Return of the Book Thread

[JWIV]

Just finally got around to reading this - Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.    She definitely needed a better editor, but I'm glad I finally read it.

I bought it about 8 years ago on the advice of someone I worked with at the time. It has been sitting on my shelf ever since, gathering dust and annoying me. I can't bring myself to spend the time when there are so many other good books I have yet to read.

Oh, it annoyed the piss out of me.  But I do think it's an important read - especially as much of the business world is influenced by Objectivist considerations,  especially the tech sector.   Tech geeks seem to love the emphasis of 'rational thought' and laisez faire capitalism.   

[Tebonas]

Hmm, most real tech geeks I know don't give a fuck about capitalism. Thats why every Wozniak needs a Jobs to tell him when his work is good enough (instead of the perfection they aspire to) and can be sold.

For me Ayn Rands main characters are mostly Sociopaths. They just work in her books because Society is the enemy.

[Viin]

I thought tech geeks were Socialists?

Anyways, just finished the first two books of the Camulod Chronicals, which is a .. let's say, historical (very) fiction .. version of the Author story. The first two books start off with the beginning of the end of Roman empire, with the grandparents of "Uther" and "Merlyn". The grandparents are Roman military who settle in Britain and prepare for the withdrawal of the Roman army, and basically build Camelot (Camulod) and in the process the main character (a smith) creates Excalibur.

Very good books and an interesting story. Uther Pendragon and Caius Merlyn Britannicus are born at the very end of the second book, so we haven't even gotten to their stories yet.

Edit: I believe these books were originally mentioned in this thread, so thanks to whoever brought them up! I had put them on my Christmas wishlist and ended up with the first 3 books as presents.

[Oban]

Just finished World War Z and am rather bummed that I read it so quickly.

Any suggestions for something similar other than the Zombie Survival Guide?  I have not read a "last man on earth" book in some time and really yearn to read more of the genre.

[Johny Cee]

My interpretation of hero and villian was probably skewed here since every personality test I've taken puts me down as a strict authoritarian.

Meh, the villain was the corporate group of psuedo-anarchists/ultra-capitalists.  They were simply trying to profit from the removal of order.  The guardships/canon were morally a little grey, but certainly not evil - lawful neutral at worst, and though Kez was put in the 'good guy' position he was actually working counter to his beliefs until near the end of the story.

There was no villain, beyond the methane breathers.

Canon law and the guardships were sort of a benevolent authoritarian regime,  which reacted in the most violent manner to any upset of their laws.  This was leading humanity down a path of stagnation. 

The Tregressars were greedy assholes,  but they also were the only section of humanity still growing and progressing.

Kez was walking the knife edge of loosening the grip of the tyrannical guardships,  but also not creating a vacuum of power so that another group could just step in.

[Murgos]

See, I saw the methane breathers as just alien.  As in there is no real correlation between us and them other than species survival.  Fair enough, I say.

The Tregressars were attempting to destroy or deblilitate Canon and the Guardships enough that they could do whatever they wanted, mostly profit, regardless of the fact that doing so would open up the known universe to strife, discord, anarchy and etc...  The fact that they were rational and doing so fully aware fo the eventual outcome of their actions was what made them consciously evil.

[HaemishM]

Just finally got around to reading this - Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.    She definitely needed a better editor, but I'm glad I finally read it.

I read this at a time when I was SERIOUSLY depressed and needed a kick in the ass to get my life back on track, and it did that, mostly through shame and self-loathing. As I've gotten older and read more about her philosophy, Jesus Criminy that cunt had some serious daddy issues. She also needed to shut her goddamn spewhole.

EDIT: And on the Erikson book, I'm about 100 pages into Garden of the Moon, and fucking loving it. I have no idea what's going on it most of it, but goddamn is it deeply thought out. The author gives you just enough knowledge to get by as the story progresses. Fantastic.

[Johny Cee]

See, I saw the methane breathers as just alien.  As in there is no real correlation between us and them other than species survival.  Fair enough, I say.

Interesting point.

The Tregressars were attempting to destroy or deblilitate Canon and the Guardships enough that they could do whatever they wanted, mostly profit, regardless of the fact that doing so would open up the known universe to strife, discord, anarchy and etc...  The fact that they were rational and doing so fully aware fo the eventual outcome of their actions was what made them consciously evil.

Yes.  It's classic security vs. freedom.

[lamaros]

I have only been able to read uni stuff of late unfortunatly, but I did enjoy the Mishima short stories. "Death In Midsummer" is awesome.

Looking forward to the holidays so I can read some of the stuff piling up on my shelves. Mostly the Eco, but a bit of easy fantasy/sf/crime stuff would be nice too.

[murdoc]

I thought tech geeks were Socialists?

Anyways, just finished the first two books of the Camulod Chronicals, which is a .. let's say, historical (very) fiction .. version of the Author story. The first two books start off with the beginning of the end of Roman empire, with the grandparents of "Uther" and "Merlyn". The grandparents are Roman military who settle in Britain and prepare for the withdrawal of the Roman army, and basically build Camelot (Camulod) and in the process the main character (a smith) creates Excalibur.

Very good books and an interesting story. Uther Pendragon and Caius Merlyn Britannicus are born at the very end of the second book, so we haven't even gotten to their stories yet.

Edit: I believe these books were originally mentioned in this thread, so thanks to whoever brought them up! I had put them on my Christmas wishlist and ended up with the first 3 books as presents.

The Jack Whyte books? Great reads imo. I'm typically not a fan of 'historical fiction' but I had a tough time putting those books down. Really enjoyed them.

Currently reading 'Wolf in Shadow' by David Gemmell. Actually quite enjoying it, but I kind of dig the whole apocolyptic Gunslinger sort of thing (Thanks Steven King).

[Viin]

The Jack Whyte books? Great reads imo. I'm typically not a fan of 'historical fiction' but I had a tough time putting those books down. Really enjoyed them.

Currently reading 'Wolf in Shadow' by David Gemmell. Actually quite enjoying it, but I kind of dig the whole apocolyptic Gunslinger sort of thing (Thanks Steven King).

Those are them. I need to finish The Dark Tower books.. keep meaning to, but they are painful to read. I mean, how many crappy, soul wrenching, physically mutilating situations can a guy get into!?

Anyways, currently reading the books in the Dredsen Files series, on book 2. If you like modern-day stories with wizards, detectives, and a little confusion on who are the bad guys and who are the good guys - check 'em out. I hear the SciFi TV series isn't that bad either.

[Johny Cee]

Currently reading 'Wolf in Shadow' by David Gemmell. Actually quite enjoying it, but I kind of dig the whole apocolyptic Gunslinger sort of thing (Thanks Steven King).

Gemmel writes very good actiony entertainment fantasy.  Most of his Drenai books are pretty good reads.


I finally managed to find my copy of System of the World and finished it 9 months after I read the other two.  Thinking about picking up some more Stephenson but I just have the cyberpunk books to read and I'm kind of meh about cyberpunk.

David Gunn's follow up to Death's Head is out now.  Big step down from the first book,  which was pure amoral action scifi fun.

Glen Cook has a new Garrett book out next week,  which I'm looking forward to.

Finishing Krugman's Conscience of a Liberal. 

Have a pile of harder to read stuff that I've been putting off from the various Post Modern/New Wierd schools of scifi-fantasy (Vandermeer, Hal Duncan's Ink, etc.)

File in the bizarre column:

Steven Brust wrote a "Firefly" (the Whedon TV show) novel he's distributing for free from his website here:

http://dreamcafe.com/firefly.html

I'm kind of curious to see what professionally written fan fiction will look like.

[Abagadro]

Thinking about picking up some more Stephenson but I just have the cyberpunk books to read and I'm kind of meh about cyberpunk.

Cryptonomicon is good and non-cyberpunk. Its been a long while since I've read it, but I don't remember Diamond Age being nearly as "cyberpunky" as Snow Crash and really enjoying it.

[Morat20]

Thinking about picking up some more Stephenson but I just have the cyberpunk books to read and I'm kind of meh about cyberpunk.

Cryptonomicon is good and non-cyberpunk. Its been a long while since I've read it, but I don't remember Diamond Age being nearly as "cyberpunky" as Snow Crash and really enjoying it.

Diamond Age was kind of post-cyberpunk. A great deal of scarcity problems had been eradicated, and really what you were left with was an almost infinite number of competing ways of organizing a society and rewarding the few human activities that couldn't be done by machine.

[Johny Cee]

Thinking about picking up some more Stephenson but I just have the cyberpunk books to read and I'm kind of meh about cyberpunk.

Cryptonomicon is good and non-cyberpunk. Its been a long while since I've read it, but I don't remember Diamond Age being nearly as "cyberpunky" as Snow Crash and really enjoying it.

Yah, I've read Cryptonomicon.  Just have Diamond Age and Snow Crash left of his stuff.

[WayAbvPar]

The only other modern-day Stephenson novel I can think of off the top of my head is Zodiac (which was decent, but felt more like a well researched and well written Crichton novel than classic Stephenson to me). He also did a couple of collaborations with some other dude that may have been set in moden day (haven't heard much about them).

[HaemishM]

Interface by Steven Bury is actually a Stephenson-book, Bury being the pen name of him and his uncle. It's a REALLY good book about a Presidential candidate with an instant polling machine in his brain. It was really pretty damn good.

Huh, apparently they aren't listing it under Bury anymore, just actually saying it's Stephenson and George.

[Morfiend]

I just finished the latest Dresden book. Pretty much junkfood reading, but man can he keep you glued to a book till its done.

I started a new book called Lonely Warewolf Girl, It should have been titled Emo Girl or some shit. I am 30 pages in and I want to strangle the main character. I am going to give it about 70 more pages before I throw it away.

[Johny Cee]

File in the bizarre column:

Steven Brust wrote a "Firefly" (the Whedon TV show) novel he's distributing for free from his website here:

http://dreamcafe.com/firefly.html

I'm kind of curious to see what professionally written fan fiction will look like.

New Vlad book scheduled to be out July 8, for those interested, so I feel less grumpy at Brust for the fucking fan-fiction.

New John C. Wright book,  based on A.E. van Vogt's work, set for a release in two weeks.

[WayAbvPar]

Yay!  me some Vlad. I might even read the fanfic. I dig that universe and Brust. Two tastes that taste great together?

[Johny Cee]

Just finally got around to reading this - Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.    She definitely needed a better editor, but I'm glad I finally read it.

I bought it about 8 years ago on the advice of someone I worked with at the time. It has been sitting on my shelf ever since, gathering dust and annoying me. I can't bring myself to spend the time when there are so many other good books I have yet to read.

Oh, it annoyed the piss out of me.  But I do think it's an important read - especially as much of the business world is influenced by Objectivist considerations,  especially the tech sector.   Tech geeks seem to love the emphasis of 'rational thought' and laisez faire capitalism.   

I've never read Rand, but...

The problem is that Rand is really just novelized and simplified libertarian/classical liberal philosophy with a specific created scenario to show how she's the only one that knows the Truth.  If you're going to read something like that,  why not read Heinlein,  who will at least turn around and take the piss out of the scenario in a later work.  For instance,  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is basically a scifi novel about setting up a Libertarian/Utopian Anarchist society.  One of the later Lazarus novels returns to the moon at a much later point,  where the system has been corrupted and turned into a backwards collection of petty fiefdoms.

I dislike parts of Richard K. Morgan's books for precisely this reason: he creates his worlds to show how his political beliefs are correct.  He gets a pass because he writes damn fun action and comes up with some great concepts.

If you have an interest to at least read something related to the topic,  Hayek's Constitution of Liberty or Road to Serfdom are much better reading for that purpose.  Hell,  even something like Freakonomics or the Undercover Economist, in their emphasis on matching up rational economic systems with empirical data.

[Morat20]

I've never read Rand, but...

The problem is that Rand is really just novelized and simplified libertarian/classical liberal philosophy with a specific created scenario to show how she's the only one that knows the Truth.  If you're going to read something like that,  why not read Heinlein,  who will at least turn around and take the piss out of the scenario in a later work.  For instance,  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is basically a scifi novel about setting up a Libertarian/Utopian Anarchist society.  One of the later Lazarus novels returns to the moon at a much later point,  where the system has been corrupted and turned into a backwards collection of petty fiefdoms.

I dislike parts of Richard K. Morgan's books for precisely this reason: he creates his worlds to show how his political beliefs are correct.  He gets a pass because he writes damn fun action and comes up with some great concepts.

If you have an interest to at least read something related to the topic,  Hayek's Constitution of Liberty or Road to Serfdom are much better reading for that purpose.  Hell,  even something like Freakonomics or the Undercover Economist, in their emphasis on matching up rational economic systems with empirical data.

I think you're giving Rand too much credit. My basic read of her is as follows: She HATED communism. She felt that communism was, in fact, the worst possible thing EVER. It was basically the definition of "bad". She then reasoned that the opposite of communism must, in fact, be the very definition of good.

So she invented an entire philosophy that was, basically, "The Opposite of Communism". There were some problems along the way -- she really didn't have a good grasp on communism or socialism, for one, which made "Opposite Day" in her head occasionally weird, and she was so wedded to the notion that communism was completely and utterly wrong on EVERYTHING that if a communist said "The Sky is blue" Objectivism would make it a tenet of reason that the sky was, in fact, a nice shade of red.

In short, she didn't really shoot for logical coherence or a rational philosophy. She just played opposite day with someone else's philosophy.

[HaemishM]

What I find funny about Rand is the predictions she made in Atlas Shrugged, about the railroads grinding to a halt and infrastructure collapsing. It seems so reminiscent of the things that have happened lately, with the bridge collapsing in Minnesota, the blackouts in California and the East Coast. In her story, those happened because the objectivist thinkers left the world and the "lazy workers" fucked off. In reality, it's happened because objectivist retards who think they are the elites have fucked everything up! YAY OBJECTIVISTS!

[Murgos]

What I find funny about Rand is the predictions she made in Atlas Shrugged, about the railroads grinding to a halt and infrastructure collapsing. It seems so reminiscent of the things that have happened lately, with the bridge collapsing in Minnesota, the blackouts in California and the East Coast. In her story, those happened because the objectivist thinkers left the world and the "lazy workers" fucked off. In reality, it's happened because objectivist retards who think they are the elites have fucked everything up! YAY OBJECTIVISTS!

In reality it happened because it fucking expensive to maintain bridges and so the work gets put off as long as possible and that no one wants to build new power plants.

Blame quasi-philosophical points of view if you want but it has nothing to do with it either way.

[Sky]

Blame quasi-philosophical points of view if you want but it has nothing to do with it either way.

This is actually my theory of everything.

[HRose]

In reality it happened because it fucking expensive to maintain bridges and so the work gets put off as long as possible and that no one wants to build new power plants.

Blame quasi-philosophical points of view if you want but it has nothing to do with it either way.

Then it goes back to communism. The idea that not everything works well if driven as a business to turn profit. Like health care, security and so on.

Some things need to be dealt by the state and kept in a good condition even if it's not profitable.

[Abagadro]

As a former hard-core Randian who has completely rejected her sociopolitical nonsense, I will just say this:

Fountainhead=good

Atlas Shrugged=ass

[HaemishM]

Fountainhead=good

Atlas Shrugged=ass

To be fair, the only difference between the two is character names and about 300 pages.

[Murgos]

In reality it happened because it fucking expensive to maintain bridges and so the work gets put off as long as possible and that no one wants to build new power plants.

Blame quasi-philosophical points of view if you want but it has nothing to do with it either way.

Then it goes back to communism. The idea that not everything works well if driven as a business to turn profit. Like health care, security and so on.

Some things need to be dealt by the state and kept in a good condition even if it's not profitable.

Right, Soviet Russia was and Communist China is well known for their pristine roads and public works projects. 

Even in a communist society labor and materials have a resource scarcity cost.  There is almost always something else to spend the time on that is more urgent that a bridge that has been fine for 50 years.

[Abagadro]

Fountainhead=good

Atlas Shrugged=ass

To be fair, the only difference between the two is character names and about 300 pages.

I disagree with that but don't care enough about the topic to devote time discussing it.

[naum]

Fountainhead=good

Atlas Shrugged=ass

To be fair, the only difference between the two is character names and about 300 pages.

Eh, Fountainhead is more true story. Atlas Shrugged is comprised in large parts of philosophic rants on the virtue of selfishness. Granted, the theme that was just above subtle in Fountainhead clobbers you over the head in Atlas Shrugged.

That said, I used to be Objectivist Kool-Aid drinker back in college days — in fact, I think one time I even etched "A is A" across a wall. I read all of her non-fiction books and for a while, totally bought into it. For Rand, things are 100% black and white, and given her upbringing, it's not surprising she would possess that type of outlook. Capitalists and bankers do no wrong, politicians (who were often just paid for pawns of powerful men) are complete 100% parasites. Reality is a bit more nuanced (and I would repeat the same message to leftists that want to blame the "big bad oil companies", etc.…), and once one becomes immersed in enough reading and history, any doctrine that resides in extremist "they're 100% bad", "this is 100% good" is delusional, and in that way, lies madness, as they say…

But talk about "clinging" and "bitterness" — and that is the inevitable result of the practice of selfishness she advocated. Her (and followers) life towards the end, was one of a paranoid bitter recluse. And while I don't want to get into religion here, she never grasped that if you want to be happy, you should pursue OTHER people’s happiness. You should do good things for others. It’s a paradox, but it works. Being unselfish leads to selfish fulfillment.

[JWIV]

I've never read Rand, but...

The problem is that Rand is really just novelized and simplified libertarian/classical liberal philosophy with a specific created scenario to show how she's the only one that knows the Truth.  If you're going to read something like that,  why not read Heinlein,  who will at least turn around and take the piss out of the scenario in a later work.  For instance,  The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is basically a scifi novel about setting up a Libertarian/Utopian Anarchist society.  One of the later Lazarus novels returns to the moon at a much later point,  where the system has been corrupted and turned into a backwards collection of petty fiefdoms.

I dislike parts of Richard K. Morgan's books for precisely this reason: he creates his worlds to show how his political beliefs are correct.  He gets a pass because he writes damn fun action and comes up with some great concepts.

If you have an interest to at least read something related to the topic,  Hayek's Constitution of Liberty or Road to Serfdom are much better reading for that purpose.  Hell,  even something like Freakonomics or the Undercover Economist, in their emphasis on matching up rational economic systems with empirical data.

What makes you think I haven't read Heinlein?  I  read Atlas Shrugged because I hadn't read it, and it's usually gets mentioned as being more than a little important.   Freakonomics I certainly enjoyed and I think his study of the impact of incentives and how they can backfire is more than worth the price of the book. 

I've heard good things about the Undercover Economist, so I'll have to file that one for future reading.   Though I think for my next real book (gotta split up the Horus Heresy fluff) is probably going to be going back and finishing Philip Bobbitt's Shield of Achilles.

[Johny Cee]

So,  for your reading pleasure:

http://hradzka.livejournal.com/194753.html

OH JOHN RINGO NO.

It's a review of a series by John Ringo,  a guy who writes various military scifi fiction, who seems to have taken a bizarre turn into "this guy needs professional help" land.

[Mazakiel]

Man, that is some hilariously fucked up stuff there.  I need to see if the library has a copy of one of those I can skim through. 

[Margalis]

I'm not a big fan of explicitly ideological fiction in general. If you want to moralize and preach just do it, no need to pretend you have a story to tell.