Return of the Book Thread

[Reg]

And yet again we devolve into the popular != good argument.

My problem is that none of the criticism accounts for this astonishing popularity. Normally, popular shit is popular because it's shallow and easy to read. The Covenant stuff is hardly that.  It's certainly not obviously a mass market product with the unlikeable teenager raping anti-hero protagonist and all. So why is it so steadily popular over the course of 30 years? Why did the books win all those literary awards?

You should be able to read the first three Foundation books in a day or two. I re-read them recently and was surprised at how short and simple they were. It's not really comparable to grinding your way through a multi volume Donaldson epic. 

[HaemishM]

And yet all of the Covenant books have been continuously in print since they were first published more than 30 years ago.  Not bad for a bunch of uninteresting books about an uninteresting character.  There must be a demand for leper porn I didn't know about.

Piers Anthony disproves every single word, every single letter and every single thought in your post.

[Ironwood]

I'm not sure you'll like the Gap stuff.

You should.  It's fantastic.  But I'm not sure now.

[Reg]

Anyone that would compare Donaldson to Piers Anthony obviously wouldn't get the Gap. He should probably stick to less demanding authors. There's plenty of good fiction for young adults out there.

[Ironwood]

All of Donaldsons fantasy stuff have the same themes running through them;  it's all about Power, both balanced and unbalanced.

I honestly think if you can't stomach Covenant, you're not going to like Succorso at all.  You're probably going to HATE Morn Hyland.

Hell, how you could even look at Geradan and Elega or even Terisa herself is a mystery.

I strongly suspect that writing off one of Donaldsons is to write off most of them.  With the exception of the new Covenant books.  They're just shit.  Total Mortgage Payers.

[Reg]

I still don't understand Donaldson's popularity though. It's not like its unusual for people to be repulsed by Covenant and his other characters. And Donaldson certainly isn't trying to write mass market candy designed to sell. Maybe people just have better taste than I expect.

[NowhereMan]

Or are far worse human beings. I am though intrigued by the discussion, might pick up the first covenant for a look.

[HaemishM]

Anyone that would compare Donaldson to Piers Anthony obviously wouldn't get the Gap. He should probably stick to less demanding authors. There's plenty of good fiction for young adults out there.

My point was that just because Donaldson has sold for years doesn't mean his books are good because look at just how many books Piers Anthony has written and sold. Anthony's writing is shit from word one to the end and I have never been able to finish one because the writing is that bad. But he continues to get published to this day. If people will buy it, someone will publish it regardless of quality.

I'm not saying Donaldson is a bad writer, far from it. I can see the talent the man has as a wordsmith. But I just don't think I can read more of the Covenant books because the character is just ridiculous. It's like Donaldson read Sartre's Nausea and thought, "This guy isn't tortured enough. I need to take his complete disgust for everything and really make it so the reader wants to hang this fucker up by his testicles while his mother watches."

When I have a ton of other books to read, I'm just not sure I want to commit to 3 or more books with this character when I read too slow as it is.

[Xuri]

I started reading the first trilogy because of the name ("The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever"), which I found cool at the time I guess. I then read the second triology because I had read the first one. And for the same reasons, I'm now reading the tetralogy he's writing. While there's some.. hum.. unenjoyable stuff in there, I keep reading because I like to finish stories I've started on.

Which incidentally is why I'll be buying the three next installments (aka "Memory of Light" split in three) of WoT as well. I need closure =P

[ghost]

Anthony's writing is shit from word one to the end and I have never been able to finish one because the writing is that bad. But he continues to get published to this day.

Kevin J. Anderson makes Piers Anthony look like Flannery O'Connor. 

[Sjofn]

I started reading the first trilogy because of the name ("The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever"), which I found cool at the time I guess. I then read the second triology because I had read the first one. And for the same reasons, I'm now reading the tetralogy he's writing. While there's some.. hum.. unenjoyable stuff in there, I keep reading because I like to finish stories I've started on.

Which incidentally is why I'll be buying the three next installments (aka "Memory of Light" split in three) of WoT as well. I need closure =P

I am usually willing to push through to the end of a story, series or otherwise, even if I decide before I'm done I don't like it, but WoT totally broke me of that habit. I got to book six before I finally said, "Fuck it, it's getting worse and worse and he's taking longer and longer to get any shit done." I have been happier for it, I think.

PS: Fuck Piers Anthony right in the motherfucking ear.

[schild]

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Pride and Prejudice and Zombies

Book of the year? I think so.

[WayAbvPar]

I honestly don't get the whole zombie sub-culture thing.

[schild]

I honestly don't get the whole zombie sub-culture thing.

Hah, that's what you say now.

But just wait.


Just wait.







Wait.

[Hindenburg]

I honestly don't get the whole zombie sub-culture thing.

It's kinda similar to that bacon obssession thing.

[Sheepherder]

I am usually willing to push through to the end of a story, series or otherwise, even if I decide before I'm done I don't like it, but WoT totally broke me of that habit. I got to book six before I finally said, "Fuck it, it's getting worse and worse and he's taking longer and longer to get any shit done." I have been happier for it, I think.

Book six actually is better than most.

[jayfyve]

I read and enjoyed the Covenant Series years ago, and then when The Runes of the Earth came out, I tried to re-read it. I couldn't get through it a second time for some reason. I guess my tastes have changed.

Currently I'm reading through all the sun series by Gene Wolfe. I can't get enough of his stuff. The 2 book Wizard Knight introduced me to Wolfe, I'd highly recommend it!

[Arrrgh]

I read and enjoyed the Covenant Series years ago, and then when The Runes of the Earth came out, I tried to re-read it. I couldn't get through it a second time for some reason. I guess my tastes have changed.

Currently I'm reading through all the sun series by Gene Wolfe. I can't get enough of his stuff. The 2 book Wizard Knight introduced me to Wolfe, I'd highly recommend it!

You have to be careful recommending Gene Wolf. He's a max level elite raid boss type author.  He crushes newb readers.

That said anyone feeling up to it should review the concept of the unreliable narrator and have at The Book of the New Sun.

[HaemishM]

Finished book 1 of Covenant. It had moments towards that end that started to build my interest, then Covenant speaks up or tries to act or doesn't act and it just diminishes the whole thing. And we get to the end and he's in the hospital? As if the whole thing is (and it likely is) just Covenant starting a slow slide into being insane leper guy. I am waffling on whether or not to start book 2 or just go on to something I don't have to struggle to like.

[Ironwood]

Give up.

[Reg]

It was the Land itself and all of the characters other than Covenant that sucked me into the story. If angsty-leper-rapist-guy is really killing your enjoyment that badly then it's not worth the pain. He doesn't improve much.

Fake edit: Oh I understand what you're saying about popular books not necessarily being good books. It's just that usually the popular books that are crap are written badly to pander to a certain audience. Children and retards in the case of Piers Anthony.  The reason I have trouble putting the Covenant stuff into that category is I can't see what audience he's pandering to.  Covenant is horribly annoying and unlikeable. In the second series he introduces another main character from our world who believe it or not is even MORE annoying and unlikeable.

So why on earth do people still buy and read these books?

Real edit: Jesus, I'm getting repetitive in my old age. Sorry about that.

[Ironwood]

Actually, now I rethink :  even if you don't like book 2, at least Hile Troy will be saying stuff to Covenant that YOU WANT TO.

So, you could give up after book 2.

[jayfyve]

That said anyone feeling up to it should review the concept of the unreliable narrator and have at The Book of the New Sun.

I didn't understand this when I started reading it, so it threw me off a bit. After you start looking for this, the reading is even more entertaining. Wolfe certainly doesn't waste any words.

[Margalis]

I think I said it earlier in the thread but I recently read the first Foundation book and found it to be pretty awful. The whole thing reads like typical male power fantasy warped to accomadate nerds - instead of beating people down the heroes outsmart them. The wish fullfilment is annoying but what makes it so silly is that the heroes are only smart in comparison to the completely moronic villains. I don't see the appeal in reading about nerds outsmarting jocks who would probably die from licking lead paint within two weeks anyway.

To be fair stories where the hero outsmarts the villain are tricky to pull off without either making the resolution implausible or making the villains stupid. In particular there is one story in the book where the clever plan is guessable within the first few paragraphs and only works because everyone has sub-chimp IQ.

I think the best book I've read along these lines was one half of one of those old double-sided books from the 60s (?) I remember one half was a Jack Vance story, not sure if that was the one I'm about to describe or the other one. In the story a guy plays some sort of future Chess against an alien super-brain. The stipulations are that if the hero loses the set of games the aliens will take over the universe. It's been quite a while since I read it and maybe it doesn't hold up but at the time I was very impressed with the resolution as it was both clever and unexpected but made perfect sense.

[HaemishM]

Children Pedophiles, perverts, inbred nerds and retards in the case of Piers Anthony.

Fixed that for you. I cannot imagine in what fevered mind much of Piers Anthony's stuff could be considered good.

[Ingmar]

Gene Wolfe is strange stuff, no doubt.

I just finished the K.J. Parker amnesiac trilogy. Decent stuff, but man it spends a lot of time on the day to day mechanics of blacksmithing. Obviously a hobby of the author's, and one that probably didn't need quite so much detail.

[Ingmar]

Children Pedophiles, perverts, inbred nerds and retards in the case of Piers Anthony.

Fixed that for you. I cannot imagine in what fevered mind much of Piers Anthony's stuff could be considered good.

The fevered mind of a 12-14 year old boy, pretty much.

[Sky]

I read Anthony when I was 10-13, so I enjoyed it.

I'll repeat the thing about bookcloseouts.com having a 75% off home improvement/DIY books. I just bought $250 worth of books for $60.

[Sjofn]

I am usually willing to push through to the end of a story, series or otherwise, even if I decide before I'm done I don't like it, but WoT totally broke me of that habit. I got to book six before I finally said, "Fuck it, it's getting worse and worse and he's taking longer and longer to get any shit done." I have been happier for it, I think.

Book six actually is better than most.

I was still crabby from books 4 and 5, book 6 would've had to have been the greatest book ever, I think, for me to not just ragequit in the middle of it.

[FatuousTwat]

I haven't read it in a few years, but has anyone ever read The Homecoming Saga by Orson Scott Card? I guess it's based off the book of mormon, but since I know nothing at all about mormons, I didn't really catch it while I was reading it.

Also, I've read the first 2 of The First Law trilogy, and the Mass Effect prequel book. First Law were good, had great characterization and pacing. Mass Effect book was meh, on par with a decent FR.

[Reg]

Homecoming wasn't one of his best efforts. The Mormon religious stuff is really obvious and that kind of spoiled it for me.

[Chenghiz]

I liked the first Homecoming book for its portrayal of the characters' home city (I forget its name) but yeah, it goes downhill from there as far as obvious religion analogue goes. It's still worth reading before the majority of science fiction, though, for what that's worth. Unless religion really pisses you off.

[Johny Cee]

That said anyone feeling up to it should review the concept of the unreliable narrator and have at The Book of the New Sun.

I didn't understand this when I started reading it, so it threw me off a bit. After you start looking for this, the reading is even more entertaining. Wolfe certainly doesn't waste any words.

Bah.  This thread made me go out and finish the second Latro book, which I owned but had got sidetracked from.  Was good in the way Wolfe is always good.  I mentioned it up thread a bit, but there's a new "best of" collection of Wolfe short stories out now.

Found a copy (in hardcovevr) of The Best of Fritz Leiber from the '70s at my local used book store.  I may have cackled a bit when I paid $2 for it.  I've been meaning to try and track down some of Leiber's out of print stuff for years, but always get sidetracked.

Reread "The Golden Age" trilogy by John C. Wright.  It's basically the right-libertarian flip side to Banks' left-libertarian Culture books.


Mostly wanted to link this short story by Charles Stross:  http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=story&id=61

It's the latest in his Bob Howard "Laundry" books.  Basically it's Lovecraft meets bureaucracy with healthy dollaps of spy/intrigue novel,  told by a narrator who started out as an IT geek.  I really enjoyed the first two books in the series.


Trying to give Jack Vance's "Songs of a Dying Earth" another shot.  Want to get up to speed for the tribute book coming out this summer.  Authors include Glen Cook, GRR Martin, Neil Gaiman, Dan Simmons, and a bunch of others.

[Quinton]

You have to be careful recommending Gene Wolf. He's a max level elite raid boss type author.  He crushes newb readers.

That said anyone feeling up to it should review the concept of the unreliable narrator and have at The Book of the New Sun.

I'm now about halfway through The Shadow of the Torturer, and enjoying it so far.  I think I may have at least started reading The Book of the New Sun years ago, as bits and pieces feel incredibly familiar to me, but I don't think I ever finished it.

The picture he was cleaning showed an armored figure standing in a desolate landscape.  It had no weapon, but held a staff bearing a strange, stiff banner.  The visor of this figure's helmet was entirely of gold, without eye slits or ventilation; in its polished surface the deathly desert could be seen in reflection, and nothing else.

[Ingmar]

Trying to give Jack Vance's "Songs of a Dying Earth" another shot.

Vance is pretty awesome in a lot of ways, but watch out for the Cugel the Clever stuff, as it suffers a bit from Thomas Covenant syndrome. Cugel is just as much a dickhole as Mr. Covenant but without the excuse of leprosy. However, the circumstances of the story are such that you don't want to hurl the book away in disgust due to it for the most part.

If you ever played earlier editions of D&D you can also see the old 'memorizing spells' thing in its original Gygax-inspiring form here, which is pretty entertaining if you're a giant Primus-avatared dork like me.