybe agree if Ubuntu hadn't, last I checked, moved all the shit around to annoying places.  I have a shitty and tiny laptop which I didn't want to to to reinstall WinXP on, and Ubuntu would have worked great but it's annoying to use.

I haven't used Mint but I can't see how anyone that is interested in producing a linux for home use has grown up enough to create one that "just works".  I'd like to be wrong because I have a use for it.

[ghost]

Mint is pretty goddamned easy to use, really. 

And Ubuntu moved things to funny places for you, but for other people it is probably pretty intuitive.  And I don't mean that as a slight to you, I mean that you are a person that uses a computer every day for a living and is used to things being in a certain place.  Ubuntu is also, like Microsoft, positioning itself to be a tablet platform.  That is why Mint is so appealing.  Shit, even my wife can use Mint, which is saying something.

[Fabricated]

For 99% of the consumer world Linux Mint or Ubuntu would work just fine.  And it does have the fact that it is free going for it.

/true

That's the whole premise of Chrome OS -- all you need is a web browser. That's what 90-95% of what users do -- browse the web, edit documents, play FB games, read & send email. No storage needed, everything stashed in the cloud.

No, not going to be able to play Bioshock Infinite on it but eventually "the cloud" and thin client is going to be the endgame for gaming as well as most apps (except tools and building the apps).

[citation needed]

[MahrinSkel]

I use my little Coby tablet 90% of the time these days, and after the last time my experiments borked it and I had to restore it to factory defaults, I haven't installed any apps except Facebook and Feedly (which just shells the chrome browser, essentially).  Every once in a while I use the calculator, other that that it's all web in one way or another.

Of course, if I need to play with code, spreadsheets, or anything more data-intensive, I use the laptop.  But most people wouldn't need that.

--Dave

[Salamok]

I haven't used Mint but I can't see how anyone that is interested in producing a linux for home use has grown up enough to create one that "just works".  I'd like to be wrong because I have a use for it.

Mint is as close to just working as Linux currently gets.  My 3 year old laptop's only issue was an annoying system beep at the login screen which was easily enough solved after a quick google.  My new HTPC also only had 1 issue with mint to troubleshoot (no sound over HDMI) after having several with Ubuntu (fucking eject button on the DVD drive).  My only real complaints with Mint are that the 32 bit version defaults to only using a single core of your CPU and you have to patch in support for more (64 bit doesn't have this issue) and the damn num lock key not behaving according to the bios settings (which is an issue with every version of Linux I have tried).

Also, using the Cinnamon desktop manager in Mint would most likely solve your gripe with the desktop.  Unfortunately I have yet to find a windows 7 style start bar for Cinnamon that is worth a shit and getting wobbly windows to work in Cinnamon isn't trivial ;(

[Surlyboi]

Windows 7 was and is excellent.

7 was and is the best version of 'doze I've ever used.

[Numtini]

That's the whole premise of Chrome OS -- all you need is a web browser. That's what 90-95% of what users do -- browse the web, edit documents, play FB games, read & send email. No storage needed, everything stashed in the cloud.

I recently had someone who wanted to buy a notebook to do nothing but browse the web and facebook. Had her sold on the Chromebook until she heard it didn't run Windows programs, then that was the end. I'm 99.9% sure this person will never install anything on their laptop (well adware and viruses), but like someone who commutes down a highway alone buying an Chevy Suburban "just in case" they need to go off roading with 6 passengers, she wasn't willing to give the option of doing more with it.

Windows 8 should have been perfect for this type of consumer. They retain their desktop options, but can just sit down with a tablet. Unfortunately, the lack of a dedicated desktop mode poisoned the thing.

[Merusk]

American consumers ALWAYS overbuy on features. Even if you never use that timer on the coffee pot, you still want to know you COULD and damn you for saying I don't need it.

We live a lifestyle of fantasy and self-delusion so we don't murder every motherfucker we come across.

[Yegolev]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

[Teleku]

American consumers ALWAYS overbuy on features. Even if you never use that timer on the coffee pot, you still want to know you COULD and damn you for saying I don't need it.

We live a lifestyle of fantasy and self-delusion so we don't murder every motherfucker we come across.

Have.......... have you ever met a consumer/citizen from another country?

[Numtini]

I have to say, a coffee maker with a timer is one of the best things I've ever bought.

[Ingmar]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

I won't. Even Mint is still firmly in hobbyist/professional land. Why? Drivers, drivers, drivers.

[Merusk]

American consumers ALWAYS overbuy on features. Even if you never use that timer on the coffee pot, you still want to know you COULD and damn you for saying I don't need it.

We live a lifestyle of fantasy and self-delusion so we don't murder every motherfucker we come across.

Have.......... have you ever met a consumer/citizen from another country?

I'll confess I'm basing most of that on automobiles.  The amount of features we demand on vehicles vs the rest of the world? Hilarious.

[schild]

I was on Windows 2000 until Windows 7 came out. I will be on Windows 7 until Windows 14 comes out.

[Venkman]

The whole mac/windows nerd fight should really be about which one you hate less these days.  They are both annoying, crash more often than their previous versions and get in the God damn way instead of trying to be invisible.

This. All of it.

You're right, Naum.  I think it's tough for people that are immersed in computers for work to dissociate themselves from what they do to see the big picture.  iPads and Surfaces are where we'll be in 5 years, for the average Joe, with a plug in monitor and keyboard to make it easier to use at home.

Nah, they'll skip the monitor and keyboard part. People might think they want a lot more than they actually need. But when they make a context-sensitive decision about a CE device, traditionally most don't go for any of the addon accroutrements. This is one reason tablets have worked so well, consoles worked so well, laptops worked so well, etc. Heck, even PC gamers are getting tired of constantly tweaking with their various drivers. Out of the box or not at all.

But this is what makes Microsoft's decision to go full on Windows 8 so confusing.

I've been wondering: how much of Windows 8 is the stupid Metro UI vs under the hood fundamentals? Like, was Windows 7 just Vista with a better desktop such that Windows 9 is just Windows 8 without metro?

They want a unified experience across their business, in a pretend like-Apple move that Apple doesn't even do. But they'll need to fix that quick unless Xbox 720 sets the world on fire and only works with Surface Pro as a controller.

[Venkman]

Ouch.

Personal computer sales plunged 14 percent in the first three months of the year, the biggest decline in two decades of keeping records, as tablets continue to gain in popularity and buyers appear to be avoiding Microsoft Corp's new Windows 8 system, according to [IDC].

[Hammond]

Sigh I saw that report and apparently those are not reported figures from the computer companies. Apparently Gartner came out with totally opposite figures for the Apple sales. So take it and Gartner's reports with a grain of salt.

[Venkman]

Yea their numbers are suspect. HP did report 14% decline in Notebook sales (5% increase in Desktops though), Lenovo seems to be doing fine (prob won't hear more until 4/30), and I ignored the Apple numbers because they are independent of impact on Windows 8.

Could just be analysts feeding the narrative started last summer than Win8 was a bet MS would lose, second tier numbers guys who want the halo of rightness of "I told you so".

But ultimately, I don't think there's any way to spin any of the numbers into a Win8-is-successful conversation. So it's really just a question of degree of failing

[Engels]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

I won't. Even Mint is still firmly in hobbyist/professional land. Why? Drivers, drivers, drivers.

Hmm, what drivers did you have particular difficulty with? Because although there is a bit of a learning curve with graphics drivers for ANY linux distro, I didn't find Mint to be particularly bad; in fact, I'd say easier to get the multi display set up quite easily by comparison to other experiences.

[Ingmar]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

I won't. Even Mint is still firmly in hobbyist/professional land. Why? Drivers, drivers, drivers.

Hmm, what drivers did you have particular difficulty with? Because although there is a bit of a learning curve with graphics drivers for ANY linux distro, I didn't find Mint to be particularly bad; in fact, I'd say easier to get the multi display set up quite easily by comparison to other experiences.

My point is not that I have trouble with drivers; my point is my mom would.

[ghost]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

I won't. Even Mint is still firmly in hobbyist/professional land. Why? Drivers, drivers, drivers.

Hmm, what drivers did you have particular difficulty with? Because although there is a bit of a learning curve with graphics drivers for ANY linux distro, I didn't find Mint to be particularly bad; in fact, I'd say easier to get the multi display set up quite easily by comparison to other experiences.

My point is not that I have trouble with drivers; my point is my mom would.

Your mom would probably buy a pre-made computer if she didn't have you to dick around with it, hopefully one with all the needed drivers already there and ready to rock.

[Salamok]

I'd say easier to get the multi display set up quite easily by comparison to other experiences.

By multi you mean 2 right?  Unless you are using nearly identical graphics cards (compatible with the same driver at least), eyefinity or some cludgy external converter it is damn near impossible to get Linux to support more than 2 monitors.  Compared to Windows where you can throw pretty much anything you want in your box and it just works (as long as your PSU can power it).

[K9]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

I won't. Even Mint is still firmly in hobbyist/professional land. Why? Drivers, drivers, drivers.

Hmm, what drivers did you have particular difficulty with? Because although there is a bit of a learning curve with graphics drivers for ANY linux distro, I didn't find Mint to be particularly bad; in fact, I'd say easier to get the multi display set up quite easily by comparison to other experiences.

My point is not that I have trouble with drivers; my point is my mom would.

This was my thought when I installed Ubuntu onto my old laptop recently. It works fine for me, but it would completely floor my mother. I'm perfectly competent with computers, but I found Ubuntu to be an inconvenient mess to use. Trying to install pretty much anything was a colossal hassle. The notion that linux as it is packaged right now would fly with the majority of consumers is complete fiction; android sure, but not ubuntu.

[ghost]

Fuck it.  Back on target-

PC sales post biggest drop ever in single quarter.  Windows 8 to blame. 

"At this point, unfortunately, it seems clear that the Windows 8 launch not only failed to provide a positive boost to the PC market, but appears to have slowed the market," said Bob O'Donnell, IDC Program Vice President, Clients and Displays. "While some consumers appreciate the new form factors and touch capabilities of Windows 8, the radical changes to the UI, removal of the familiar Start button, and the costs associated with touch have made PCs a less attractive alternative to dedicated tablets and other competitive devices. Microsoft will have to make some very tough decisions moving forward if it wants to help reinvigorate the PC market."

[Hammond]

Darniaq posted that above,

I think that IDC took the wrong take away from those figures and honestly like some others have said Microsoft doesn't give a crap about the existing PC market. They see the future as touch and they are going to deal with short term pain to try to make it in that market.

Outfits like IDC and Gartner has the tendency to pull their figures out of their asses and are wrong a lot. Gartner for example is famous saying that Netbooks were going to be a massive market when they effectively have died off. This report is going to generate a bunch of views (which they are looking for its how they make money).

[Yegolev]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

I won't. Even Mint is still firmly in hobbyist/professional land. Why? Drivers, drivers, drivers.

Hmm, what drivers did you have particular difficulty with? Because although there is a bit of a learning curve with graphics drivers for ANY linux distro, I didn't find Mint to be particularly bad; in fact, I'd say easier to get the multi display set up quite easily by comparison to other experiences.

BZZZT.  No tinkering.  Needs to work immediately after the install completes, otherwise you're still in linux-whargarrbbl land.

[Yegolev]

I think that IDC took the wrong take away from those figures and honestly like some others have said Microsoft doesn't give a crap about the existing PC market.

On the other hand, it's tough finding a HP machine that has a Win7 option.  Obviously this is due to agreements between hardware manufacturers and MS, but when I go looking for laptops/desktops for consumer use (and I recently have) I see the limited and more expensive Win7 options and decide maybe I want to wait a bit for this dumbassery to blow over.

[ghost]

I'll try Mint before I accuse anyone of being a nerd that can't see the normal users for the whargarrbll.  However if it doesn't work....!

I won't. Even Mint is still firmly in hobbyist/professional land. Why? Drivers, drivers, drivers.

Hmm, what drivers did you have particular difficulty with? Because although there is a bit of a learning curve with graphics drivers for ANY linux distro, I didn't find Mint to be particularly bad; in fact, I'd say easier to get the multi display set up quite easily by comparison to other experiences.

BZZZT.  No tinkering.  Needs to work immediately after the install completes, otherwise you're still in linux-whargarrbbl land.

Most of the arguments seem to center around being able to install a linux version onto a computer, which can certainly be difficult.  I have had pretty good luck with desktops, but laptops, in particular some wireless networking cards, have been a bit of a bitch.  Seriously though, for most folks the idea of buying a computer and putting an OS on it is fairly intimidating, even if Windows is usually (but certainly not always) easy to set up.  A pre-loaded version of Linux would work fine for most folks. 

[Ingmar]

Until they buy a new device and plug it in and it doesn't magically work.