Schilling's Green Monster Games

[schild]

While the multiman bit gave us some insight, I wouldn't be doing my job (as a good samaritan?  ) if I didn't point out that not only am I a big fan of gaming executives/designers/whatever having endless horizons. The latest Dai Senryaku release (PS2) wasn't that great, imo, but there's an entire world worth exploring. If only to explore and understand different systems within the genre you love.

Also:
Final Fantasy Tactics (and Advanced)
the Front Mission Series
N1 stuff (La Pucelle Tactics, Disgaea, Makai Kingdom)
Vandal Hearts
Langrisser
Fire Emblem
Ogre Battle/Tactics
Master of Monsters (The original only!)
Suikoden Tactics

While not all of these are amazing, they're all worth investigating.

And there's some pretty important ones coming out soon that I can't talk about yet!

What online games did you play before MMOGs if I could ask (muds, etc)?

[Mrbloodworth]

Again Haemish encapsulates my thoughts.  I built a brand new machine in anticipation of WWII Online (*waits for laughter*).  I don't think I'm alone.  There is such a vast expanse of emptiness in the wargame/wargame-mmo hybrid arena that anything produced with even mediocre gameplay would likely be self-sustaining.  It would never capture the mass appeal of WoW, but I think shooting for that market is a monumental mistake.  There are many niches out there with a strong following that could easily sustain a well made and maintained project.

PLANETSIDE BITCHES!


There, i said it. Id love more wargaming, And careful curt, you seem to like a lot of the same things i do, except moog's.

[HaemishM]

You've seen it? Hell I haven't seen it before and I am looking at it every day. It's not what you've seen before.

You know, your avatard always makes me think you are laughing at me from on high.

Let me rephrase, since obviously I have not seen Copernicus. What I have seen if level-based, Diku-y fantasy MMOG's before. A lot. Too much. Since the only things I know about Copernicus are that 1) it's fantasy, 2) it's concept art has adapted a whimsical cartoon style of design, 3) Curt Schilling is the money man, 4) Salvatore and McFarlane are involved. Based on that, all I can say is it's a fantasy MMOG whose only difference from other fantasy MMOG's is 3, 4 and 5, none of which makes me think the game will be anything special. Until you can tell me something that makes it special, it's filed in the "I've seen that before" category.

Wargaming online? That's something almost no one is doing. That's something I haven't seen before. Fantasy MMOG? Yeah, been there, done that.

And thus the danger of doing any kind of hype/press about your game before you even have an alpha client. The people who care can't be given any information that matters and the people who might care will forget about your game until you can actually tell us more about it. Less is more until you have gameplay video.

[schild]

And careful curt, you seem to like a lot of the same things i do, except moog's.

See, this here is what I'm talking about. "A lot?" What he listed, is to me, one of the most narrow views of gaming I could even imagine. Yes, I understand I'm a little bit of a freak in this area, but my feeling is anyone who wants to work in games, or anyone who really wants to enjoy games, needs what I mentioned above. Breadth. Lots of it. Also, depth. Otherwise, from what I've seen in game design, their pool of things to improve/innovate on is much too small and in the end results in a lot of in-the-box-thinking.

[WindupAtheist]

Yeah, but you're insane.   

And anyway, you don't need to be an expert on airplanes in order to build a decent boat.

[Mrbloodworth]

To be fair, he responded with his favorites, not necessarily all hes played, or even a more narrow "I like this game, for feature X". I think i am rather broad in my gameing, even if i have slants. You have slants too ya know =)

[tazelbain]

I still think there is a disconnect between  MMOG and Wargames.  I like Risk but I have no desire to play as an 'I'.  Nor does it make sense to have a game with 10k nations.  Someone it is going to have to resolve that before MMO Wargames will be viable.

[schild]

Yeah, but you're insane.  

And anyway, you don't need to be an expert on airplanes in order to build a decent boat.

No, but it helps if you're building an airplane to understand fluid dynamics in case of a water landing (caution, scientists, i may be using a word wrong here, YOU KNOW WHICH ONE).

And I like my game designers and executives to understand fluid dynamics. And compared to a single player console title, an MMOG is a plan to its boat.

[Mrbloodworth]

I still think their is a disconnect between  MMOG and Wargames.  I like Risk but I have no desire to play as an 'I'.  Nor does it make sense to have a game with 10k nations.  Someone it is going to have to resolve that before MMO Wargames will be viable.

Expand this thought please?

[Tarami]

I still think their is a disconnect between  MMOG and Wargames.  I like Risk but I have no desire to play as an 'I'.  Nor does it make sense to have a game with 10k nations.  Someone it is going to have to resolve that before MMO Wargames will be viable.

Expand this thought please?

I think he means;
Wargamers don't want to be pawns, they want to be leaders. In a wargame, you're one of few supreme rulers. In an MMO, you're insignificant (even if you control an entire nation, because everyone does).

I think "war MMOs" would could be popular with the type of people who have done military service and liked the raids. Others? Less so.

One issue with MMOs that are truly large scale is that they suffer under the same kind of scope issues as boardgames that get too many expansions and eventually become too grand for their own good - you lose perspective. It's like elections - many people simply do not vote because they feel insignificant. Likewise, people who feel insignificant in something that's just too massive for their interest or time allowance will not enjoy themselves. A war MMO would be forced grouping DELUXE.

With each layer of scope (from you, to squad, to company, to batallion, to army) you do not only add scale, but you also add abstraction. Being at the bottom of that heirarchy will make you frustrated because nothing you do will show up in any significant way. Most games have this rationalised to just one layer or two at most - you, and perhaps your guild.

[HaemishM]

You don't have to be a grunt in a Wargame MMO. That's the first bit of "out of the box thinking" that needs to be dickslapped into a wargame MMOG designer's head. No one wants to be Private Nonentity SwingingDick. Ok, some do, but fuck them. Let them play an FPS. The more abstraction, the better. No individual player should have command of less than 1 squad of guys, and if you want to push the chain up even farther, do so.

The biggest mistake a wargame MMO dev could make would be in trying to make the game a MMORPG based on every soldier being one player.

[Nebu]

The biggest mistake a wargame MMO dev could make would be in trying to make the game a MMORPG based on every soldier being one player.

I think that you're wrong, but the discussion is probably best left for a new thread.


<My favorite games have been Squad Leader and BF1942.  Why?  They reduce the large scale down to the level of the individual.  Heros are made when a single person stands out in a grand theater. >

[Merusk]

I hear 'wargaming online' and I always think along the lines of M:TG.   Sure, the COMMUNITY is massive, but the games themselves aren't.  Ladders, tourneys, different match sizes but not 10000 vs 10000

[HaemishM]

But again, those kinds of games are FPSes. Squad Leader would be awesome... except as an MMORPG or an MMOFPS.

[Nebu]

But again, those kinds of games are FPSes. Squad Leader would be awesome... except as an MMORPG or an MMOFPS.

I think that, properly done, there's not much difference between a persistent FPS and a pvp mmo with a well-executed combat system.  It's all in how you implement itemization and advancement and couple it to a meaningful world combat scenario that does it.  Now, is this an easy thing to do... obviously not.  The possibilities are sure there, particularly with all of the interesting historical and science fiction timeframes to explore. 

[Tarami]

Cannon Fodder Online?

Controlling more than one soldier would mean you had to rely on some kind of AI when you weren't watching a specific soldier. AI sucks, even in squad-based single player games. They get in the way, get owned and are in general very frustrating. This leads to insane micro-managing and suddenly you got an RTS instead. The other option is making it Warfare Manager 2008 Online but I fail to see how to make a management game all that more compelling just because it's online. Like with sims (SimCity, Settlers et.c.) a large part of the fun is breaking down the mechanics and beating the computer.

[tazelbain]

Wargaming is about prosecuting a war.  Players who are doing something else are not wargaming, even if they inhabit the same game space.  There is probably a couple hundred, at most, wargamers in EvE but everyone else is playing a traditional MMO.  

So what passes for massive these days 10k players per gamespace? It just doesn't seem feasable to create a gameworld where there are that many generals running around commanding armies 24/7 in some sort of coherent manor right now.

I so hope there is answer because a Magic of Magic-like MMO would be my robot jesus.

[LC]

That would be true if I had some sort of evil plan behind doing this. I don't. For the most part I am no different than most here with the exception of being able to throw a baseball a lot harder than all of you and the fact I don't throw out F bombs like I used to since I have 4 kids and grew up a little bit. Other than that there isn't much difference in me and most here. I post because I enjoy playing MMO's.

I think I have killed this guy in a game before. Tell me more about how you are better than me.

Someone earlier mentioned I'd fit in better if I posted around the forums. I am not looking to 'fit in' in that manner I don't think. I post in forums that are of interest to me. The ONLY game that's got my attention outside of WoW right now is Sins of a Solar Empire (which I don't think I can recommend highly enough).

So you freely admit that you only came here plug your game after all of that community talk. Have you even looked at these forums, or do you just come directly to this thread? Not every discussion is about a particular game. It really shouldn't matter what games you like.

[tazelbain]

Tell me more about how you are better than me.

You are an unrepentant exploiter, its not hard to be better than you.

[Cheddar]

Why does he have a sig like that?  I thought I was logging into Stratics for a minute there!

[Triforcer]

What's with the hate for this guy?  He hasn't come here talking shit and saying his game is teh awesome and everyone on his team is smarter than all the other morons in the industry.  I suppose if he let most of you into his beta, the mods would become his zealous guardians like in a certain other situation  

Seriously though, he hasn't done anything here that merits so much idiocy.  

[Rasix]

What's with the hate for this guy?  He hasn't come here talking shit and saying his game is teh awesome and everyone on his team is smarter than all the other morons in the industry.  I suppose if he let most of you into his beta, the mods would become his zealous guardians like in a certain other situation 

Seriously though, he hasn't done anything here that merits so much idiocy. 

It's LC and Cheddar.  Who gives a shit?

I think he'll be OK.  Like others have said, he's had a lot worse said to him at various times in this life.  A lot worse than schild bugging him about not playing console games.   

As an aside, I'm getting pretty sick of whole "mods only do their jobs for beta spots" jabs.  It's getting tiresome.   We're not here to shelter grown men from the evils of the internet (except if it can get you fired).

[Margalis]

What's with the hate for this guy?

The fact that he is good at a sport, is famous and is rich probably doesn't help. People are going to be looking for ways to put him down.

Personally my beef with him is the whole ketchup on the sock thing. 

[LC]

What's with the hate for this guy?

The fact that he is good at a sport, is famous and is rich probably doesn't help. People are going to be looking for ways to put him down.

Personally my beef with him is the whole ketchup on the sock thing. 

It wouldn't matter to me if it was a homeless guy that bathes in sewage. I know crap when I see it, and I haven't been wrong so far.

[Slayerik]

Yeah...so...anyways, I am impressed he answered as much as he did there. Cool to get a little insight on Curt.

Hey bud...can I 'borrow' 5k, my truck just died. :( Come on am I really the first one to beg?

[Signe]

He played baseball.  I've seen baseball games, albeit in between bouts of napping.  People shout at you all time.  He's become a game developer - another profession where people shout at you all the time.   I'm sure he can hold his own.  (not in a pervy way!)  Also, this is F13, someplace where people shout at you all the time.

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

I know crap when I see it, and I haven't been wrong so far.

I would love to see documentation of this.

[LC]

I know crap when I see it, and I haven't been wrong so far.

I would love to see documentation of this.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=profile;u=1336;sa=showPosts

I got banned from crapnews for calling DDO a pile of shit.

[AcidCat]

I still like the diku/leveling model,

Lucky you, since there are a dozen or so games out there for you to choose from. Some of us are hoping that someone (anyone) will have the stones to buck the trend and make something different.

There may be quite a few games with this playstyle, but only one worth investing any time into. Not much of a choice there really.

Not that I'm opposed to new ideas of course. And I'm still waiting for the game that will take the Planetside model to the next level.

[gehrig38]

I think I have killed this guy in a game before. Tell me more about how you are better than me.

So you freely admit that you only came here plug your game after all of that community talk. Have you even looked at these forums, or do you just come directly to this thread? Not every discussion is about a particular game. It really shouldn't matter what games you like.

This is the type of post and person that made me laugh when you guys were trouncing on me a few pages back about posting on FOH.  All those descriptions of posters over there can be used for some folks posting here as well. I haven't been involved here as much or as long but there are posts in this BB that could have been cut and pasted from FOH.

The politically correct thing to do and maybe smarter move to make might be to just bypass this.

Unfortunately I sometimes can't and don't, like now. This guy is obviously nothing but a troll and a tool. Zero relevant input to give so he adds commentary that is totally irrelevant and meaningless. You were responding to a post and comments that don't exist, and I am not sure why.

My question is "Dude, you are posting on a public BB where it appears the overwhelming majority of people here think you're an idiot, why?" Shouldn't you start a blog or something where your tiny gaggle of followers, if they exist, can live and converse with you about your complete comprehension of the world we live in and why everyone but you is wrong about everything?

You're too easy man, the world if full of folks like you who relish in sniping from the bleacher seats with no skin in the game.

Oh and for those wanting to send me PM's to tell me to 'cool down' or 'ease off' or 'maybe you should not post for awhile', don't. I'm a big boy and am completely at peace with myself. If I screw up I'm ok with being called on it, it happens, has happened and will happen again.

[taolurker]

The first red name to get banninated?

lol

That would be cool.

Maybe it was worth reading past page 6.

[Strazos]

What is wrong with you people. Stop being fucktards.

[stu]

I dig the concept stills.

From the TTH interview:

Up through the first year and a half of the company through the conceptual phase of the game, we had a broad, broad sweep of different types of art styles that we tried...

Any chance we'll be able to catch some glimpses of how the different styles have evovled from one to the next? Did the team go through phases with a design that resembled something like what we see in Age of Conan or the upcoming Blade & Soul?

[stu]

The rich harvest made the brewmaster smile as an autumn breeze wafted through the fields of gold.

I want to play a Brewmaster.

[Falwell]

I am a die hard wargamer by nature. Check out www.multimanpublishing.com if you are by chance an old grognard board gamer. That's my small publishing company I've owned for about 15 years now.

Ahohoho you and I have some ground to work with here chief.

Bookshelf war games, those bring back the memories. Back in my undergrad we used to get together at the history department chairman's house every Tuesday night and get ripped on cheap scotch and push little cardboard squares around a paper map that you could NEVER get the creases out of till damn near the sun came up. Watching the prof's face turn bright red when he lost an entire armored division after getting pushed into the swamp by a few AT infantry units. Man, those were the days....

If you haven't yet, check out Dominions 3: The Awakening. It's a fantasy turn based strategy / war game that is just aces. Being a former SSI game fan I doubt that the asstastic visuals would bother you at all.