Return of the Book Thread

[Johny Cee]

I just read Lovecraft's essay Supernatural Horror in Fiction before reading a book that pulled its selections from the essay: Lovecraft's Favorite Weird Tales. First up is Fall of the House of Usher, I've read it before but it's been a while. If, after reading this book, I'm still in the classic horror mode, I'm going to dive into other works he mentions, starting with the earliest stuff I can find and moving forward through time.

I did sort of the same thing a year or two ago, based on the wiki page.

The King in Yellow by Chambers.  It's basically a bunch of short stories,  really interesting,  but they all have a very similar structure, flavor, and feel.  Not great to read back to back. 

Read Machan's "The Great God Pan", which was a pretty neat short/novella.  Made the mistake of reading something with spoilers,  which kind of ruined some of the impact for me.

Still have Dunsany and Algernon Blackwood kicking around here somewhere, too.  Neither grabbed me that much.  I did like Blackwood's "The Willows",  but the rest of it was meh.

Wasn't impressed with A. Merrit's "The Moon Pool".


Maybe I need to go back and give some of these another shot.

Edit:

It's funny, the author I've probably read the least of Lovecraft's influences is Poe.  Beyond the few obligatory short stories covered in school, I've read very little of him.

Also wanted to mention William Hope Hodgeson.  Lovecraft liked his "The House on the Borderland",  and had some high praise for his The Night Land.

Far future, sun is dying, humanity is stuck in one remaining city and beseiged by cosmic horrors and the corrupted remains of humanity that didn't make it to safety.  It's a mix of scifi, horror, and the occult.  There are a couple places you can find the whole thing online.

Been meaning to read it...  but I find it impossible to read novels online.  John C. Wright has written a couple of long short stories in the setting which were pretty good reads.


Damn Sky,  now I want to order a bunch of books!

[Sky]

For reference, I read the essay in this compilation I got at bargain pricing from B&N (their publishing). This compilation is probably my favorite, though. At least until those savage weeders at the library ( ) get rid of the three outstanding compilations we have. Those three are mostly considered the authoritative versions (and very out of print), our late fiction librarian was a big Lovecraft fan.

[Sheepherder]

Now I have a question that stems from my recent re-reading of The Wheel of Time... Do you guys consider it (at least partially) sci-fi, due to the fact that it seems to be set in the future, and they had advanced technology before the breaking?

It's fantasy.

Also, it's significantly better early in the series I'm finding.

[FatuousTwat]

Also, it's significantly better early in the series I'm finding.

Yeah, I think everyone agrees... At least I personally have never talked to anyone (or even read someone talking about it) that liked the later books more than the earlier ones

[Murgos]

Now I have a question that stems from my recent re-reading of The Wheel of Time... Do you guys consider it (at least partially) sci-fi, due to the fact that it seems to be set in the future, and they had advanced technology before the breaking?

It's fantasy.

Also, it's significantly better early in the series I'm finding.

I'd say it's well above average through book IV.  From book V on it's pretty much a lost cause.  You won't realize it's book V that started the suck until you get to about book VII.

I'm reading Anathema, slowly, and Paper Lion.  Paper Lion is a pretty interesting read (George Plimpton's summer with the Detroit Lions as a QB in the 60's, Alex Karras, Night Train Lane, Earl Morrel and friends).

[Reg]

I actually enjoyed the latest Wheel of Time book. Knowing that he was dying seemed to have made him tighten up his writing in an effort to finish. the series.

[bhodi]

The last 2 books of WoT were good, as good IMO as books 3 and 4 - not as good as 1&2, but good enough. I also did the audiobook format so that could color my judgment.

Finished use of weapons. Didn't like. The two oppositely moving interlaced timestreams with flashbacks were just too much to keep track of and I simply ended up confused. As always, the AI/drones steal the show.

Finished spin. Excellent book, I highly recommend it. I'll hit the sequel up soon even though it's not as good.

Reading a throwaway, "The black sun" by Jack Williamson. So far it's been pretty bad.

[IainC]

So here's kind of an anti-recommendation. You know how sometimes you're in a place with a very limited range of entertainment options in English to choose between? Well recently I found myself in the newsagent/bookstore at Stuttgart station in need of something to read on my ~2 hour trip home. So, as you do, I went through a process of elimination to find the least worst book on the shelf to read on the trip. I've read Dan Brown, Tom Clancy and Michael Crichton, I'm not proud of it but you do what's necessary when the time comes. This time the title that was left after I'd ruled out the entire back catalogues of John Grisham, Jilly Cooper and Maeve Binchy was Seven Ancient Wonders by Matthew Reiily.

My God.

This is quite possibly the most terrible book ever written. Not only is the plot utterly preposterous and full of holes big enough to fly the stealth 747 featured in the book through, not only is the characterisation and dialogue reminiscent of awful fanfic but the actual writing doesn't appear to have been subjected to any kind of editorial process. His descriptions are so poor that he felt the need to supply a sketch map of every location - including relatively featureless rooms - to compensate. It's utter shite from beginning to end.

Here's a sample of the terribad style from a page picked entirely at random. Formatting is as it appears in the book.

[lamaros]

Awesome.

[Merusk]

I admire that you read it at all as I couldn't make it past the first few lines of what you quoted. Holy crap.

he said
just like the time before.

[Tale]

Matthew Reilly is the JK Rowling of illiterate adults. He gets them reading, they tell their friends "I red this its gud", and it snowballs like Harry Potter did among kids. Unlike JK Rowling who seems much nicer, he's always on breakfast TV (same audience) being smug when they need an author's opinion.

[Hindenburg]

Matthew Reilly is the JK Rowling of illiterate adults.

Unfair comparison. Since most kids would read fuck all were it not for her works, it can be said that she actually does some good by creating the possibility that they'll pick reading books as a habit. There's no such excuse for that man. His fingers should be set ablaze.

Not only that, shouting "snape kills dumbledoar" to the fans produced hilarious results.

[Samwise]

Not only that, shouting "snape kills dumbledoar" to the fans produced hilarious results.

NOOOOO!!!!  You bitch!

[lamaros]

Matthew Reilly is the JK Rowling of illiterate adults. He gets them reading, they tell their friends "I red this its gud", and it snowballs like Harry Potter did among kids. Unlike JK Rowling who seems much nicer, he's always on breakfast TV (same audience) being smug when they need an author's opinion.

I'm not sure what the comparison is here, exactly? Are you trying to say JK Rowling is an example of bad (children's) writing? Because you can do a lot, lot, lot worse.

[apocrypha]

I'm not sure what the comparison is here, exactly? Are you trying to say JK Rowling is an example of bad (children's) writing? Because you can do a lot, lot, lot worse.

I disagree. You can do worse than JK Rowling, but I struggle to think of anything a "lot, lot, lot" worse. Her prose is insultingly bad and her stories and characters are incredibly derivative. She's a festering blight on the landscape of children's writing.

The "His Dark Materials" trilogy by Philip Pullman is an example in my opinion of how to write for kids. Fantastic books in all senses. The Book Thief (which I finally finished the other night) by Markus Zusak was aimed at young adults and stands so far above and beyond anything that troglodyte Rowling has ever or will ever write that it's hard to believe they're using the same medium ffs.

Anyway, </bile> 

As I said, finished The Book Thief finally. Took me ages because I found it pretty traumatic and ended up reading about 8 other books in between chapters. It's the story of a young girl in Nazi Germany, narrated by Death - although not the Terry Pratchett Death by any stretch of the imagination but a far more human and less dispassionate creature. It's hard to say much about the story without spoilering it all but the prose is astonishingly good and it's an amazing view from the inside of something that we're usually only seen the outside of. Can't recommend it highly enough, but be prepared to be very upset by it.

I also just found out that Zusak is Australian, which is odd because I seem to be only reading and enjoying Australian authors at the moment - Tim Winton, Peter Carey and now this guy. Very strange.

[IainC]

Try Garth Nix as well if you're into Australian authors writing for kids. His Abhorsen trilogy is pretty good (Sabriel, Lirael and Abhorsen). His other stuff (Ragwitch, The Keys to the Kingdom series can safely be ignored).

[apocrypha]

Nice one, cheers Iain.

I have no idea why Australian writers seem to be resonating with me so much, it's probably just coincidence :)

[FatuousTwat]

It might sound stuck up, but I've never read any of the Harry Potter books, and despise people who act like reading it is something to be proud of.

WOO! YOU READ A BOOK WRITTEN FOR CHILDREN! GOOD FOR YOU.

[apocrypha]

Anyone over the age of 8 who is proud of having read any Harry Potter books is probably borderline illiterate, and therefore I think them reading anything is good. 

[Hindenburg]

It might sound stuck up, but I've never read any of the Harry Potter books or Tolkien works, and despise people who act like reading it is something to be proud of.

I FIFY and concur.

[Ironwood]

We're in a book thread and dissing people proud of reading.

Awesome.

Away and fuck off.

[lamaros]

I'm not sure what the comparison is here, exactly? Are you trying to say JK Rowling is an example of bad (children's) writing? Because you can do a lot, lot, lot worse.

I disagree. You can do worse than JK Rowling, but I struggle to think of anything a "lot, lot, lot" worse. Her prose is insultingly bad and her stories and characters are incredibly derivative. She's a festering blight on the landscape of children's writing.

Have you read all of the books? If so, why, if they're so bad? If not, what are you talking about if you havn't read them all? 

I personally think the first few (really only the first one) are actually pretty good (and compared to the general field of fantasy literature hardly derivative - which is an absurd criteria to judge a book by btw). I think the last one is a travesty and a couple in the middle are just distinctly average. But again, you probably haven't read a lot of children's literature if you think you cannot do far far far worse. Go into a book store and look at the kind of shit that is being marketed at kids these days. Lots of poorly written, patronising, coddling and generally shit stuff. Lots of stuff that is better than Rowling (much better), but no one's making out it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. There is nothing "insultingly bad" in her prose at all. Insultingly Bad is the kind of stuff IanC copied out above.

Anyway, what Ironwood said. If you want to big yourself up because you think you're better than Harry Potter...

What have you been reading by Carey by the way?

(P.S. Inserty witty rejoinder about the quality of Tim Winton's writing v Rowling's here)

[Hindenburg]

Alpha nerds? In a book thread? I'm shocked. Shocked, I tells ya.

[IainC]

Have you read all of the books? If so, why, if they're so bad? If not, what are you talking about if you havn't read them all? 

I personally think the first few (really only the first one) are actually pretty good (and compared to the general field of fantasy literature hardly derivative - which is an absurd criteria to judge a book by btw). I think the last one is a travesty and a couple in the middle are just distinctly average. But again, you probably haven't read a lot of children's literature if you think you cannot do far far far worse. Go into a book store and look at the kind of shit that is being marketed at kids these days. Lots of poorly written, patronising, coddling and generally shit stuff. Lots of stuff that is better than Rowling (much better), but no one's making out it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. There is nothing "insultingly bad" in her prose at all. Insultingly Bad is the kind of stuff IanC copied out above.

The defence for Ms Rowling would like to present exhibit A.

[Ironwood]

Can't.  Stop.  Laughing.

That one really should be in awesome as well as funny pics threads.

Heh.  Really.

[Sky]

And politics:



It's always the secret drug-takers accidental overdose that gets ya.

[apocrypha]

Sorry for the Sir Brucing.. :p

Have you read all of the books? If so, why, if they're so bad? If not, what are you talking about if you havn't read them all? 

Nope, read the first one, thought it was excruciatingly shit, complained a lot at the time to the people who'd badgered me to read it because the writing was so bad. Started reading the 2nd one, again because people kept telling me how awesome it was, got about 20 pages in and thought "this fucking sucks", stopped there.

I personally think the first few (really only the first one) are actually pretty good (and compared to the general field of fantasy literature hardly derivative - which is an absurd criteria to judge a book by btw). I think the last one is a travesty and a couple in the middle are just distinctly average.

Fair enough, I've said many times that the world would be shit if we all liked the same things. I don't have such vitriolic feelings towards Rowling because of taste but because of quality. I detest that she's been held up as the saviour of children's reading etc etc when she's (in my opinion) a very mediocre writer. But then the cult of mediocrity spreads it's wings far further than books...

But again, you probably haven't read a lot of children's literature if you think you cannot do far far far worse. Go into a book store and look at the kind of shit that is being marketed at kids these days. Lots of poorly written, patronising, coddling and generally shit stuff. Lots of stuff that is better than Rowling (much better), but no one's making out it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. There is nothing "insultingly bad" in her prose at all. Insultingly Bad is the kind of stuff IanC copied out above.

Anyway, what Ironwood said. If you want to big yourself up because you think you're better than Harry Potter...

I haven't read a vast amount of children's books recently, no, but I've got 2 friends who are aspiring children's writers (one of which is even published) so it's a topic I've discussed at length many times. Yeah there's a lot of utter shit out there, no argument, but I don't feel that a poor quality baseline is an excuse to celebrate mediocrity.

And I'm not bigging myself up - I think most people are better than Harry Potter, just as most people are better than celebrity "news" stories, reality TV shows and instant ready-meals. Feed people shit and they'll eat shit, but let's stop pretending it's steak.

What have you been reading by Carey by the way?

(P.S. Inserty witty rejoinder about the quality of Tim Winton's writing v Rowling's here)

Hehe, I'm stunned by Winton's writing (in Cloudstreet anyway, all I've read of his so far), I think it's amazing :p  And I've read pretty much everything by Peter Carey I think. I loved His Illegal Self and Theft: A Love Story although I wasn't so keen on My Life As A Fake or The True History of The Kelly Gang. All time faves probably Illywhacker, Bliss and The Unusual Life of Tristan Smith. My grandmother got me into Carey actually, I think she gave me a copy of The Tax Inspector when I was at uni and I was hooked from then on :)

And ROFL @ the naughty horse.. that belongs in the scary picture thread 

[IainC]

You know Louise? Weird, it's a small world.

[Mosesandstick]

Who here's actually read Harry Potter? I agree with Lamaros whole-heartedly, I found the last book so stunningly bad that I was surprised that people were upset the series ended. Having another book like that would make me want to burn my eyes.

[Samwise]

I've read them all and generally agree with Lamaros.  I thought the series peaked with book 3, and slowly went downhill from there.  I kept reading, but by the end of book 7 I was glad it was done.

[NowhereMan]

I read the series and enjoyed it. Actually I stopped after the 3rd book then read the rest when the last one came out. The last book had some really awful bits but the series overall was a fun read and I enjoyed it. I wouldn't say it's the movie equivalent of Meet the Spartans or shit like that, some people may be overstating the bad parts. There's nothing wrong with reading and enjoying Harry Potter even if it isn't particularly fantastic writing the story itself is entertaining enough.

In more recent news I read Look to Windward and fucking loved it. Consider Phlebas was interesting and I'm getting the feeling it was a good idea to start off with but after Windward I really want to get my hands on the rest of the Culture novels. Fucking beautiful stuff.

[Morat20]

Try Garth Nix as well if you're into Australian authors writing for kids. His Abhorsen trilogy is pretty good (Sabriel, Lirael and Abhorsen). His other stuff (Ragwitch, The Keys to the Kingdom series can safely be ignored).

My wife (6/8th grade English & Literature teacher) used the Abhorsen books on one of her more...resistant...readers. (Basically a picky-ass kid who claimed he didn't like reading ANYTHING, avoided touching books, and generally had to be forced to read -- and reading is kind of critical to the ELA curriculum for some reason).

He finished the three of them inside of two weeks, and then hassled his parents into buying the Keys to the Kingdom books so he could read them.

My wife was smug all damn week, since this kid apparently had quite the reputation among his prior ELA teachers. She's promised to replace my Abhorsen trilogy, since the little brat may actually have read on his own for once, but he doesn't know how to treat a damn book.

She's had good luck with Pratchett's Tiffany Aching books as well --- there's a raft of children's literature that, in my opinion, is much better than Harry Potter, but there's not much that's easier to get kids to read -- especially as the first set make pretty good late elementary reading.

For kids, in addition to Nix and the Pratchett book, there's classics like The Dark is Rising sequence, Alexander's Pyrdain chronicles, and if you want Big Damn Book fantasy -- Edding's Belgariad is ideal, since it gives the feel of the more "epic" fantasy books -- multiple lands, multiple characters, extremely long -- but uses rather simple language, very stereotypical characters (and thus easily grasped by people who don't have much reading under their belt), the romance is pretty kid friendly, and has a decent enough sense of humor that keeps it from being too intimidating.

But what's a "good book" comes in two flavors -- shit you like, and shit you can defend on 'literary merits'. But frankly, it's the same goddamn thing. It's "shit you like, and shit you like that you use big words and make excuses for liking".

My real problem with Harry Potter was the last book, wherein she pulled the entire thing from her ass, and it felt like an epic derail from the plot. Then again, "endings that feel like they were stolen from another book" seems to be pretty common among writers. :) Stephenson and Simmons are both fans of the "WTF? Really? You're doing that?" endings.

[lamaros]

Fair enough, I've said many times that the world would be shit if we all liked the same things. I don't have such vitriolic feelings towards Rowling because of taste but because of quality. I detest that she's been held up as the saviour of children's reading etc etc when she's (in my opinion) a very mediocre writer. But then the cult of mediocrity spreads it's wings far further than books...

First you assert that there's no accounting for taste, then you assert that everyone else is wrong and that's she's not a good author because you don't like her. You can't have it both ways! The fact that everyone else doesn't think she's irredeemably shit would tend to indicate that she's not as manifestly mediocre as you suggest. Quality of writing isn't just about a prose style.

Anyway, that's mostly an aside. The real point is that some people hold her up as the saviour of children's writing because of the fact that kids are reading her (which you cannot disagree with, it's blatantly true) and that a lot of these kids are being introduced to and enjoying reading because of her. How far this is the most great and wonderful thing ever we might not all agree (personally I don't think it's as wonderful as many make out), but you must recognize that it's a different conversation that's not limited to the quality of the text.

Hehe, I'm stunned by Winton's writing (in Cloudstreet anyway, all I've read of his so far), I think it's amazing :p  And I've read pretty much everything by Peter Carey I think. I loved His Illegal Self and Theft: A Love Story although I wasn't so keen on My Life As A Fake or The True History of The Kelly Gang. All time faves probably Illywhacker, Bliss and The Unusual Life of Tristan Smith. My grandmother got me into Carey actually, I think she gave me a copy of The Tax Inspector when I was at uni and I was hooked from then on :)

I've never actually finished a Winton book, so I'm not sure how valid my dislike is. Any attempt to start one has usually failed within pages. I just cannot stand the writing, it's painful... Funny image of your grandmother recommending The Tax Inspector. I don't mind Carey but sometimes think his novels have a bit too much of a 'professional writer' sheen to them. I think his short stories can be pretty good from what I remember though, so check them out if you haven't already.

Most of my recent and future reading is on/going to be on literary theory and Lowry, so I don't think anyone here is likely to be much interested. Re-read parts of Invisible Cities the other day though. Golly it's good.

[MahrinSkel]

I read them all (the Harry Potter series).  Like it or not, it's going to define an entire generation's view of Fantasy, so get used to wands and flying sports becoming as much a standard trope as pointy-eared elves and bearded dwarven women.  I started with the third, and thought that one and the second to last were the best of the series.  I thought she did a good job of maturing the theme and characters, but the main plot-arc was always a bit ragged and she resorted to Macguffins way too often.

--Dave

[Quinton]

In more recent news I read Look to Windward and fucking loved it. Consider Phlebas was interesting and I'm getting the feeling it was a good idea to start off with but after Windward I really want to get my hands on the rest of the Culture novels. Fucking beautiful stuff.

You've taken care of the bookends!  Now there's a lot of fun stuff in between them.  The Idiran war will keep cropping up throughout, in passing, as something that was a catalyst for a lot of assorted things.