Vanguard

[Alkiera]

I keep seeing Vanguard in SPT's posts, and a friend of mine kept mentioning it.  I went poking around for info, and found there really isn't a whole lot out there.  The one thing I did find, was a collection of posts by an accountant working for Sigil, who has permission to talk about his beta experiences.  You can find his collected posts here: The Book of Oloh.

After reading that, I'm much more interested in the game.  Looks to be the most interesting combat system in an MMO yet... Some similarities to DDO's, but less twitchy, more strategery.  Most of the stuff is about a warrior, as that's the author's primary character, tho there is some info on magic-users in there too.  It all looks very good.

I still have some concerns about the game;  namely, is the combat engine enough to avoid The Grind.  Does Character development occur at a frequent enough rate to prevent boredom.  Is soloing seriously an option for all characters, both numbers-wise and content-wise.  What about the other parts of the game, crafting, the 'diplomacy' thing, quests and whatnot.  Oloh's stuff doesn't really answer these questions.

Alkiera

[Merusk]

Someone with more time than I have to spare right now please Educate Alkeria for his own good. Thanks.

[Shockeye]

Read and learn.

[HaemishM]

Some short answers:

I still have some concerns about the game;  namely, is the combat engine enough to avoid The Grind. 

It's McQuaid's baby. The Grind IS the game. Remember EQ1? That wasn't hardcore enough.

Does Character development occur at a frequent enough rate to prevent boredom. 

See above.

Is soloing seriously an option for all characters, both numbers-wise and content-wise. 

Remember EQ1? Yeah, that's it.

What about the other parts of the game, crafting, the 'diplomacy' thing, quests and whatnot. 

Crafting will be useless and shiney upon release, or broken yet working as intended. Diplomacy? Either it won't work, or think of something like EQ2's crafting mini-game. Quests? I'm sure they'll have a lot of them, many of which will involve killing a bazillion of one thing, or waiting for the uber rare spawn to pop up once every 3rd new moon, only to be killed by the meth-addicted monkey whose been sitting waiting for that spawn since its last appearance before you ever get a swing off.

[Shockeye]

Actually HRose has written some things about Vanguard. I didn't really read them because that would mean reading HRose's site, but you're more than welcome to poke around.

The cesspit

[HaemishM]

Now why you want to go and do a thing like link to that site?

[Ironwood]

Now why you want to go and do a thing like link to that site?

Some of hrose's ideas are good, but you don't get the essence of them unless you read them in the original Klingon.

[HRose]

Well, I haven't written much about Vanguard if not to repeat that all we know about it is just fluff and hype.

In particular the combat system described by that Oloh.

[Shockeye]

Now why you want to go and do a thing like link to that site?

It's Christmas.

[HaemishM]

You're starting the Festivus Airing of Grievances early then.

[Signe]

HRose says lovely things about f13 on his site.  Don't be mean... he just want's to play! 

I'll give Vanguard a go in much the same way I give everything a go.  From McQuaid's own words in several interviews, however, it might be just a bit too group-centric for me.  I like playing in a group but I don't always have the time or inclination to spend an hour or so finding one, figuring what we're going to do and making plans.  Most times I just want to get in, play for an hour or so and log off.  If I'm in a nice, big active guild it doesn't matter so much as there's usually a group to be had. 

The rocks in that game still frighten me, too.

[Soln]

Vanguard, Festivus, Feats of Strength

discuss

[Shockeye]

Vanguard, Festivus, Feats of Strength

discuss

You'll get your Festivus celebration stuff soon enough. Now if you don't mind, I need to go debuff a tree.

[Yegolev]

I'll give Vanguard a go in much the same way I give everything a go.

I dig chicks with low standards.  That's my bag, baby.

I actually have a prediction about Vanguard, assuming it isn't vapor.  I predict that the raiding will start very early: after hitting level three, you will be required to form a pickup raid with thirty other newbs to take down a boss rat.

[Xilren's Twin]

Read and learn.

Don't Forget This, where Brad holds forth on some of his personal design philosphies...

Xilren

[Alkiera]

Alright, so... nothing new, and no one knows any more than I do.  That's pretty much what I wanted to know.

Yeah, Haemish, I played EQ for 5 years, and I know who Brad is.  Given the state of EQ2, it's obvious those left at SOE were not the reason EQ did so well.  In fact, most of my problems with EQ started right around the time he left.  Admittedly, I liked a few changes that occured after he left, but for the most part, expansions after that point were terrible from my standpoint.  So much designed around pleasing the FoH crowd, widening the gap between the uberguild and the casual.  I'm curious what he'll design, given the chance to do it all again.  The FAQ for the game seems to have some pretty nice ideas for dealing with some of the issues we all hate in MMOs, the grind, etc.  I left EQ because I'd finished it, gotten as far as I could without huge time consuming raids.  heck, I even did some raiding...  I just got bored of it.  Unlike you, I didn't leave angry, just bored.  I'm willing to give him another chance.


Also, having visited cesspit.net,  I feel that HRose is not terribly familiar with PnP D&D.  The whole point of DDO is to transition the PnP experience to online.  IMO, it's a faithful transition... and also, a blast.

Simply put, its a really really boring single player game.

If you're trying to play it single player... that's probably part of the problem.  The game is designed as a party experience.  From it's origins as a ruleset for miniatures combat, it's the collection of different classes that provide interesting situations.  Like running thru a warehouse with 3 subtle thieves sneaking around... followed by a loud, metal-armor clad, entirely non-subtle cleric.  Things would hear me coming, miss the rogues entirely... until they felt the dagger in the back.  Good times.

Alkiera

[Venkman]

Therein lies the rub. If a game is not at all fun alone, then it will have a narrower appeal than one that is. That's fine, of course, as long as your budget can support 100k-200k consistent subscriptions. It's not fine if you want to expand the market though. It's also of questionable validity with Microsoft publishing it. Does anyone think they really want another AC1 in a genre of EQs and WoWs?

I like Brad's thinking, having read his stuff for years. But it's mostly because he knows the exact demographic he wants to attract. Success comes from giving your players what they want, particularly when they didn't know they wanted it. It doesn't matter to me that I'm not in that demographic in the least. I only question whether it's big enough.

And I'd love to know how he knows WoW cost $75mil to make. I've heard that, and $84mil. I can also imagine why the game cost that much. But I haven't yet seen any valid source for the numbers, so its hard to know if WoW really cost three times as much as EQ2 to make (which SOE themselves reported as costing around $25mil).

[Signe]

I'll give Vanguard a go in much the same way I give everything a go.

I dig chicks with low standards.  That's my bag, baby.

I wouldn't give you a go, you know.

[SuperPopTart]

I'll try Vanguard.

I probably will not play it long after I try it.

I am getting more and more tired of gaming as the days go on. I lose hope and the recommendations of fanboi01's do nothing for me.

P.S.:

For the most part, Alkiera, I have given up on Vanguard being anything then what it is appearing to be. EQ the Sequel. Although once a fan of what it could be, I have put down the torch. I currently have reinstalled DAoC and am playing that again on a 14 day trial.

[El Gallo]

I am fairly sympathetic to McQuaid.  I think SWG and EQ2 demonstrate that he was the person in SoE with real talent and vision.  I think he does a great job at creating atmosphere -- WoW is the only game close to EQ in this department, and that's a big part of why they are the two dominant games in the genre.  I look forward to seeing what kind of atmosphere he can create with the tools and money now at his disposal.

I also am more sympathetic to PvE and PvE-raid oriented content than most people here.  I like raiding if the raids are fun, don't require obscene amounts of time, and I am not guilded with assholes. What I won't ever put up with again, however, is standing in line with my dick in my hand because there isn't anything worthwhile to fight, everything having been killed by people who play earlier in the day or more advanced guilds or whatever.  Never.  Again.  Will.  I.  Pay.  Money.  For.  That.

McQuaid's irrational fear of instancing will probably lead to exactly that.  He says that they'll have so much content that it won't matter.  But that would take more than 10x the content WoW has, and VG is projected (by McQuaid) to have less than 1/10th the subscription income WoW has.  Even taking Blizzard's slowness into account, the math just doesn't add up.  So I imagine we'll see lines, or lots of SWG/LDoN-style modular crap content.  Neither of which I'll pay for. 

The third option is that they'll just use their "Advanced Encounter System" (read: instancing but inferior in every respect) to institute de facto instancing for most/all raid targets.  That might be enough to make the endgame work for me.

The other thing that scares me is that the combat mechanics positively reek of Everquest II.

[Alkiera]

The other thing that scares me is that the combat mechanics positively reek of Everquest II.

EQ2?  Hrm.  If anything, I'd most compare them to maybe WoW.  WoW is the only live game I know of that treats certain specials as 'part of your next swing' instead of making it a completely seperate thing from autoattack(like a WoW rogue's instants), or having it's own damage/delay and having it interrupt autoattack (like other WoW melee specials, and all EQ2 specials).

The only thing they have that is anything like EQ2 is the chain/group chain system...  and DAoC has had chains forever, FFXI has renraku or whatever... Apparently the EQ2 Heroic opportunity system came from some notes Brad left behind, or the memory of another dev after he left;  they took what they had and the result was Heroic Opportunities, which started out only semi useful, and haven't really gotten any better since, only easier to perform.  They didn't really make any sense, half of them, anyway.

Really, in my own thoughts, I've always thought combat needed to be slowed down to be made more interesting.  We complain about lack of active defenses in MMO combat, but with all the issues regarding 'twitch'(both technical and personal), to do that you have to slow down combat some.  Give the player time to see what their opponent is going to do, and some way to counter that.  Then, combat between two skilled players looks like combat between two skilled fighters... swing, parry, swing, parry, swing, parry, etc, with increasingly impressive attacks and parries.  Not the current system of have all defenses be automagical, and anything that doesn't work for, I just suck up and drink a potion to cure.  It's one way out of the competeing bags of hitpoints model.  It allows things to be more like Bushido Blade, and less like a dikumud.

Alkiera

[WayAbvPar]

Then, combat between two skilled players looks like combat between two skilled fighters... swing, parry, swing, parry, swing, parry, etc, with increasingly impressive attacks and parries.

Agreed. Something like and enhanced version of Mount & Blade's combat system would get my money in a big fat fucking hurry.

[Megrim]

Now why you want to go and do a thing like link to that site?

Some of hrose's ideas are good, but you don't get the essence of them unless you read them in the original Klingon.

I was eating yoghurt. I now have a yoghurt flavoured monitor. Thank you.

[schild]

What the fuck is yoghurt?

[HRose]

What the fuck is yoghurt?

Wimin-only aliment.

[schild]

Ok, someone's playing a joke on me.

[El Gallo]

Bah, no fair to pick on only the last, throwaway line!  Anyway, there are two main things that reminded me of EQ2.  First are the HOs, which are close to the stupidest, least immersive thing I've ever seen.  But even aside from the HOs themselves, VG combat from that writeup sounds a lot like EQ2's HO system and exactly like EQ2's tradeskill system.  Icons flash up and you click the button of the corresponding counter-icon.  I'm not paying $15/mo to play Simon.  More precisely, I am aware of the fact that all games ultimately reduce to this, but you need to do a much, much better job of hiding it than VG's system sounds like it will do.  EQ and WoW are all about hiding the "gamey" mechanics in a way that makes you feel like you are in a world.  This is too nakedly "gamey".

There is also the "we'll have a ton of classes that fulfill the same role with identical efficiency but they'll be different I promise" which either leads to sameness (no actual difference) or stupidity (they struggle to add 4 ways of healing that feel different that standard healing, 3 of which feel really really stupid) and (because of the Simon combat system) everyone will have a quadrillion abilities with stupid names that do the same damn thing for icon-matching purposes rather than a much smaller number more interesting abilities.

Anyway, I obviously haven't played the game and I am very eager to try it out.  I hope I'm wrong about the things I fear, or at least that the goodies will make up for them.

Really, in my own thoughts, I've always thought combat needed to be slowed down to be made more interesting.

Totally agree, but I fear VG will be a step towards the consolization of MMO combat rather than a step in that direction.

[schild]

I would have no problem with the consolization of MMOG combat if it were more like Zelda, Soul Caliber, or even ICO. Hell, I'm trying to invision a way in which the consolization would be bad. And I can't. MMOG combat is just that weak.

[Alkiera]

I would have no problem with the consolization of MMOG combat if it were more like Zelda, Soul Caliber, or even ICO. Hell, I'm trying to invision a way in which the consolization would be bad. And I can't. MMOG combat is just that weak.

You should love DDO then.

Alkiera

[El Gallo]

I should not have used the c-word, it will derail this thread into threads we've had before.  Replace it with "mindless button mashing."

[schild]

I would have no problem with the consolization of MMOG combat if it were more like Zelda, Soul Caliber, or even ICO. Hell, I'm trying to invision a way in which the consolization would be bad. And I can't. MMOG combat is just that weak.

You should love DDO then.

I shoudl not have used the c-word, it will derail this thread into threads we've had before.  Replace it with "mindless button mashing."

Wait, there's something new to say about MMOGs? Damn, I've lost the pulse of online gaming.

[El Gallo]

They always quote your typos.  Remember kids, use spell check!

[Soukyan]

I would have no problem with the consolization of MMOG combat if it were more like Zelda, Soul Caliber, or even ICO. Hell, I'm trying to invision a way in which the consolization would be bad. And I can't. MMOG combat is just that weak.

You should love DDO then.

Alkiera

/agree

[Sunbury]

Is everyone forgetting about:
  Server Lag
  Client Lag
  Internet Lag
  Packet Loss
  Client/Server getting out of sync due to above?

Magically developers can 'code around' these problems?

The more twich added to MMOGs the more the above makes the game 'unplayable'  on 'bad' days.

That's one reason I'm a wand addict in WoW with my priest, warlock, (and somewhat less) mage.   The auto-attack wand works fine even when all the above problems are happening on a bad day.   If my character 'lags' (all above) for 15 secs, the system remembers I was wanding, and bam, when lag clears the mob is dead.   If I was casting one at a time, when lag clears, it discarded all my casts (I couldn't even initiate them) and bam, my char is dead.

Same reason I didn't like playing a caster in AC1, it was way too lag sensitive.   Melee wasn't.

DDO plays great when everything is smooth, as soon as 'lag' hits, someone normaly ends up dead.

[Venkman]

That's all the reasons why people are focusing on 5-6 person experiences. Contrived linear consumable adventures can feature realtime combat though. Maybe Raiding too. On a good day. But this is just about PvE. It works because all of the targets are programmed against a lower common denominator.

PvP is different because both targets are reliant on duplicate technical issues. With PvE, it's all one sided.