War

[Phildo]

Another reason for the existence of obscene numbers of mothership pilots is that, unlike titans, all you need to train to get into one are the basic skills for carriers plus the Fighter Bombers book which is only 100m.  The titan skillbook is roughly 5 billion isk itself, which is prohibitively expensive to most people.  So if an alliance wants more supercap pilots, they'll throw 10 billion at any existing carrier pilot who's willing, which isn't that much for established 0.0 alliances.

Although, since they haven't held space in a long time, I have no idea where D00M's isk comes from.

[Slayerik]

Eve Online Hold'em.

[Kageru]

Some of the fleets do look fairly silly though. I mean this battle is pretty scary. The 50 billion isk lost is really going to hurt. And if they can build a critical mass of such ships, which looks fairly much the case, the amount of invested effort you need to put on the line to oppose them is going to become increasingly punitive. You could even get a tipping point where the "elite" PvP players who own such ships flock to a corporations where they can use such ships with relative safely.

Though in this case the fight is russian on russian rather than Atlas getting beaten on. I guess they wouldn't have even risked fielding that many carriers in the first place.

[Sir T]

what you have to realise about that battle (to take an example)is that every single one of those supercarriers is dropping a minimum of 14 fighters on the board and most probably 20 fighter-bombers, which are basically a far nastier type of fighter. In addition every one of those carriers is a logistics ship capable of repairing every other carrier and every other ship. So one guy gets targeted, hes got 20 friends poring capital level health into him while that fighter cloud is tearing you up. Plus every one of those titans means that one of your ships has been blown up immediately.

Even if the game could handle that amount of fighters firing at once without lagging to death, how do you handle that. The traditional answer was dreads, but Dreads vs Supercarriers at this point pretty much means dead Dreads. Dreads cant be remote repped once they enter siege mode, and fighter bombers are designed to take on dreads.

[Kageru]

Saw this on Kugu. 0.0 PvE must be a lot more profitable than I thought or that's a substantial amount of Isk grinding they expect of every pilot. Would these ships be at Jita type prices or alliance subsidised?

Every pilot needs to have the following ships stocked up in I-N with fittings ready to go:

• 5 RR BS
• 5 Shield drakes
• 5 Armor hacs
• 5 Dictors and or hics
• 5 Bombers
• 5 Logistics
• 5 Coverts
• 5 Recons (Lachesis / Huginn preferred)
• 3 Command ships (Damnation, Sleipner, Claymore, Vulture)
• 2 Tech 3 ships
• Ships of your choice for small roaming gangs

[Phildo]

That's a pretty high-end order, there.  Is that what The InitiativeDOT is asking their members to have on hand?

[Kageru]

Apparently... they want to field a full fleet of T3 cruisers too.

[Sir T]

Saw this on Kugu. 0.0 PvE must be a lot more profitable than I thought or that's a substantial amount of Isk grinding they expect of every pilot. Would these ships be at Jita type prices or alliance subsidised?

It depends on the alliance. Typically you are expected to get the ships and fit them out yourself, then the alliance gives you cash or a new hull if and when you die on an op.

But that is one serious load of ships to expect people to have on hand. at least 3 billion isk by my 3 fingers and a thumb calculations.

[Gets]

-A- strategy: 1) form 2) farm for supercarriers 3) destroy nearby pushover entities 4) ebay supercarriers 5) get smacked by same supercarriers

[Kitsune]

The real cost of supercarriers is that you'd better have your skills up to Vs, and once you're piloting one, that pilot is pretty much finished with the game.  Unless you have another pilot handy to take the ship when you want to go skidding around space in a bomber, you can never ever leave that ship again.  They're exquisite machines, but tying a pilot to just the sole activity of flying one is more of a sacrifice than I think I'd ever be willing to make.

[Kageru]

The pilot sacrifice element changes a bit if super-carriers become a "standard" ship for the alliance surely? People are ratting and roaming in carriers now (/laugh at the razor guy who lost two carriers in the same week to rats) and there doesn't seem to be too much reason that can't progress towards people using super-carrier pilots as their mains (more so than titans which I think have a fairly narrow and strategic role).

It is funny that PL bought many of their super-carriers from Atlas and -A- though. But being able to buy the advantages of 0.0 without needing to hold or defend space is a nice situation.

Looks like Atlas is planning a glorious defence on Thursday which could be fairly pivotal. They need to reclaim the initiative so that the capital ship owners are much more nervous about fielding their ships. Or even better inflict some serious losses to reduce the size of the fleet. Though the most likely winner of the fight is probably lag.

[IainC]

Saw this on Kugu. 0.0 PvE must be a lot more profitable than I thought or that's a substantial amount of Isk grinding they expect of every pilot. Would these ships be at Jita type prices or alliance subsidised?

Every pilot needs to have the following ships stocked up in I-N with fittings ready to go:

• 5 RR BS
• 5 Shield drakes
• 5 Armor hacs
• 5 Dictors and or hics
• 5 Bombers
• 5 Logistics
• 5 Coverts
• 5 Recons (Lachesis / Huginn preferred)
• 3 Command ships (Damnation, Sleipner, Claymore, Vulture)
• 2 Tech 3 ships
• Ships of your choice for small roaming gangs

That's a tall order for most 0.0 PvPers that I can think of. The thing that strikes me about that list (apart from the insane raw isk cost and the >50m SPs needed to fly it) is that it's apparently planning for failure. Generally a 'deployed' PvP pilot would have a couple of whatever DPS ships are called for by the fleet doctrine du jour (fleet BS, Armour HACs or whatever) and perhaps an assortment of 2 or 3 snowflake ships depending on skills (logistics, command ships, recons). The thinking being that you will likely lose a few ships in a campaign and should have enough suitable replacements to reship and roll out again in short order. Expecting to lose that kind of laundry list though gives me no confidence in their FCs to assess engagement risks or the alliance to pick realistic strategic goals.

I'd be unwilling to put that kind of investment in hulls on the line.

[tgr]

...and I thought I was thinking ahead when I had 10 fitted hurricanes ready to go in h-w during the NC vs SC war.

[MahrinSkel]

FIX held itself together as long as it did on a principle of stockpiling 2 top-grade ships of whatever you were best at, and a deep bench of "chaff models",   Early combat stages involved FIX taking massive losses of cheap, easily replace ships, while holding the premium stuff back for the big strategic fights, after the enemy had ground down their reserves and were fielding 2nd/3rd tier ships, which then faced our first time in the later battles.  Every war against fix the enemy felt like they were winning, right up until they lost.  Even Goons learned that wars of attrition against FIX were losing propositions.

Unrealistic deep benches of top-tier ships played right into out hands, sooner or later 3-1 victories that cost them twice the value always wore them out, as they had to retire their top tier to either replenish, or came at us in 3rd tier crap equipped from hangar trash that we ate up like candy.

--Dave

[Endie]

Yeah that's some idiot theorycrafting.  It's over 6bn in ships and fittings, and even if only 200 of their pilots actually fell for it (3 command ships?  I've flown command ships for 18 months, including in close-range fleet fights, and never lost a single one!) then suddenly Eve's producers are picking up the slack on 1.2 trillion ISK of demand spike.  Not to mention the heavy-lift capacity needed to get 1,000 battleships and 600 command ships into 0.0, along with all the normal logistics demands.

If they lose a ship on every single op that's 45 ops.  At one op a day, ever day, 7 days a week, that's a month and a half, and nobody goes at that tempo.

And so on: some idiot being dumb.

[Simond]

Or someone running ship construction on the side being smart. 

[Endie]

Or someone running ship construction on the side being smart. 

Yeah that did occur to me.

Anyway, for all those who have watched the Eve wars from the sidelines, why not take the chance to try it out for yourselves?  Our almost-annual recruitment drive is up: http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=19714.0

[Kageru]

Another super-cap turkey-shoot, CH/NC. vs NC.

There are really several game design issues in fights like these. The fact that people can field super-capital ship gangs is one of them. The more serious is that the combat results are so one sided. Assuming the defenders were not grossly incompetent not being able to inflict any losses on the attackers, while losing 34 billion worth of ships, is bad for the health of the game. Really only two options either you need to get all your own people into supercaps or you stop playing.

Though I'm not entirely sure how CCP can fix it without major outcry.

[MahrinSkel]

That's the way it works with capital spider-tanks.  Either you can break the tank (dish out damage faster than the targets can be repaired), and you destroy the enemy to the last ship, or you can't, and you get destroyed.  Since super-caps are worth any required number of bubble-blowers to keep pinned down, once battle is joined there's going to be a clear, decisive result (unless *neither* side brought enough firepower to break the tank of the other, but there's no reason for that to happen).

Once one side starts losing ships, it cascades quickly.

--Dave

[Kageru]

Yeah, I understand the mechanic. I just wonder if CCP consider it a problem that needs solving. A combat where both sides bleed a bit is a lot more sustainable in the long term than a situation in which one side of the battle can become effectively unassailable and then build on that strength.

In practice though I'm sure most of the alliances are watching and accelerating their own super-carrier production (as much as it can be). Though long term this just amplifies the problem.

Still, I wanted to fly recons and HIC's anyway and those look to remain useful even if the game does evolve that way. More so even since the value of good intelligence is amplified when you are jumping a fleet like that around.

[Comstar]

So I hear ATLAS lost a Titan when it cynod into a POS and bounced off the shields?

[Gets]

Yes, it was instagibbed.

[tgr]

Russian FCs sound scary.

[Comstar]

ATLAS just lost a 2nd Titan

    Xtreem > our orders after me taking a day off working and sitting in station for 10 hours is to JC out and evac our stuff later

    Rakaim > yeah if we get blue balls i'm done

    Celine Lyrus > jesus i fuckin hate atlas right now

    Von Seth > giving up without a fight is lame

    Von Seth > so i`m like moving my shit to empire

    Thorian Baalnorn > We been here 8 fucking hours plus had we of took the system earlier today we could of killed the reds as they trickled in instead of waiting for them all to mass up in system

    Rakaim > FUCK YOU ATLAS LEADERSHIP FUCK YOU AND FUCK YOUR FUCKING MOTHERS TOOO

    Naicinh > this shit gonna kill us not PL

    DUSKULL > end of the day if you carevears had stepped up a week ago we wouldnt be in this shit. dont start calling the leadership now when youve done fuck all to help the sitaution

Bye Bye ATLAS. Though I suspect Bobby Atlas will survive to fight another day.

[Stabs]

I don't understand why players in games don't fight to the bitter end in these situations.

What is the point of running to Empire? Big space fights, even if stacked against you should be the pinnacle of Eve. It's like you spend three years getting to the point you can make a real difference in an important battle then all the time after that avoiding said battle.

Would Bobby Atlas not find it easier to rebuild if everyone had a spirited rousing defence that they remembered with affection while grinding level 4s in high sec?

Maybe it's a game mechanic thing. Maybe it is just tedious frustrating and dull to get wiped out by superior numbers in Eve. I would have thought though there were fun things to do to mess around with an invading force if you were simply looking to have an enjoyable time.

[Sparky]

Most 0.0 players are there primarily to fatten their wallets and pad their killboards with easy kills.  They'll PVP but only when it's easy ganks.  The game encourages that behaviour with hellishly boring isk and logistics grinds unless you're lucky or clever.  The risk takers who'll fight outnumbered or to a bitter end are a rare breed.

[Simond]

Russian FCs sound scary.

I'd imagine that's why CCP used them in the Dominion trailer.

[Slayerik]

Romanian's are pretty scary too, always yelling and cussing in broken English. Sith Bandon, one of Eve's top killers of all time, scared the fuck out of me. I knew I did well when I wasn't berated or called a "fackin' ee-dee-eat" by the end of an op. Sure got you to learn quick and try to follow orders, even when you couldn't understand wtf he was saying half the time.

[setar]

That's why I loved the -A- of old. Everyone would go out of their way to make sure they'd not get yelled at, but even if you did it was never personal and usually absolutely warranted.

[Kageru]

That said Atlas are facing a fairly terrifying force that pushes the boundaries of game balance. Fighting to the end is good when you can at least start grinding the enemy down. But when it's just going to result in a couple of seconds of a super-carrier remote repping after the massed titans have one shot any ships that represent a serious threat you've got to be wondering if that's much better for Morale.

The real loss has to have been strategic. Sacrificing the initiative, morale, allowing your fleet to be camped in station and not having sufficient allies to mount a realistic challenge means the battle was probably already decided regardless of what the fleet did.

[Fordel]

Most 0.0 players are there primarily to fatten their wallets and pad their killboards with easy kills.  They'll PVP but only when it's easy ganks.  The game encourages that behaviour with hellishly boring isk and logistics grinds unless you're lucky or clever.  The risk takers who'll fight outnumbered or to a bitter end are a rare breed.

IE: Most people don't actually want 'good fights'. 

[Gets]

From: Bobby Atlas
To: Atlas Alliance [ATLAS]
I will keep this short and sweet.

First of all shit happens, anyone who has been in ATLAS for awhile accepts that, especially those still with us from drone times. We have been through this mess before but this time is different, we have more options at our disposal and one of those many options includes relocating to other ATLAS owned space.

That said, the orders are simple, at the moment we are relocating too <REDACTED>, <REDACTED> are the ideal locations. If you want you can put 1 or 2 pvp ships into 77s but I would recommend you put those in omist instead.

The last 5 weeks of conflict has had its moments of up and downs, we have held our own very well this long in our forward regions, many expected these regions to fold weeks ago and it is a statement too ATLAS consistent participation and determination that we held this long.

Understand this is not an issue of allies or similar, our allies have and continue to show up when we request it but insmother and southern detorid is not exactly a short trip for our allies. Our allies have committed to continued support for us and with us relocating much closer to them / behind allied regions, there participation and involvement will only increase and become more prompt.

As for our titan losses on Thursday, two of them, there is little I can say to those situations. Shit happens really, I have made arrangements so both titans receive the ATLAS standard 30bn reimbursement for titan losses and one of the two titan losses is already replace with an alliance titan that was collecting dust. Just as with nipild titan loss, you will see those pilots back in shiny new toys sooner rather than later. We take care of our own, nothing will change that.

Keep your head on straight, scout your jump routes, help corp and alliance mates relocate and stock markets where appropriate in omist. This is not game over, we faught and bled for the space we took, for the space we've lost and we will do so again to retake it.

~Bobby

Minor correction there, Bobbeh. You took the space first and are now doing the bleeding part.

[Phred]

Say what you will about Bobby, he still seems like a decent leader, who should have little trouble holding his alliance together despite crushing defeats like this. Or am I just falling for his spin control?

[Stabs]

Not at all, I was thinking that his message was the perfect answer to my question about fighting to the bitter end. Coming up with a tough road with a positive aim is much better than fighting to the last and I also thought the bit about titan losses was rather classy.

[Phildo]

Against ALL Authorities has been losing a great any corporations in the wake of the resignation of Manfred Sideous.  The latest on the rumor mill is BDCI, per this mail that was posted on Kugutsumen.

Best of Luck!
Apologies for length, but there's simply no easy way to say all this.

After nearly two years of flying with AAA, we have made the very hard decision to move on. When BDCI first approached AAA to discuss the possibilities of joining this alliance, it was with not a small amount of caution. AAA had, in the past, been some of our fiercest enemies and was our one true nemesis. We'd fought wars with AAA, been invaded and hot dropped, and we'd suffered our first - supercap and titan losses against AAA.

Still, AAA was an alliance we had a great deal of respect for and, as it turned out, so did they for us. Our talks to request a trial were successful and when Evil Thug launched a grand campaign against Goonswarm, we were proudly flying side by side with our brothers and sisters in AAA. In the next several months, BDCI and AAA pilots grew to trust each other and it was not long before BDCI was made official members of the alliance.

Having been one of several people to shepherd this effort, I couldn't have been prouder to finally wear the alliance tags. BDCI made a decision to join AAA, we made this our goal, and we set ourselves to accomplish this goal. The entire corporation made this our job, and we all pulled through to succeed in our task. I can never thank Thug enough for those first few chats between long time enemies that eventually led us here. It's always fun when you find out what was going on from the other side.

Since joining, we pushed hard against Goonswarm in some of the fiercest fighting seen in EVE. We helped take Querious and Delve, we helped take Providence, we struck against the NC homeland, and when NC struck back, we bled for our alliance. We've taken some of our heaviest losses and scored some of our best victories alongside this alliance, and we've done it with pride.

Body Count Inc. came from a mercenary culture. We forged our corporation by taking on contracts and completing them not only to the best of our abilities but often to surpass the highest expectations of our clients. This molded us into a tightly knit family that is extremely goal focused. Give us a task, a mission, and we will do it with laser precision. Without that focus, we start to wither and die.

When Mercenary Coalition fell, we faltered. We lost our edge, our focus and our drive. We spent the next few months trying to find ourselves as a corporation again, and it wasn't until we joined our most feared adversaries that we were able to fully rebuild and reestablish ourselves as the corporation that we once were. As a result, Body Count is a much stronger corporation today than it was in a very long time.

But, and there's always a but in these things, AAA today is not the AAA that we once joined. All corporations and alliances change, this is inevitable. I refer you to DanMck's post where he points out several things that have changed within AAA. He makes several very good points in his post, and it is a worthwhile read as BDCI shares many of the same points of view. He does, however, miss a few very important points. One of the most important of these points is Culture. Specifically, corporation and alliance culture.

As I mentioned above, BDCI is a corporation which is very much family and goal focused. We take good care of our pilots, and we work toward common goals. The US Marine concept of "Never leave anyone behind" isn't far from what we have, and if you've ever been in any kind of military organization, you'll know what I mean. We thrive on information flow, lolcats and organization.

There are other cultures in this game that are just as successful, some of which succeed despite all common sense, being little more than a disorganized rabble with a few tireless shepherds at the top. Others are elite organizations that have little tolerance for error and have success rates beyond belief. These cultures are as diverse as they are plentiful, yet all of them share one common element - they work at their very best when mated with like minds that complement them and drive them to greater heights.

Our corporation still remains true to our corporate culture, but the one of AAA has slowly changed. Our corporation is still as strong as it was, maybe even more so, but our culture is no longer one that matches that of AAA. Therefore we have decided to go our separate ways. It has not been an easy decision to make, nor one that was taken quickly, but one that we feel is right for our corporation and the alliance as a whole.

We've made a lot of friends in this alliance, and we've had a lot of fun. We thank you all immensely for letting us fly with you and we're very proud to have worn the tags. It's not an easy farewell, but one that one that is made with few regrets.

To all of Against ALL Authorities, the best of luck from Body Count Inc!

Fly safe and see you in space! o/

IF u need more pr0n u just mail me and I will send some will stop spamming coz this spamming is stupid. ALSO X-7 is fun place to live I like it see positive comment here DAN

Be sure to say hi to us when you move into X-7, setar!