Preview of 1.2 - Lots of awesome changes and fixes

[Draegan]

Good changes. Now some content please. More raids coming with 1.3, and if there is gonna be nothing for PvP...

Which raids in 1.3?  Or are you guessing?

[Threash]

Hammerknell.

[waylander]

Ranged DPS is still King in PVP, and if you don't have it or the ability to mitigate it then you are toast. Single target snares need to have a longer duration, or a shorter immunity time.

Magic damage is too far out of whack, and any warrior can be nuked down in about 3 seconds. Valor doesn't seem to mitigate spell damage at all.

Godlike Clerics need toning down so it doesn't take 3-5 people to kill one.

I'm glad to see they are stopping the teleport/speed buffs in some of these maps when someone has a crystal.

Oh yeah....PVP gear is still not on par with PVE gear.  The stuff that drops in 20 man raids is way better.  A guildmate of mine got a single hand axe that does 34 DPS, and I don't recall seeing a single weapon on the P-6 vendor that got close to that.

[Draegan]

Hammerknell.

I know that's the next big raid, but what makes you say 1.3 for sure?

[Threash]

I'm glad to see they are stopping the teleport/speed buffs in some of these maps when someone has a crystal.

They didn't, they stopped the dmg inmunity while having the crystal abilities only.

[luckton]

Hammerknell.

I know that's the next big raid, but what makes you say 1.3 for sure?

They're taking guild applications to test it on the alpha server, aren't they?

[Nerf]

Hammerknell.

I know that's the next big raid, but what makes you say 1.3 for sure?

They're taking guild applications to test it on the alpha server, aren't they?

There's a post on Unstable Rift's forums that they are under NDA and can't talk about testing Hammerknell, so it looks like they're already testing it.

[Draegan]

Hammerknell testing is underway for sure.

They are indeed taking apps from guilds.

[luckton]

Hammerknell testing is underway for sure.

They are indeed taking apps from guilds.

Well what else are they going to do for 1.3?  Free server transfers can't take up that much development time. 

[Draegan]

New 10 man content? New warfront maps? I have no idea.  I don't think Hammerknell testing has been going on for very long and the place has 10-20 bosses in it. 

Unless 1.3 isn't coming out for a few months, then I would expect Hammerknell to be in 1.4.  Just a guess though.

[Xanthippe]

Ranged DPS is still King in PVP, and if you don't have it or the ability to mitigate it then you are toast. Single target snares need to have a longer duration, or a shorter immunity time.

Magic damage is too far out of whack, and any warrior can be nuked down in about 3 seconds. Valor doesn't seem to mitigate spell damage at all.

Godlike Clerics need toning down so it doesn't take 3-5 people to kill one.

I'm glad to see they are stopping the teleport/speed buffs in some of these maps when someone has a crystal.

Oh yeah....PVP gear is still not on par with PVE gear.  The stuff that drops in 20 man raids is way better.  A guildmate of mine got a single hand axe that does 34 DPS, and I don't recall seeing a single weapon on the P-6 vendor that got close to that.

I have only really played ranged pvp (other than a few failed attempts at assassin).  I was a free kill to everyone, leveling up from launch as a rogue, except to other rogues.  As a mage, if a warrior gets a stun off, I'm dead.  I don't know how else mages or rogues can kill warriors, other than from range.

I've been 3shot plenty of times by warriors. Some warrior subclasses just destroy me no matter what I do.  Others, I seem to destroy (I play a warlock/chloro in pvp).  Some clerics kill me; I kill some (probably kill more clerics than warriors).  I get killed by mages as much as I kill them, and assassins can 3shot me if they get the jump on me.  Marksmen also, are tough.

So while range is helpful, I seem to die plenty to melee as a mage.  I'm not sure it's as bad as you suggest.  Have you tried playing a mage or ranged rogue to see the difference?

[Azuredream]

Much like WoW gear is the biggest part of the equation, take a R0 mage and compare him to a R6 mage and they aren't even close.

[Xanthippe]

Much like WoW gear is the biggest part of the equation, take a R0 mage and compare him to a R6 mage and they aren't even close.

This is so true.  Take a R0 anything and compare it to an R6 whatever.

As a fresh 50, I get destroyed so far by everybody who has been playing at 50 longer than me.  Getting prestige while losing helps keep me going sort of, but it's not exactly what I would call fun, and my capacity to play a game while not having fun is shrinking all the time.

Why is it beyond mmo designers to create fun pvp for people?  I'm sure it's fun for the R6 players to have plenty of R0 players to dominate, but it's just grind for the R0s.  I can't recall how Guild Wars works in relation to this - do people become more powerful as they win more?

If warfronts are fun, then why must an element of grind be put into them before they are fun?  If they took out the grind, they would be more fun, although people might play less.  But they could grind for titles or pets or achievements (and they would) rather than superpowers and gear.

[Threash]

This is only since last patch, before that pvp gear sucked and everyone used their regular gear.  Sure raiders still had some advantage but the tier 2 gear available from plaques was not far behind.

[Zetor]

(snip)

Why is it beyond mmo designers to create fun pvp for people?  I'm sure it's fun for the R6 players to have plenty of R0 players to dominate, but it's just grind for the R0s.  I can't recall how Guild Wars works in relation to this - do people become more powerful as they win more?

If warfronts are fun, then why must an element of grind be put into them before they are fun?  If they took out the grind, they would be more fun, although people might play less.  But they could grind for titles or pets or achievements (and they would) rather than superpowers and gear.

Guild Wars has pretty much the best balanced pvp game I've seen in a mmog. You can create a pvp-only char that starts at max level (not that getting level 20 takes more than a few hours), and can use all of the skills that your characters have unlocked (via quests, capturing from bosses, or buying unlock packs from the store). Granted, for some builds you need to get very specific skills to be competitive, but you can create a perfectly viable pvp build out of the gate. You gain Balthazar faction as you win games, which you can use to unlock skills and various equipment upgrades (admittedly the equipment upgrades make a difference, but not THAT big a difference). Due to GW's design, everyone has the same stats (hp/mana/armor) and the same number of skillpoints to distribute among the same class abilities. Of course if you want to use the latest theorycrafted uberbuild, you'll need to have unlocked the appropriate skills for it.

GW has other problems. The barrier-of-entry is finding people to play with, which causes schedule issues. The competitive formats all need 4/8 people... the only things you can pug are random arenas (basically team deathmatch and also insanely luck-dependant) and the two 'battleground-esque' competitive missions from Factions (which are decent to fun-to-play, but there's only 2 of them).

[Vinadil]

The other issue with Rift is that there is no real meaningful world PvP... and no Warfront map with any size or a large enough player base to actually involve strategy or tactics.  In both Shadowbane and even WAR it was quite possible for our guild to compete against relatively close numbers (say 50% more then us) even though we constantly had poorly equipped people simply because larger maps provide some room for tactics.  Things like scouting the enemy and choosing where to engage could really help the gear issues fade somewhat.  Sure you still have a large advantage if your whole team does +30% DPS and takes -30% damage from gear... but even when losing I don't tend to feel it as much on a larger map.

The warfronts as they are just turn into a grinding machine of death for the lesser geared players, and having been on both sides of that equation I can say neither is really "fun"; winning is just a bit more rewarding.  Really hoping they add either a MUCH larger warfront or a PvP zone with controllable objectives.

[Threash]

While i agree that Rift pvp needs a lot of help i can't say i've ever been in a warfront and thought "what this really needs is more of me riding around on my horse".

[Tannhauser]

I haven't played any pvp in Rift.  You just can't balance this shit.  I play Rift for pve and World of Tanks for pvp.  Both are very fun in their niches.  WoT even has me thinking of playing EvE. 

Games should be about one thing.  If you try to be all things to all people you'll fail.  Even Blizzard, maybe the greatest PC game makers of all time, can't figure out how to balance WoW pvp. 

[Nebu]

Ranged DPS is still King in PVP, and if you don't have it or the ability to mitigate it then you are toast. Single target snares need to have a longer duration, or a shorter immunity time.

Funny that you say this.  I play a mage (granted, only rank 4) and find warriors to be near unkillable.  They have too many ways to get to me quickly and interrupt me once they do.  A good war can keep me interrupted the entire 10s that they need to kill me.  If you take a R6 warrior AND a r6 cleric combo... well, they can kill entire groups. 

Clerics are what needs to be toned down.  Their healing is based on the ability to keep a tank alive while he kills 1 million hp bosses.  If I didn't have a spammable ability that reduces healing to my target by 30%, I'd never kill anything.

[Xanthippe]

I just spent a couple of days in the warfronts, one on my rogue (mostly marksman) and one on my mage (warlock/chloro/archmage).

Marksman seems, hands down, the best rogue spec.  Using eradicate, I can quickly strip healing and other buffs off anyone, so that the rest of the group can kill them, and if they aren't buffed, the damage isn't bad given that I can pretty constantly kite them around with all the speed buffs marksman has.  I only wish my reflexes were as nimble as they were 20 years ago - but I do ok as a geriatric low-ranked mm.  I don't know why every marksman doesn't do this, frankly. 

Bard is good too, for the added speed buff, but the healing and buffs don't seem to add as much.  As a rank1, it didn't seem to matter what I did that much, since I was up against mostly higher levels and being carried by whatever high levels our side has, so I fooled around with bard.  I didn't get targeted nearly as fast as bard as I did as a mm.

I went from R1 to R2 on mage and the difference between 50ish valor and 425 valor is huge.  I was able to actually stay alive long enough to at least feel like I was helping, as opposed to being 2hit.  I had to remember to reapply my buffs (which wasn't hard since I was dying constantly anyway, and I know how powerful eradicate is).  I'm not at all sure that eradicate is OP, given that to me, warriors seem pretty damned OP.

Trion decided to merge some warfronts together, so now there is a pool of about 6 or 8, I'm not sure, clustered together.  My win ratio for pugs went from about 35% or 40% wins (Monday) down to 5% (yesterday) due to the merge.  I don't know why defiants seem to have more high ranked pvpers, but they certainly do.  Instant queues are ok but it's really not fun to lose almost every game, and suddenly our warfronts are flooded by trash-talking douchebags.  I might need a bigger ignore list.

Getting to 50 only to spend tens of hours being fodder so that one maybe has a shot at contributing does not seem like a winning strategy for keeping players around.   Warfronts were so fun pre50 when nobody had gear; while people might play warfronts less (due to only playing when they're having fun as opposed to grinding favor/prestige), they might have more fun in them - well, not the R6 jerks who get off on farming favor while holding stones or otherwise not doing much to advance the score but Trion shouldn't care about what they want anyway, as that sort of behavior can demoralize other players, which isn't good for business.

[Draegan]

DIKU PVP is terrible.

[Nebu]

DIKU PVP is terrible.

DIKU PvP implementation in games aiming for mainstream success (a la WoW, Rift, etc) is terrible.  I rather enjoyed DAoC and WAR pvp once they started to sort out balance issues.  The key is a progression path that rewards options/abilities rather than gear/power.  


Note: I don't mean to have all these debates with you Draegan.  It's nothing personal or anything.

[Threash]

I just spent a couple of days in the warfronts, one on my rogue (mostly marksman) and one on my mage (warlock/chloro/archmage).

Marksman seems, hands down, the best rogue spec.  Using eradicate, I can quickly strip healing and other buffs off anyone, so that the rest of the group can kill them, and if they aren't buffed, the damage isn't bad given that I can pretty constantly kite them around with all the speed buffs marksman has.  I only wish my reflexes were as nimble as they were 20 years ago - but I do ok as a geriatric low-ranked mm.  I don't know why every marksman doesn't do this, frankly. 

Bard is good too, for the added speed buff, but the healing and buffs don't seem to add as much.  As a rank1, it didn't seem to matter what I did that much, since I was up against mostly higher levels and being carried by whatever high levels our side has, so I fooled around with bard.  I didn't get targeted nearly as fast as bard as I did as a mm.

I went from R1 to R2 on mage and the difference between 50ish valor and 425 valor is huge.  I was able to actually stay alive long enough to at least feel like I was helping, as opposed to being 2hit.  I had to remember to reapply my buffs (which wasn't hard since I was dying constantly anyway, and I know how powerful eradicate is).  I'm not at all sure that eradicate is OP, given that to me, warriors seem pretty damned OP.

Trion decided to merge some warfronts together, so now there is a pool of about 6 or 8, I'm not sure, clustered together.  My win ratio for pugs went from about 35% or 40% wins (Monday) down to 5% (yesterday) due to the merge.  I don't know why defiants seem to have more high ranked pvpers, but they certainly do.  Instant queues are ok but it's really not fun to lose almost every game, and suddenly our warfronts are flooded by trash-talking douchebags.  I might need a bigger ignore list.

Getting to 50 only to spend tens of hours being fodder so that one maybe has a shot at contributing does not seem like a winning strategy for keeping players around.   Warfronts were so fun pre50 when nobody had gear; while people might play warfronts less (due to only playing when they're having fun as opposed to grinding favor/prestige), they might have more fun in them - well, not the R6 jerks who get off on farming favor while holding stones or otherwise not doing much to advance the score but Trion shouldn't care about what they want anyway, as that sort of behavior can demoralize other players, which isn't good for business.

The merge probably made more organized groups test the waters, things should go back to normal soon.

[Draegan]

DIKU PVP is terrible.

DIKU PvP implementation in games aiming for mainstream success (a la WoW, Rift, etc) is terrible.  I rather enjoyed DAoC and WAR pvp once they started to sort out balance issues.  The key is a progression path that rewards options/abilities rather than gear/power.  


Note: I don't mean to have all these debates with you Draegan.  It's nothing personal or anything.

WAR pvp, to me, was essentially the same as WOW or Rift.  Also, debates are fun.  Thats why there are forums, no?

[devildog]

I am approaching burnout quickly in rift pvp. I play a healing cleric primarily, and have hit rank 4 recently. I have a rank 4 weapon and everything else is r1/2 gear. Somewhere around 17% valor aka damage reduction. Rank 6 anything will knock me down just by looking at me it seems. The gear disparity is pretty high between rank5/6 people and everyone else. Now add to that the fact that most R5/6 guys are running around in premades and you might see how it gets out of hand quickly. The grind is harsh for the rank 5/6 gear to be sure, and the pain getting there is probably the worst of it. Ok, so you think, i'm getting whooped up on, no big deal, it will be over pretty quick. Not so fast my friend. The enemy premade has determined they are going to get their 20 minute que's worth off of you and has decided to quit running shards, completing objectives and just farm you for points. Yay, that is a really good time for the losers. I guess on the bright side you can always recall once an hour out of a lopsided game like that. Too bad the cooldown isn't more like 15 minutes instead of an hour.

Did i mention that several classes are pigeon-holed into just a couple of specs in pvp? While you can try odd specs, and sometimes get them to work, most times only one or two lines at most are even somewhat effective. I have seen a couple of different healing cleric specs, but the only one i can reliably use is something that is warden heavy. Standing still and casting gets you run over. So far, healing does not equal damage, even on a 1v1 basis, except in very rare instances. A smart marksman can remove hots faster than i can put them up. Time to kill seems really low.

I don't want to be gloom and doom, but i can't see this doing anything but killing new people who come into pvp. A lot will not stomach the march to r6. Being part of a pug group thrown into a game against a r5/6 premade is not going to appeal to most people.

[luckton]

Sounds like a typical PvE game's take on PvP to me.     I agree with Nebu.  If Rift's PvP progression was options/abilities based (which would be stupidly easy thanks to the soul system), and make gear not count for shit in a Warzone or PvP in general, things would be a lot different.

[Xanthippe]

The way I deal with the games when the high levels are camping spawn points to kill while holding the shards is to refuse to be farmed.  I stand well back from anyone at the wall and wait out my time.  I know, how unsporting of me to refuse to jump down to be 2shot, huh?

It's really a shame how badly unbalanced it is in 50 pvp between the high levels and low levels.  Being fodder for weeks to gain ranks and gear so that I can destroy fodder quicker and maybe survive as fodder a little longer is not fun pvp.

Pre-50 warfronts were a blast.  I may just go back to those.

(edited: adding words so it makes sense)

[luckton]

Another idea...since Trion seems to be on a Warfront server-merging frenzy, just merge all of them.  Now divide your 6 PvP ranks into three groups, the 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6.  Generate Warzone battles among these groups only.

Far fetched for sure, but I'm more of a "throw whatever you got at the wall and see what sticks" kinda' guy.

[Nebu]

Another idea...since Trion seems to be on a Warfront server-merging frenzy, just merge all of them.  Now divide your 6 PvP ranks into three groups, the 1-2, 3-4 and 5-6.  Generate Warzone battles among these groups only.

Far fetched for sure, but I'm more of a "throw whatever you got at the wall and see what sticks" kinda' guy.

Great great idea.  Premades would still do well, but not quite as well as a premade + rr6 gear against R1-2's.  If they did this, they could also justify making the rank progression a longer grind without the players minding so much.

[luckton]

Great great idea.  Premades would still do well, but not quite as well as a premade + rr6 gear against R1-2's.  If they did this, they could also justify making the rank progression a longer grind without the players minding so much.

Well then...helmsman, set course for the Rift forums!

[Draegan]

That is a great idea actually.

[Dren]

And we are full circle back to the suggestion of having pvp matches that negate equipment differences and goes purely on player skill / technique / ability  choices.  Basically an FPS version of a battlefront.  Go all the way and have temporary powerups people can earn/find during the match, etc.

Points/badges/whatever earned by doing matches can be used for gear and fluff used outside of the battlefronts.  To me, those items would mean more.  I certainly would be more impressed with somebody that was strutting around with proof of doing well at raw skill pvp.  Premades would still be there, but their only benefit would be organization/practice/communication. 

If anything, just make this option available alongside the traditional BF's.  That would help prove out what is more popular.

[Draegan]

I still think there should be better gear for ranking up, gaining points.  But I don't think the difference should be drastic.

[Dren]

I still think there should be better gear for ranking up, gaining points.  But I don't think the difference should be drastic.

Both our thoughts could be combined easily.  A lot of the modern FPS games have forms of this one way or another.  Yes, you get perks for playing a lot and getting wins/kills etc.  But, none of those perks make you a god.  You might be able to survive 1-2 shots more than a newb.  You might have better/faster access to powerups.  None of the perks would, for example, allow you to get attacked by 3-5 newbs and laugh it off like that seen in modern MMO PVP.

[Draegan]

Yes.