War

[Sir T]

didn't goonswarm do big ops last ('08) christmas/thanksgiving break?   dunno about this thanksgiving/christmas though

Thanksgiving yeah, we fought major battles in VNG. Christmas not so much, but there were people doing stuff on christmas day. Nothing organized though

[Endie]

Can't imagine this being limited by funding, but what the hell do I know about how much resources the former BOB corps managed to rescue from Delve. Given some of the firesales (Tournament prizes, even) it might very well turn into a problem.

Didn't hear anything about Black Star, not even on my radar. Looks like I got more reading to do, no idea how they fit in. Gah.

IT have a lot of prom & dyspro moons, now (c.25 I think?), so they should be able to absorb this cost-wise.  After fuelling costs they seem to only make something like 1.7 billion each on average now, so that's a month's income gone in one fight, but this will be decided by logistics and morale, not money.  It must be more of a worry for them that they seem to lose almost every big fight to goons, and lose badly.  While our worry is about unreliable allies in nearby space losing systems through incompetence.  Basically we've swapped positions with them over two years.

[Pezzle]

UK wardecced CVA in a bold move to show us who in alliance does not read the boards/mails and plays in high sec.

[slog]

So it looks like the new SOV mechanics result in Time Zone wars that the defender will always win?

[Endie]

So it looks like the new SOV mechanics result in Time Zone wars that the defender will always win?

Nah Tri took a station inside a few days, for starters.

What this system does is encourage people to invade people on the same timezone as them.  It stops people winning wars without having to win fights unlike before, where you just had to control two TZs, kite towers into your time, spam, win.

The trouble is that people are behaving in the old way, where taking station systems won wars.  Now you have to win wars to take station systems.  Break an enemy and their station systems will fall to you.  But you have to beat them first.  An unbroken enemy needn't lose its stations.

[Sir T]

Evil Thug announced he is quitting eve and wrapping up Rage and Terror on Ru-CAOD yesterday.

[Dallan]

The trouble is that people are behaving in the old way, where taking station systems won wars.  Now you have to win wars to take station systems.  Break an enemy and their station systems will fall to you.  But you have to beat them first.  An unbroken enemy needn't lose its stations.

This is a good point, and I think CCP has said something very similar to this - that they wanted the sov system to describe rather than prescribe.

The problem I'm seeing, though, is how do you break an off-TZ enemy without taking their stations, when fights between you will be necessarily rare?

[setar]

Evil Thug announced he is quitting eve and wrapping up Rage and Terror on Ru-CAOD yesterday.

Yeah, we've all been waiting for the announcement for a while now. None of the old guard have been online for four to six months now (including ET, Andy and others). Glad that he decided to wrap things up in this way, I'm not sure I could just hand over the reigns like that. In a way -A- has always been 'his' alliance, much as MC was Sel's playground. Will be interesting to see whether we manage to keep the russian and non-russian speaking parts of the alliance as well integrated as before, or whether this eventually leads to a rift. Don't get me wrong, I really think both 'sides' really like each other, but it requires a lot of work keeping everything running smoothly in two languages, from day-to-day logistics to CTAs.

[Sir T]

Yeah its always a real test when an Alliance leader steps away. End of an era really, to be honest. Certainly will be difficult for you guys at the very least.

[Phildo]

So who are the likely leaders, Setar?  I honestly don't know anything about remaining personalities in AAA.

[setar]

Being discussed, and I'd be tarred, feathered, then podded for passing on anything. Actually, the difficult phase has been the last few months -- no 'big plan' or general sense of direction other than waiting for leadership to become active again, for Dominion to hit, for.. something. That triggered, at least in part, the BDCI/HAVOC roadtrip to Fountain. Do _something_ while otherwise waiting.

We'll see what happens now. Some corps might part ways to try something new, or maybe everyone agrees on a new plan. Either way there's some sort of progress, and so far all discussions are surprisingly friendly; compared what I've seen in other alliances (Taggart, FIX towards the end, Tortuga) this is a pleasant surprise. Still a shame, 0.0-EVE lives to a large extent from people like ET, Blacklight and others.

[Comstar]

compared what I've seen in other alliances (Taggart, FIX towards the end, Tortuga) this is a pleasant surprise. Still a shame, 0.0-EVE lives to a large extent from people like ET, Blacklight and others.

AAA isn't under any pressure from anyone, so it's not really like FIX or Tortuga. If anyone ever invades them, that will be the point they need to pull together or fall apart. Fortunately for AAA, after the Esotoria fiasco of GS/ZAF failure and the need to fight IT it means their western border is secure, CVA will never expand out of providence and ATLAS is buy getting moongold up north so there is no one to put pressure on them.

[MahrinSkel]

An alliance doesn't just fold overnight unless it was so new it lacked time to really gel.  Most alliances die over the course of a 6-9 month period, generally because of some internal event that may not even have seemed significant at the time (the betrayal of Black Avatar and giving the 49-U station to MC by FIX leadership was the "trigger event" for FIX).  An alliance leader's departure *can* be such a trigger event, especially if he ruled by keeping all the other leaders in contention against each other, or simply brooked no rivals.

If the moral is to the physical as the three is to the one, it's more like thirty to one to the virtual.  Most alliances die on the map because the espirit de corps that held them together actually died months before.  It's rare that force majeure leads to such a radical military reversal that the alliance just loses all morale instantly (note that BoB/RKK survived for months as a force in being after the Haargoth Incident).  Even grinding D2 down took 3 months of kicking their asses across the entire North with tactics they simply weren't prepared to match (mass carriers in direct combat, only McFIX *had* enough carriers to make it work at the time, everyone else had maximized Dread count).  Only when Triumvirate Mk1 attacked them from the other direction and it became obvious total military defeat was only weeks away, and that only because even MC logistics couldn't stage the POS needed any faster, did D2 fold on the map, but the total and complete disaster that was their attempt to save IRON (following on the heels of the F-T honeypot) that exposed them as a paper tiger, all numbers and no doctrine, is what created the sense of inevitable doom that became self-fulfilling.

If AAA suffers a vacuum of leadership that leads (in the perception of the membership) to a significant territorial loss, ET's departure could become such a trigger.  It takes both internal rot and external pressure to crack an alliance.  If I were plotting a *military* strategy to exploit the opportunity, I'd throw weight behind CVA (they are at war with AAA right now, yes?) and try to split off Eastern Catch.  Not to actually keep it, but to remind AAA that FAT is the Hope Diamond of Eve.  Still, real victory will require that pressure forcing open cracks in AAA's internal political structure that ET's leadership was holding closed.  And probably at least one of AAA's major allies leaving them hung out to dry, either because they only trusted ET or because they have their own problems.  I'd expect GIA is trying to figure that out as we speak.

This is the major weakness of "Cult of Personality" dictatorships in Eve: If the central figure is removed from the picture, all the internal politics go into overdrive regardless of how smoothly power is transferred.  Republics (de jure like FIX, or de facto like GS) have far more flexibility.

--Dave

[Comstar]

the betrayal of Black Avatar and giving the 49-U station to MC by FIX leadership was the "trigger event" for FIX

I'd never heard of this story, when did MC take control of 49-?

If I were plotting a *military* strategy to exploit the opportunity, I'd throw weight behind CVA (they are at war with AAA right now, yes?) and try to split off Eastern Catch.

I still have 20 assault frigs fitted out in 25S and FAT and would love to get them back, but since when is CVA ever done an offensive war since they kicked out UK? It was my impression they have providence, no one else wants providence and AAA use and consider iit nothing more than as a live fire training area with moving targets.  The only way to attack western catch is via Goonswarm, though I suppose you could attack the old IAC stations from Curse, but no one seems to have an interest in doing so either (and would probably need both Goonswarm AND CVA to help, because ROL/Sys-K/Stain and to a lesser extent ATLAS would suddenly feel a foot on their logistical throat if someone other than AAA goes for HED).

[calapine]

Might be old news, but...

CONCORD Outer Region Political Summary (CORPS) Briefing CCP approved 0.0 news!

While most of the galaxy has seen little in terms of territorial conflict over the last few weeks, all eyes have turned to watch the growing war in the south-western area of the map as IT Alliance continues their assault on Pandemic Legion and their allies.

[...]

The initial battle which lasted just over three hours drew in capsuleer fleets supporting both sides from multiple alliances and involved the use of every ship class available to the participants. Estimates of the number of ships involved exceeded three hundred capital class ships, of which over two hundred have been confirmed as destroyed. Hundreds more battleships and over a dozen Titans were deployed as the fight progressed. Final counts showed over twelve hundred ships destroyed in the space of three hours for this single battle.

Calapine

[MahrinSkel]

the betrayal of Black Avatar and giving the 49-U station to MC by FIX leadership was the "trigger event" for FIX

I'd never heard of this story, when did MC take control of 49-?

Should have been "Nationalization with intent to give to MC".  Taking an entire station away from the corp that built it, the second most powerful in the alliance (economically and militarily), and kicking them out on a thin pretext when they objected, took the heart out of FIX (and made the *most* powerful corp, with their own station, realize that the FIX doctrine of "Stronger corps make a stronger Alliance" had been thrown out the window, the new order was a cult of personality where the central authority didn't want to *ask* CEO's for anything).  The actual withdrawal from Querious 9 months later was just a formality.

If I were plotting a *military* strategy to exploit the opportunity, I'd throw weight behind CVA (they are at war with AAA right now, yes?) and try to split off Eastern Catch.

I still have 20 assault frigs fitted out in 25S and FAT and would love to get them back, but since when is CVA ever done an offensive war since they kicked out UK? It was my impression they have providence, no one else wants providence and AAA use and consider iit nothing more than as a live fire training area with moving targets.  The only way to attack western catch is via Goonswarm, though I suppose you could attack the old IAC stations from Curse, but no one seems to have an interest in doing so either (and would probably need both Goonswarm AND CVA to help, because ROL/Sys-K/Stain and to a lesser extent ATLAS would suddenly feel a foot on their logistical throat if someone other than AAA goes for HED).

BTW, typo, I meant "Western Catch".  FAT because it is at a maximum distance from AAA's core worlds and from their allies, and because it's a very shiny chunk of rock in its own right.  I wouldn't keep it (find someone for whom a rich constellation in a permanent conflict zone is an improvement, and give it to them), and I'd make it very clear I *didn't* want HED (and wouldn't let CVA have it either).  Diplomatically, you've got to convince AAA's allies that this isn't a fight to the death, or a threat to them, just a test to see if AAA is worth anything on their own without ET.  You're not going to get a conclusive, final battle out of it, what you want is a humiliation for AAA that makes them doubt themselves, and makes everyone (inside and outside of AAA) start making contingency plans for what they need to do if AAA can't hold without ET.

--Dave

[Endie]

AAA is either friendly (Stainwagon, ROL) or tacitly non-aggressive (Solar, Death) with everyone in their timezone.  They made their bed and are suffering as a result.  This is what people like me were saying months ago, and I'll keep saying it even more now that conquest requires shared timezones.

Even if AAA were to die today, they would forever be remembered as the alliance who killed IAC and, umm.. KOS and... well, they roamed Providence a bit.  A legacy none can doubt.

[Meester]

NC whine thread although who gives a damn about Geminate?

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1240013

[Endie]

NC whine thread although who gives a damn about Geminate?

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1240013

If the anomaly system worked then geminate would be awesome: 16 tech moons and easy empire links through both gates and jumps. 

[Sir T]

I said in a post on the game dev forum that I could see dominion creating a situation that the big boys fought to claim theregions next to empire and left the rest of 0.0 to rot.

I'm starting to feel a little bit smug now.

Oh and apparently RA and Solar Fleet are blue to atlas now.

[Endie]

I said in a post on the game dev forum that I could see dominion creating a situation that the big boys fought to claim theregions next to empire and left the rest of 0.0 to rot.

I'm starting to feel a little bit smug now.

Oh and apparently RA and Solar Fleet are blue to atlas now.

You can feel smug if you like but it's not actually happening, anywhere.

And is the solar/ra thing just the same "omg how could they betray us so?" goon panic from a week ago over temp-blueing for specific fights or something new and actually real? Please give a source on major, game-changing stuff like that. 

[setar]

Quesa, SCH: "We are Temp-NAP'd with Solar, yes. RA is not NAP'd and no standing orders for them."

RA/NC seem to be shooting each other though.

[JustinMead]

An alliance doesn't just fold overnight unless it was so new it lacked time to really gel.  Most alliances die over the course of a 6-9 month period, generally because of some internal event that may not even have seemed significant at the time (the betrayal of Black Avatar and giving the 49-U station to MC by FIX leadership was the "trigger event" for FIX).  An alliance leader's departure *can* be such a trigger event, especially if he ruled by keeping all the other leaders in contention against each other, or simply brooked no rivals.

BRUCE kinda just up and died depending on the way you look at it. It all started with the main fc's starting to show a burnout then fried stepping down.

[Endie]

Quesa, SCH: "We are Temp-NAP'd with Solar, yes. RA is not NAP'd and no standing orders for them."

RA/NC seem to be shooting each other though.

Heh, you believed Quesa. He is not a very truthful individual.

It sure is going to be a quandary for RA regarding whether to get their belongings out of Insmother and SP now. Are those positive standings granted by Atlas et al so that they can dock in order to do so real? Or is quesa telling the truth?

Today, at a meeting of the alliance was to take key decisions - exhibiting the positive Standings alliances Atlas, COW, Gentlemen Club at the time of hostilities in the region Geminate (2-3 months). Standings will be on display tomorrow at 16.00 on Eve. All mimbar RA will be given to dock at the station in insmazere \ skalding passer for the removal of their belongings (remaining there since time immemorial). After the operation in geminate, stands will be reset to neutral.

These are facts. And now, a little "why":
As time passes, we change, the world changes around us, and also, changing Eve. Those who yesterday was a friend, was not at all a friend. Those who were the enemy - are ready to support us, and offer what you need in our alliance.

Let us not deceive each other, RED can be bigger and better than what it is today. At various times, he contributed to the decline of different people. Our task - to revive him.
However, in the modern Eve, alone, our alliance will not be able to compete with such giants as the UK or the Atlas. And that's OK, because Only by joining forces with reliable allies, sharing common goals with us, we can win something and to hold (which is much harder).
These allies for us are the Legion of xXDEATHXx and Solar Fleet. We share common interests - the creation of the coalition, which would be able to help in defending their territories. The purpose of a decent, and, most importantly, achievable.

However, even collecting this coalition, it is difficult to resist the constant onslaught of meat from the north. I do not think anyone will argue that it is difficult to fight in the 300 against blob in the 800. Against this enemy, we need strategic partners - at the moment is the atlases. They tell us no friends, not friends. Nobody can guarantee that we will not be with them more than ever to fight (in fact, I am confident that we will), but these people are willing to help, and offer their help. And such aid, against a strong opponent, we will take.

At the moment, from this temporary alliance RED will station in geminate and tehnetsiumnye moon. What would give a very good income in ally Valleta (hence, compensation, cap navy, etc., etc.).
If further progress is to be successful - get even more. Opyatzhe will probably talk about our Space in insmazere. But to have all this, we should all make an effort to show that we are able to fly at ACT and achieve their goals.

Therefore, I want all mimbar RED Alliance realized that everything we do - we do for the alliance and for you. I want you to think about it, having overcome the emotions and support leadership building, which was on this board.

We do not lose anything anyway. But we can get a great deal. Must try to be friendly and strong, and all we get.

Not that I care. I give not two shits about Atlas. We've been blue and we've been red. So what?

[setar]

Since this is going to leak anyway (and since I expect ET to make the announcement on CAOD at some point): AAA is under new leadership; Manfred Sideous (HAVOC) is in charge as of this Sunday, with VSlash continuing to handle finances and industry. As ET pointed out on the russian forums, RAT will be dismantled in the next few months and assets transferred.

End of an era, really. That said, smoothed alliance transition of this scope I've witnessed so far.

[MahrinSkel]

Manfred Sideous?  Oh, those sorry bastards are *fucked*.  I know Manfred, rather well, and although his involvement in FIX's woes was obviously never honest misunderstanding (never trust a spy, you never know where their loyalties are, or if they even have any), it's nice to know we were dealing with the snake itself, and not just an alt.

--Dave

[setar]

Heh. Odd, I always found Manfred one of the few sane and trustworthy folks in FIX, and couldn't be happier with him in charge.

[Sir T]

Heh. All I'll say is I'm reminded of some "smooth leadership changes" in IAC

[setar]

Not claiming that this will work out, at all. For all I know the whole thing might collapse at the first problem. The transition however was handled without any emo, which to me is a novelty ;)

[Sir T]

Fair enough!   

[Endie]

Goonswarm leadership changes, even the dramatic ones like when Remedial, the founder, stole everything and headed for the border*, have always been smooth, no matter how dire the surrounding circumstances.  There's a ritual to them, of course: Epsilon will make the usual hilarious call for an election; penifSmash or an equivalent will announce that they are the new leader on CAOD and people will still fall for it.  But everyone just shrugs and gets on with it.

Of course, it's a truism in Eve to say that things are a bit different in Goonswarm vOv

*Edit: Rem wasn't de jure leader at the time.  He just thought he should be.

[MahrinSkel]

Heh. Odd, I always found Manfred one of the few sane and trustworthy folks in FIX, and couldn't be happier with him in charge.

Notice I didn't say *which* set of sorry bastards.  Manfred is either the very best possible choice, or the very worst.  I guess it depends on where his loyalties lay.

--Dave

[Simond]

Now waiting for a Mittani announcement about clearing out -A-'s hangers and disbanding the alliance. 

[Meester]

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png

According to todays map Quality Assurance lost sov. Perhaps the Jovians kicked them out in retaliation for the motherships?
 

[Phildo]

Can anyone address the allegation that Evil Thug has been helping run Goonswarm for the last five months?

Evil Thug has spent the past 5 or so months helping run your alliance if you must know. That has got to be pretty embarrassing but it will be alot more embarrassing later and there is not fuck all that can be done about it either. He will continue in that capacity until needed as far as I know. He has not been in operational control of -A- for the last many months during RAT's and the alliances re-organization. A re-organization which apparently went un-noticed by you goons due to you being utterly inept and scared to fucking death of us. Not that you shouldn't be.

In any event, our re-organization is nearing completion just in time for you to realize it was even occurring. I will repeat here what we have been telling you faggots for the past 6 months or so....bring your weak ass to any part of the 1/3rd of EVE's territory which we or our allies control and prove that we are pretending to be a "worthwhile alliance". And quit with the chicken shit "we dont want your shitty space" meme you fucking pussies. In the meantime we will continue flying through NOL ganking random faggots on our way to casually helping to destroy the once respectable PL and their lackeys for shits and giggles.

What you see happening now in EVE that YOU cannot see is pretty much a race to Berlin. And you are sitting in the Führerbunker.