What do you do and where?

[Cheddar]

I am going to be doing "special assignments" for a few weeks then hopefully getting promoted to suit.  Ironically, the person who got the previous position I mentioned was just suspended for 2 weeks after an investigation was ran.   


Of course this all means my hours will be 3-midnight, but whatyagonnado.

[Wolf]

I need Internet advice.

I have a new job offer. Basically it comes down to this:

I can work for one of the biggest companies in the country, doing something I love and being part of pioneering, in my country, something I find fascinating. I will work for a boss that I will most likely hate surrounded by people that are at best incompetent. I will get about a third more money, have a scheduled increase every 3 months and pretty decent benefits, but I will have to commute for about three hours each day.

Or I can stay at my current place in a small company, doing stuff that's at best trivial, holding out for some big and relatively interesting thing that's about an year, an year and a half in the future. I work for a boss that I fucking love, with competent people I really, really like. I will get about a third less money, with uncertain increase and shitty benefits but will have more time do shit for myself and can get here in about twenty minutes from my home.

I'm 24, so I'm really not thinking about shit like family, owning a house, whateverthefuck. Wisdom please.

edit: How's that for a 666th post. A fucking omen.

[lamaros]

Why are you assuming this "pioneering" project will be full of people who are incompetent and unlikable?

[Tebonas]

Depends on your goals in life Wolf. If you define yourself via your job you should take the offer. If you want a good private life and not to die a stressful slow death your current job is the way to go.

[Endie]

The commute is the clincher for me: sounds ilke a one-third increase in your working hours for a one-third increase in your pay, so the money thing doesn't come into it even if you travel for free, if you count on a pay-per-hour basis.  If the extra commute costs you more than the old one did you're actually getting less per hour.  I did that sort of commute for a year and was absolutely shattered at the end of it.  I wouldn't go back: I live ten minutes' walk from my work and will almost certainly change jobs if my work moves out of the centre.  I was shattered, bad-tempered and more prone to illness from spending almost 20 hours a week travelling.

The exception might be because this is early in your career.  I had to do that stuff to get ahead: when you're in your mid 20s in competitive fields you are propably going to do long hours if you want to succeed in most fields.  It sucks but hey.

[Wolf]

Why are you assuming this "pioneering" project will be full of people who are incompetent and unlikable?

It's a "thing" here. People mostly slack and higher education is a questionable activity, so a normal big company that doesn't have strict hiring policies, like for example my current company does, ends up with a bunch of slacking and not-so-competent employees, simply because they need numbers and there just aren't enough "good" people to hire. I've worked at several bigger places before this job and it's always like that. That's not to say the guys I'll be working with are not likable. In fact I know some of them and they're fun. Fun to talk bullshit with over a beer, not necessarily to work with.

I know for a fact that the new boss can get in pissy moods, but incompetent he is not. He knew with pin-point accuracy how much money I made at my current place and knew to the fucking cent how much I will ask for. It was a really weird experience to talk to him, I felt like he's in my head debunking any arguments I might have before I even voiced them. 

Tebonas - you're in Austria. I probably wouldn't even think about it if the difference in the money and benefits was equal to "can do what I like with some restrictions" to "can do what I feel like with little restrictions but will have to work my ass off". It's more like "can live ok" to "can do what I like with some restrictions".

Thanks Endie, your post was very helpful.

I should really learn to use the damn preview button. No more edits :P

[Tebonas]

Ah ok! Then there is a third option. Go for it and move your home near the new working place if it works out. Best of both worlds.

[Endie]

If you decide that a bit of extra cash would be useful then you have those 20 hours you would have spent travelling "in reserve".  You wouldn't be the first twenty-something person to do some casual work in the evenings 3 or 4 nights a week, and if it is local then you'd be amazed how much less exhausting it is than getting up at 6.30 to get to the 7.25 train, knowing you won't be home for almost 12 hours.

Plus, if you're working a few shifts in the evenings you can just tell them to chuck it when you make the cash you need/fancy a break.  You can't just tell your main job that you fancy going home at 4 for a couple of months.

[Murgos]

Take the job and move closer.

I did the three hour commute thing for about a year.  It's just not worth it to spend 12 or so hours a day either commuting to, or being at work.  If you plan on driving (which is what I did) the stress of that will wear on you too.

The reason I say take the job is that you described it as a 'pioneering effort'.  When you are young those are the sorts of things (if it's a major effort and successful) that will shape the rest of your career.  I don't know what you do but real ground breaking stuff doesn't come along very often.

[Signe]

Yes, but how old were you, Murgos?  When I was his age, long commutes didn't bother me at all.  In fact, I sort of enjoyed them.  Especially in the snow!  At 24, I wouldn't blink at a 3 hour commute.  Now, however, it would kill me!   

[HaemishM]

Fuck that new job. If you know you're going to hate it, why bother? For more money? Fuck that. In 3 years, you'll have wrinkles under your eyes, you'll be tired and pissy all the goddamn time and you won't have any time to enjoy the money you are making. If you don't NEED the extra money and you are happy in your job, STAY WITH THE JOB.

[Roac]

Money:  If you need it, you need it, and this often becomes a deciding factor.  If you don't, then it's just luxury, and keep in mind that money won't make you enjoy a job you hate.  A job, mind you, that you'll spend a considerable amount of your waking time at or thinking about.

Commute:  I couldn't imagine a 3h commute.  Consider that the more you drive (or use public transportation), the more this eats into your pay.  This isn't just gas, but wear on the vehcile, as well as eating up even more of YOUR TIME.  If you have no family/house to tie you down, consider moving.  If the cost of living wherever this job is makes that unfeasible, consider that this may be why they're willing to pay more.

Boss: Bosses rarely last that long.  Your current one could leave (promote up, get a job elsewhere, die).  Same with your new one, should you move.  This should be a consideration, but normally I'd suggest it being minor.

Coworkers: Same as above, but even more volatile.

Attitude: Looking at the two above, I wonder why you're so negative about the new place.  If you go into a new job thinking everyone else is going to suck, right or wrong, it's going to effect your enjoyment of your time there.  Also, people can read you better than you think; if you think they suck, they'll get the hint and treat you accordingly.  Which may be fine, but consider how that will also eat into your job satisfaction.

Benefits: Depends on what the numbers are.  Really just part of your salary package though, because you can always buy more health insurance, etc.  Also depends on how much you need them; in your 20s, excellent health coverage likely isn't a priority (although at least "decent" is a must... never know).  Even sucky health options for me (in the US) cover big issues that I'd have to deal with, so most of the choices only matter if I go for multiple smaller trips, or take lots of pills.  I don't, and am not likely to, so it isn't all that important right now.  Just don't be too cheap on that front, because bad stuff does happen.

Future Pay Raises: Don't bank on this too heavily.  Remember, you can always leave and get a raise that way.  Rather, raises are signals of both the company financial stability, and their view of you, both of which can be juggled around a bit as time goes on. 

Job satisfaction: This is a big one.  Sometimes you have to make decisions based on money, benefits, and the like.  Being able to eat is very fucking important, but once you've got the basics covered consider how much money you really "need".  I know too many people who wind up in the hospital on work related stress, or who show up just to collect a check.  Their lives at work are shitty, and I have a hard time figuring how their private lives can be much better.  A good move can be working at a shitty job for a few years, in order to get the experience/contacts/etc to go and do what you REALLY want.  Goals like that can be ok, but man, HAVE GOALS.  Decide where you want to be, and aim for that. 

[Raging Turtle]

I'm with the people who say take the new job and move.  Jobs like the one you describe, even with a jerk boss and moronic co-workers, do not come along very often and are kind the thing that will get you hired at the job you *really* want a few years from now.  Tuck away the extra money for when disaster strikes, or to celebrate when you move up the ladder.

Think of it as being akin to grad school: you work your ass off and don't really have time to enjoy yourself, but at the end, your employability has gone way, way up*. 

And I'd much rather have a smart asshole boss than an incompetent one.  A smart boss is far more likely to recognize talent and hard work, and reward it.


*Does not apply getting your masters in philiosphy or something similar. 

[Soukyan]

@Wolf: Take the new job and move closer to it as soon as you can. I don't know how many of the people you will be working with you have met, but if you are assuming incompetence and a manager you are going to dislike, then you are already setting a bad tone. Since it is an opportunity that you seem very interested in, as far as the work itself is concerned, then take that positive attitude and apply it across the board. Don't let your assumptions ruin what could be a great chance to boost your career.

[Signe]

You could always get a motorbike.  That 3 hour commute can turn in to 1 hour, easy peasy lemon squeezy.  Especially in Europe.

[Wolf]

Thanks everyone, you guys really helped 

I think I overestimated the power of the word "pioneering", but hey, it's something very interesting that I will implement in the realities of my country, so whatever. I'm taking the new job, I managed to convince the new boss to give me a weird work schedule (11AM-7PM), so I'll miss the worst of the traffic jams and should cut the travel time by twenty minutes each way. It's not a matter of being that far, during the weekend I can get there in 25 minutes drive, but the problem is that it's on the other side of the city and on weekdays traffic is a bitch so that's where the extra hour comes from. Anyway, I'll be back in game distribution, plus I'll work with game media again so, hey, you can't frown at that. Thanks again, there were a couple of very helpful posts that made me consider stuff I hadn't even thought about.

[DraconianOne]

You could always get a motorbike.  That 3 hour commute can turn in to 1 hour, easy peasy lemon squeezy.  Especially in Europe.

From experience, this depends on the roads you travel on, where the job is, what the traffics like and the weather!  Commuting on two wheels is fantastic in the summer, not so much in the winter. 

[Sky]

That's what snowmobiles are for.

[Signe]

You could always get a motorbike.  That 3 hour commute can turn in to 1 hour, easy peasy lemon squeezy.  Especially in Europe.

From experience, this depends on the roads you travel on, where the job is, what the traffics like and the weather!  Commuting on two wheels is fantastic in the summer, not so much in the winter. 

Motorcycles seem to be more of a fair weather thing in the US.  I think it's more of a hobby for most people.  In much of Europe, however, it's a source of transportation year round, all weather.  I have friends who have only every used a motorbike for travel in sun, rain, snow, ice, and wouldn't even bother with cars.

[DraconianOne]

Motorcycles seem to be more of a fair weather thing in the US.  I think it's more of a hobby for most people.  In much of Europe, however, it's a source of transportation year round, all weather.  I have friends who have only every used a motorbike for travel in sun, rain, snow, ice, and wouldn't even bother with cars.

Is that much of Europe that's not the UK?  I'm one of the only people who commutes regularly by bike that I know of.  Most of the other bikers where I live all look at me as if I'm mad - it's a fair weather hobby for them.  Out of 6 people who use a bike to commute to where I'm currently working, most of them admit to not bothering if it's really bad weather. 

I know a lot of bikers do use it for travel regardless - I'm just playing Devil's A. and saying it can be fucking miserable when it's zero degrees, sleeting and you're on slow roads in the dark.  Potentially more dangerous too as none of the other fuckers on the road give a shit that you're only on two wheels. 

[Signe]

I've noticed people using motobikes in bad weather in parts of Europe that are not the UK.  hehe.  Not as much as the UK maybe.  It seems that in the US, however, you still need a car for all but bright, sunny days.  Maybe it has something to do with not really dressing proper on bikes here, too.  They wear jeans and shorts and trainers and I've even seen people wearing sandals.  Righ used to use bikes as his sole transportation when he was younger so he's one of those people who SEE bikers on the road.  I know what you mean though... so many people don't even notice them, even in the UK where they are as common as muck. 

[Murgos]

I'll offer up that in Barcelona the streets are covered in motorcycles and scooters by the thousand.  To me though the public transit was so good there and it was such a awesome city for walking that even having a scooter seemed mostly a luxury.

[Strazos]

Italy. Bikes and scooters. Everywhere. All weather.

[Wolf]

The thing is that Italy (most of it anyway) and Spain (and Greece and Southern France) are very much Southern countries with awesome climate almost all year long. These are the countries with many bikes. The UK, Germany, Scandinavia, etc, while they have a lot of bikers, the weather is shitty so they don't drive them for most of the year. In my case - Bulgaria - there are a ton of people that use both bikes and scooters, but when it was raining snow for a week and than hasn't gone above -15 (celsisus I have no idea what's that in Fahrenheit, something like -60?) for the following two weeks it's not a very good idea to drive around on two wheels.

edit: Ok, the Fahrenheit thing is even weirder than the feet/inches thing. wth. So -15C is 5F, but +15C is 59F.

[Endie]

There are five bikers out of the 22 people in my office.  We're in Edinburgh, so the weather isn't great in the winter, but three of them always bike in, and one of the others lives four streets away, so doesn't really count.

A couple of them use heated handlebars - the ones who come over 20 miles and who cross the Forth bridge - but they're pretty hardy.

[DraconianOne]

A couple of them use heated handlebars - the ones who come over 20 miles and who cross the Forth bridge - but they're pretty hardy.

Heated handlebars not that effective with wind chill I discovered - even with thermal gloves and glove liners.  Mind you, this was on a 40 mile trip that took the best part of two hours in 4 degrees weather.  I don't care if it means I'm a wuss for not wanting to do it again (although I may well have to on Friday so I'll let you know how it goes!  )

[Murgos]

edit: Ok, the Fahrenheit thing is even weirder than the feet/inches thing. wth. So -15C is 5F, but +15C is 59F.

If you knew what the scale was based on you would realize that it's pretty much pointless to try and correlate it to anything in a rational manner.  0 degrees is the temperature of water, ice and salt, 32 is just water and ice and 96 is body temp measured under the arm pit.

Good luck trying to figure out why.

[schild]

I am a retarded clown that hasn't taken a science course in 7 years. The original comment has been replaced with this. I am sorry. I might be a monkey.

[Signe]

MONKEY SMASH BUNNY!!!

That's you, that is.

[Strazos]

Monkey is wearing Sonic's shoes.

[Nebu]

I am a retarded clown that hasn't taken a science course in 7 years. The original comment has been replaced with this. I am sorry. I might be a monkey.

Science is the devil.  I am living proof of this. 

[damijin]

This is a bit of a late introduction since I've been registered to F13 for a year and a half, and have had this job for about half that time-

I'm a community manager for Kongregate, which puts me somewhere between the web industry and the casual games industry. We're similar to casual games portals, but it's founded on concepts of community and ideas borrowed stolen blatantly from MMORPGs in terms of giving players levels and rewards for playing.

We're currently producing a half dozen premium web game titles in flash, which will use microtransaction business models.

I also work with the guy who filmed the Leeroy Jenkins video. His name is Ben. He's a programmer. The actual guy who did the voice of Leeroy has an account on the site, but is maintaining a low profile with an inconspicuous name.

Edit to add a little more info about myself: I'm 20 years old -- I did not attend college or university, and I currently telecommute to my job from New Jersey. I landed my entry level position of "off hours administrator/QA" (which translates to, "Stay up late and make sure the servers don't crash, kid!") after visiting the site and chatting with the CEO Jim Greer on the in-site chat room system. I found the site through Raph Koster's blog around November 06.

I will be relocating to Portland, Oregon this summer and plan to release my first flash game next week. I also have plans of designing and directing my own flash MMO title over the course of the next year or two.

[Yegolev]

I'm glad you cleared that up.  I thought Kongregate was a Kommunist plot to make me like Tetris.

[damijin]

I thought Kongregate was a Kommunist plot to make me like Tetris.

I've always found the color scheme a bit Marxist in nature, plus we're based in San Fransisco 

[IainC]

I'm glad you cleared that up.  I thought Kongregate was a Kommunist plot to make me like Tetris.

Kommunist games design you say? One of my former bosses before he sold his soul got a better offer.