Return of the Book Thread

[Sky]

The most amazing thing about Donaldson is that he writes this tormented shit for three books...and then writes a second trilogy that makes you long for the 'good ol days'.

Fuck Donaldson, life's too short to waste on dismal shit like that. I tried a few years ago to read the first one again, didn't make it far past the rape. I still own all six books from when I was a kid, I should donate them to the library. Or just burn them.

[Ingmar]

Yeah, I had the same reaction.  I own them, but just couldn't do it.

Ditto, I only made it through like the first half of the first book before I just quit, but I haven't tried reading it in like 15 years.  I just don't get why people like that series.

I agree, to me it is essentially unreadble.

[Hindenburg]

You guys should stay the fuck away from that book I recommended a few pages ago, then. The Slums.

Because the chance that any of you would dabble with brasilian literature was immense, I'm certain.

[Velorath]

Because the chance that any of you would dabble with brasilian literature was immense, I'm certain.

To be fair, I've read some of Paulo Coelho's work, though obviously that's more modern than what you're talking about.

[Hindenburg]

Paulo Coelho's work

No, that's shit on a binder.

[Velorath]

It's simplistic, but I think calling it shit is going a little overboard.

[Ingmar]

I'm not sure I'm getting the connection between the fact that Stephen Donaldson writes shitty fantasy and whether or not we'd enjoy a late 19th century Brazilian novel. Or is this a different 'The Slum'?

[Hindenburg]

The same. Mostly about the naturalistic behaviour of the main character, insanity aside. We're told it was all the rage back in the 19th here.

Velorath, I might have irrational hate for that author.

[Trippy]

The most amazing thing about Donaldson is that he writes this tormented shit for three books...and then writes a second trilogy that makes you long for the 'good ol days'.

Hahaha that's so true. The first trilogy I actually read twice. The second one, it didn't take long before I was skimming pages just so I could advance the plot at a reasonable pace.

[FatuousTwat]

The most amazing thing about Donaldson is that he writes this tormented shit for three books...and then writes a second trilogy that makes you long for the 'good ol days'.

Hahaha that's so true. The first trilogy I actually read twice. The second one, it didn't take long before I was skimming pages just so I could advance the plot at a reasonable pace.

Same. I kept hoping that there would be a happy ending to balance all the terrible shit that happened, but it never appears. Pretty much the same with all his other series I guess.

[Reg]

Jesus you people are all babies. The Covenant stuff is children's literature compared to his Gap series. 

[HaemishM]

The same. Mostly about the naturalistic behaviour of the main character, insanity aside. We're told it was all the rage back in the 19th here.

I have no problem with naturalistic behavior. I just feel like Covenant is mostly an immature bitter twat whose every reaction makes little to no sense based on what he's reacting to. It's like all the other characters are in one story, and he's in another story that doesn't jibe with the first story. He's not just unlikeable, he's almost ridiculous and petulant.

[Hindenburg]

He's a leper. That's, like, a license to be a cunt.
If you're down with naturalism you owe it to yourself to read the Slums. Best. Ending. Ever.

[HaemishM]

I'm down with naturalism. I love Balzac, Zola and Flaubert. I don't think Covenant is naturalist at all - far from it. His dialogue and his internal monologue seems so out of place with everything else in the book. You'd think that'd be a plus, because he's meant to be an outsider to the Land, but instead, it just comes off sounding disjointed. And after a while, you just want to snap two more of his fingers off. He's like a less interesting Lestat, a whiny cunt that people rely on for no good reason.

[Sky]

Lord Foul was much less of a douchebag, just a republican.

[stu]

Stephen King on writing seminar group critiques:

"It seems to occur to few of the attendees that if you have a feeling you just can't describe, you might just be, I don't know, kind of like, my sense of it is, maybe in the wrong fucking class."

- from On Writing

The honest, smart ass approach of the book is enjoyable.

[FatuousTwat]

Jesus you people are all babies. The Covenant stuff is children's literature compared to his Gap series. 

I was able to make it through the Gap series.

The problem with is to me was that Covenants attitude was just way over the top, and I got sick of his incessant whining pretty fucking quickly. At least I could understand why everyone in the Gap series were assholes.

[Sky]

The Gap was awful, I read the first one and only made it through because it was pretty short. I don't know why you'd waste time reading such depressing depravity.

[RhyssaFireheart]

I vaguely remember reading the first Covenant series, and honestly have no desire to read it again.  It just didn't grab me enough to even want to keep the books in my collection.

As for the Gap series, I only managed to get through all the books by reading them in one go and that was only after people kept saying "you have to finish the series!" to me.  So I finished it and thinking about it, I'm not sure why I still have those books in my collection.  I certainly wouldn't count Donaldson as one of my favorite authors or anything like that.  It's as if he came up with the worst characters he could and then tried to build a world around them so he could tell a story to "justify" why they acted as they did.  Reading's supposed to be a bit of escapism, IMO.  I don't need to be beaten over the head about how depraved humanity can be.  I get that from reading the newspaper.

[Reg]

I liked the Covenant books - not so much for the Thomas Covenant character as for all of the others and for the setting.  I also like the Gap series. All the pain getting through it was made worthwhile for me by Angus redemption at the end.

The Mirror of Her Dreams is probably my favourite Donaldson series. It's only two books and no prospect of endless sequels and he tones down the depravity to just under 10 rather cranking it right up to 11 like he normally does.

[FatuousTwat]

I liked the Covenant books - not so much for the Thomas Covenant character as for all of the others and for the setting.  I also like the Gap series. All the pain getting through it was made worthwhile for me by Angus redemption at the end.

The Mirror of Her Dreams is probably my favourite Donaldson series. It's only two books and no prospect of endless sequels and he tones down the depravity to just under 10 rather cranking it right up to 11 like he normally does.

Can't stand the main char. Another case of "Just get the fuck over it already!".

[Ironwood]

You people are insane.

[Arthur_Parker]

Dont believe i have ever read anything by Jack Yeovil. He writes in the wh40k branch?

He wrote the Genevieve series (Drachenfels, Genevieve Undead, Beasts in Velvet) way back when GW was first getting into the fiction business. He's roughly contemporary with the first Gotrek and Felix books by Bill King. AFAIK, he has never written anything else for Black Library.

He also wrote the dark future series (my opinion the best of the GW stuff).

[Ironwood]

Still reading the first Thomas Covenant book, and I'm having a hard time with Covenant. He's not just unlikeable - he's a complete twat. The hunger strike thing and the way he reacts to every character is starting to stretch my believability. Perhaps that's the point - Drool sends him as the harbinger knowing Covenant has the power to save the Land but will never be able to because he's a complete cunt. The rape was hard enough to deal with, piling an unrepentant streak of douchieness on stop is getting difficult to deal with.

You haven't quite got it yet.


The moral of the story is Leprosy is bad.

[Khaldun]

Which is a stupid moral. People lived all sorts of lives as lepers--the colony in Hawaii had nice people, bad people, and every gradation in between. Covenant is just a douche and he's not even an interesting douche. Donaldson just keeps hammering at the same weak characterization ("he is a LEPER") again and again and again. It's like having a fantasy series where the lead character is blind and that's all you know about him: he's blind! Blind! He can't see! Everything's dark! He can't afford to believe in a world where he can see! He's blind!

Finished Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. Wasn't wild about the conclusion, which is more of a downer than I expected. I appreciate why he didn't wrap it up with some kind of fan service "Oh, my protagonists are so clever" ending, though. He did pull off the trick of making a torturer the most interesting and sympathetic figure in the story, though--reminds me a bit of what Martin did with Tyrion.

Going back to Scar Night--I liked the first half, but somehow it didn't pull me in hard enough to keep me going.

Been reading Lloyd Alexander's Prydain series to my daughter. I would absolutely KILL for someone to make a good series of films based on these books. (Just like I'd LIKE to KILL the people who made the Disney film of The Black Cauldron.)

[Ironwood]

Which is a truly fucking stupid thing to say.  Especially since there is a character in there that's blind and clearly has no problem with it.  It's almost like Donaldson knew in the past you were going to say something that retarded.

 

Sometimes sick people are defined by their illness.  Other, stronger people, are not.  Interestingly, the blind guy refused to be defined by his illness and look what happened to him.

Yes, you're reading about a weak man.  That was kind of my point.  Read the second trilogy if you want him to be 'Better'.

[Sky]

Bookcloseouts.com is having a 75% off home improvement books sale. I've got to run home and check my shelf, but I've already saved $87 spending $26 on books, and probably save another $90 after lunch. Some really good stuff in there.

[Khaldun]

The point is that Covenant isn't an interesting or complex weak man. Or maybe it's just that SIX FUCKING BOOKS by a turgid writer about a weak protagonist in a fantasy setting is the worst kind of overkill. I could see *one* book that worked these themes and it might be passable. At some point, the setting itself has to have more to it to justify that kind of excess.

[Ingmar]

I don't doubt that a good series of books could be written about a leper going crazy in a fantasy world. The problem is in the execution, and Donaldson bends over backwards to make him as unlikeable as possible. The side effect of that is it makes you want to put the books down to get away from him.

[HaemishM]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Covenant isn't INTERESTING - he's just irritating. Every single time I think he's about to have an interesting interaction with a character, he says something so stupid, my eyes cross. I'm almost to the end of the first book (they've just reached Mount Thunder), and the last interesting interaction he's had with a character that didn't end with him saying something Cheney-level dickish is when he raped the teenage girl. I may try to read the first Gap book after this one, or I may just put him to the side and read other interesting stuff like the Foundation trilogy.

[Sky]

read other interesting stuff like the Foundation trilogy.

Yes.

I'm enjoying the Peter Hamilton stuff. The first series takes a book and a half to get going after he sets it up, but it's pretty enjoyable and moves along well.

[Reg]

And yet all of the Covenant books have been continuously in print since they were first published more than 30 years ago.  Not bad for a bunch of uninteresting books about an uninteresting character.  There must be a demand for leper porn I didn't know about.

[Murgos]

And yet all of the Covenant books have been continuously in print since they were first published more than 30 years ago.  Not bad for a bunch of uninteresting books about an uninteresting character.  There must be a demand for leper porn I didn't know about.

And yet again we devolve into the popular != good argument.

[Hindenburg]

There must be a demand for leper porn I didn't know about.

Google image results for that are a bit disappointing.

[Abagadro]

I may try to read the first Gap book after this one, or I may just put him to the side and read other interesting stuff like the Foundation trilogy.

For what it's worth, I didn't like the Covenant books at all but the Gap series is one of my favorites and I've read the whole series three times.  It really doesn't pick up its full steam until the third book* though IMO so if the first book doesn't quite do it for you I wouldn't give up.


* Dark and Hungry God, although apparently the latest reprint combines the first two books into one so this would now be the second book.