War

[setar]

Thanks, I indeed only caught one of those reports. Don't think we've found an effective way to handle well-led bomber squads yet, but it's amazing how much you can stall a larger force that hasn't adapted to their presence yet.

[Endie]

Endie, I wasn't actually trolling GS -- with the exception of RA most of those incidents are NC-related and not really GS's problem. I'd be hard pressed to explain why the CO2 reset was the fault of GS, for example. Likewise for TNT.

BRICK was an omission, but the linked battle report should make it obvious that there was heavy GS involvement. Twice the number of ships lost in the AAA/Atlas - GS skirmish means I must have been looking at a subset of the battle report. Not that it matters, but are you sure those were all battleships? If so, yikes.

As for RA I'm actually merely probing. Last time the general theme was that while they might have changed they are still the good russians not bought out by aluminium tycoons and deserve help which they arguably received. Question simply is whether this is still true, or whether it's going to tilt towards 'this is no longer the RA who fought with us' side.

Trolling or not, I *like* what is currently happening. Lots of wars at a smaller scale, and I didn't expect to see those before Dominion.

I've not picked up any shift on the RA issue.  GF is a lot more sceptical of friend-worship post-AAA reset, it's true, but people rush to eulogise RA, Rebellion and xDeathx achievements and are a bit too forgiving of their flaws.  A split would have been more likely if we were still stuck in the east within harrassment range of Ultima Ratio.  Whether we will maintain a semi-permanent presence over there as we did with the GFFL in the run-up to Dominion I just don't know.  But Mister Vee is very keen still to do so and the successes he is having are certainly still getting goons involved.

You're right that I was talking about all subcaps in the Goons vs AAA/Atlas skirmishes, but the BS kills were still a good 60%+ higher, as Sir T points out, even just counting the big ones.  We've also been getting things like the odd jump freighter kill, too.

Here's a genuine, non-trolling question: given that with the departure of the NC, PL and Goon fleets AAA and Atlas plus allies are now massively outnumbering RA and xDeathx in that theatre.  Is there any cognitive dissonance about the anti-blobbing rhetoric of past months or is it just a case of "sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander"?  Just about every war in the current version of Eve features a large disparity in numbers (one reason I hope Dominion is extremely radical), so I really don't care about this.  But it's been quite a refrain, so I'm intrigued how it is seen culturally now the boot is on the other foot.  I did see one AAA member ruefully joking about it, but I forget where.

[trevorreznik]

Bombers look pretty fun right now, looks like it's finally doable for a dozen or so people playing in their enemy's primetime to have a pretty big impact.

On another note, how the hell does atlas have 6 titans?

I suspect that their trawl of the GBC, IRON et al after various blocs collapsed netted them a few.  I'm more surprised that they don't have more.  ZAF by themselves have a dozen titans.

A dozen?  So there's what, 250+ now in game at a guess based on that?  Good thing they're being 'fixed.'

Thanks, I indeed only caught one of those reports. Don't think we've found an effective way to handle well-led bomber squads yet, but it's amazing how much you can stall a larger force that hasn't adapted to their presence yet.

I'm still not totally clear how this is happening but it's been a long time since I've played eve or done pos shooting.   Bombs take 15 seconds to fly, right?  So unless dictors are bubbling you, can't BSes just warp out each time a bomber wave comes in?  I do realize that you'd end up not killing much of anything but with sufficient covops you could bounce between them and keep sniping at the jammer pretty effectively. 

In all honesty, a group of 20 players in dictors with a few gunners and covops could stop jammer shoots over the last few years, it's just that no one bothered to do or coordinate it most of the time.

[setar]

Endie, my guess is people will always find reasons and justifcations to 'outblob' the other side. For RA the argument might be similar to the one used vs BOB, i.e. to finally close this chapter. I don't see -A- resetting Atlas or the Stain-residents anytime soon, although I'd not be surprised if smaller PVP-entities like the Initiative decided to reset us for some mutual shooting.

All of that is moot though if a large scale fight happens. There will be temp blues (on both sides, I guess) to get in on capital fights, and if an attack turns into an invasion I am sure Atlas would be there to help -A- even after a reset, just as I'd expect PL to show up to support GS in Delve if needed. Executive summary: no, don't expect us to be any better in the do-not-blob department, really.

[Endie]

No, I fully understand the perfectly sensible rationale for bringing more numbers to the fight than the other guy.  I was more wondering how that affected those who have been most vocal about the opposition's "lack of skill and need to bring more numbers" etc...  In GF, we've had times when we needed Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact-esque turnarounds in rhetoric (a good example that you're well aware of was when be set MC blue), and it usually lead to internal trolling of those most associated with the old rhetoric who are now adopting the new one.  Our Blaster Worms, you might say (I know he's now a ROL member).

[rand]

we had a window of opportunity where nc/pl/mt/us were all in the area and could've provoked a fight with atlas by hitting a station system or something but everyone whined about blueballs and went home, Atlas won the south

[setar]

I think those vocal folks are now in PL. In all seriousness, there are a fair number of folks who feel we have entirely too many blues, but as long as we do not end up in constant battles with 600 folks per side in system it hasn't become an issue just yet. Or if it is it's at least not being openly raised.

[Endie]

Molle and his IT Alliance went around reinforcing no fewer than seven lowsec and 0.0 moons, belonging to the Northern Coalition and Pandemic Legion, at the start of the weekend.  Obviously, his ambitions to claim space in 0.0 require rather more cash than selling off old gifts from Aurora and the ISD can fund, so this is the second attempt he's made to sieze R64 moons over the last month.

The moons came out over several hours throughout the course of Sunday night and Monday morning.  Needless to say, IT Alliance got run out of town after receiving a darn good thrashing at the hands of the NC/GS Euro TZ.  They decided not not make a play for the later moons, which suggests that they still need to grow even more in order to challenge in that timezone.

I'm having trouble working out what their goal will be come November.  Perhaps they hope that AAA/Atlas/Stainwagon can take on Goonswarm/Zaf/Rebellion while they occupy the Northern Coalition, but everything so far suggests that they could at best pester the North or PL, but that one of those two would be free to act as a reserve.  It's quite a strategic challenge for a Swede with a virtually unbroken record of failure stretching back almost four years.

[Sir T]

And the sad thing is they got the Klingon Empire ( ) to distract the Goons by camping NOL, in order to delay the goons and ensure victory. What happened was that the Klingons got spanked in a decidadly Ferangi fashion, though goons were delayed somewhat.

Atlas allaince did take the oppritunity to down the jammer in 3ae (while the 20 goons they are terrified of would be away) as part of their campagn against the red alliance. The towers come out wensday right after DT.

[Sir T]

Well it was this morning. I cant do math.

Atlas basically shoved their entire alliance into the system and sat them there, rather than have to knock out the jammer under bomber fire. Needless to say every tower was destroyed and the system is lost. Despite Atlas doing stupid shit like warping Titans on to bubbles at gates and then warping all their carriers into the same bubbles in a panic.

vOv

[Darius JOHNSON]

Molle and his IT Alliance went around reinforcing no fewer than seven lowsec and 0.0 moons, belonging to the Northern Coalition and Pandemic Legion, at the start of the weekend.  Obviously, his ambitions to claim space in 0.0 require rather more cash than selling off old gifts from Aurora and the ISD can fund, so this is the second attempt he's made to sieze R64 moons over the last month.

The moons came out over several hours throughout the course of Sunday night and Monday morning.  Needless to say, IT Alliance got run out of town after receiving a darn good thrashing at the hands of the NC/GS Euro TZ.  They decided not not make a play for the later moons, which suggests that they still need to grow even more in order to challenge in that timezone.

I'm having trouble working out what their goal will be come November.  Perhaps they hope that AAA/Atlas/Stainwagon can take on Goonswarm/Zaf/Rebellion while they occupy the Northern Coalition, but everything so far suggests that they could at best pester the North or PL, but that one of those two would be free to act as a reserve.  It's quite a strategic challenge for a Swede with a virtually unbroken record of failure stretching back almost four years.

IT couldn't occupy any single major alliance you've listed on their own. They can't afford to lose a single capfleet and there's nothing immediately distracting they could really do without it. Esp. given the fact that they can actually be bubbled or dd'd in 0.0.

[Endie]

Molle and his IT Alliance went around reinforcing no fewer than seven lowsec and 0.0 moons, belonging to the Northern Coalition and Pandemic Legion, at the start of the weekend.  Obviously, his ambitions to claim space in 0.0 require rather more cash than selling off old gifts from Aurora and the ISD can fund, so this is the second attempt he's made to sieze R64 moons over the last month.

The moons came out over several hours throughout the course of Sunday night and Monday morning.  Needless to say, IT Alliance got run out of town after receiving a darn good thrashing at the hands of the NC/GS Euro TZ.  They decided not not make a play for the later moons, which suggests that they still need to grow even more in order to challenge in that timezone.

I'm having trouble working out what their goal will be come November.  Perhaps they hope that AAA/Atlas/Stainwagon can take on Goonswarm/Zaf/Rebellion while they occupy the Northern Coalition, but everything so far suggests that they could at best pester the North or PL, but that one of those two would be free to act as a reserve.  It's quite a strategic challenge for a Swede with a virtually unbroken record of failure stretching back almost four years.

IT couldn't occupy any single major alliance you've listed on their own. They can't afford to lose a single capfleet and there's nothing immediately distracting they could really do without it. Esp. given the fact that they can actually be bubbled or dd'd in 0.0.

Yeah, that's why I said "pester" and "come November".  We've yet to see the station-taking mechanic, and the sov-taking seems pretty easy to cockblock with three minutes of dominance over a 36-hour period, but there is always the chance that there may be a degree to which people just can't project force across half the galaxy for long if even a medium-sized force is shooting their shit at home.

PS I hope you're posting from a motel you reckless babykiller.

[Comstar]

And Kenny dies quietly, unannounced. Kenzuko is no more.

Name     KenZoku
Ticker    RKZ
Members    0
Corporations    0


I dunno, I think Kenny is a better name than IT.

[Endie]

Not with a bang but with a whimper.

[Endie]

Not a faked killmail: http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/411460

Also, we accepted the Free Space Banderlogs or whoever they are from RA.  Alongside OEG and Rebellion I suppose it toughens up our Russian TZ a bit more for the inevitable assault on us.  I know what they used to be like, but that was about 18 months ago now at the most recent.

[setar]

RA seems to be moving out, destination unknown (SHC is speculating about Curse for now). That, and the NC is trying to broker a deal with evoke. Not sure I'd have Mynas handle this given the MC/evoke tensions in Tortuga ;-)

[Phildo]

You guys fought AAA and seem to be getting along alright, so who knows?

[setar]

I take it you never had the pleasure of negotiating with Mynas

[Meester]

That, and the NC is trying to broker a deal with evoke.

Giving Cloud Ring to the moon mineral exploiters? Probably a bad idea.

[Sir T]

That, and the NC is trying to broker a deal with evoke.

Giving Cloud Ring to the moon mineral exploiters? Probably a bad idea.

Evoke was the fall guy for CCP in that. It was pretty widespread beyond that.

Anyway I have to say, bieng fair, that RAs defence was pretty painful to watch. Good to see the last of the old RA corps in Goonswarm.

[Fordel]

So is RA finally dead?

Like, real dead?

[Sir T]

It still exists and they still have a constelation in the drones. C-J has fallen as of yesterday however.

[setar]

Evoke was the fall guy for CCP in that. It was pretty widespread beyond that.

Absolutely agreed, don't think we ever got more than a glimpse of the real story. Still, I was chuckling when it surfaced -- one of evoke's main arguments against Tortuga was that everyone was interested in ISK, i.e., who gets access to what PB region and moons, unlike them who were not interested in mundane, greedy negotiations. Given their income base there probably wasn't any need to.

[IainC]

They may well have been the fall guys for the Ferrogel exploit however they were still as guilty as hell. They even said so publicly after all the bans went down. As I understand it a lot of other corps and individuals in other alliances also got whacked but Ev0ke were the [only|loudest] ones to go public about it.

[trevorreznik]

It still exists and they still have a constelation in the drones. C-J has fallen as of yesterday however.

Jesus, so the two most historically major/important/whatever alliances of EVE both died within 6 or so months of each other?  And both with a whimper, not a bang?  Pretty surprising.

[Endie]

It still exists and they still have a constelation in the drones. C-J has fallen as of yesterday however.

Jesus, so the two most historically major/important/whatever alliances of EVE both died within 6 or so months of each other?  And both with a whimper, not a bang?  Pretty surprising.

Two of the three most historically major/important/whatever.  The third is still alive.

[Phildo]

Yeah, but Trevor probably didn't want to pat himself on the back about -A-.

[MahrinSkel]

Of the powers that defined the origins of the Great War (LV, BoB, D2, RA), it seems that none of them survive.  Goons were still riding the RA coat-tails at that point (lots of numbers but no fleet doctrine and no capfleet).

--Dave

[Fordel]

What was the Order of death? D2, LV, BoB then now RA?

[MahrinSkel]

LV, then D2.  LV lost their first titan when Chowdown was outed as a dev, and their second during construction, after that they kind of collapsed.  D2 got rolled by McFIX's march across the North a few months later, right after the F-T honeypot.

--Dave

[Endie]

Of the powers that defined the origins of the Great War (LV, BoB, D2, RA), it seems that none of them survive.  Goons were still riding the RA coat-tails at that point (lots of numbers but no fleet doctrine and no capfleet).

You have to be pretty weird about the definition of influential powers (which is why, I suspect, you used the term "defined the origins") in order to exclude Goons like that.  We were hugely influential - I'd say the key factor, but you might say that was BoB - in turning what was otherwise just another big war (of the sort that claimed FA, CA, ASCN etc) into The Great War.  The Smoske incident was the sig read around the world, and the fact that a power is ill-prepared for the rigours of a war at its start (hello USA) doesn't mean it isn't key, or even the determinant.  You see, Eve is a lot like World War II...

Who nurtured the grudge from Syndicate and intentionally shaped the power blocs of Eve to prosecute it in what was openly claimed to be a Vernichtungskrieg?  Who, indeed, turned Eve Online into a game of massive, interlinked power blocs?  At the start of the Great War proper, Goons were fighting against Bob and their allies pretty much alone: I remember being greatly encouraged when RA would turn up, but it wasn't a nightly thing.  When we won pretty much our first stand-up fleet fight against Bob in sniper doctrine, I was there in 9-9, and we were pretty much solo in Euro time.  Trying to say that Goons were not a key factor at the time is exactly the mistake that Bob made, too, and the result was 46DP and a march across the south.

The fact is that five went in, two came out, and only one is left.

Also, you're wrong on the order of events in the precursor war against LV: Chowdown's outing happened well after the loss of the baby titan, and the titan abortion was probably less important than the time that they did use their titan, but it turned out tto be ineffectual in stopping Goonfleet, who (contrary to your assertion) very definitely had a strategically hugely effective fleet doctrine, just not a conventional one that our enemies could deal with.  The doomsday (which only killed ships, after all) didn't matter, and an overwhelmingly Goonswarm force took the system anyway.

[Sir T]

When was Chowdown outed as a dev? I remember The Enslaver bieng outed as a GM, but that was long after LV fell, and Chowdown was still active in BOB long into the war. He was throwing fleets with his titan about when IAC and AAA assaulted ED-, for example.

Having Chowdown as yet another Dev is extra LOL for me,  esp considering Mollie is now riding around in his titan. :D

[Endie]

No, Himo, I think you're right.  I also believe that Zastrow referred to the Developer Formerly Known as The Enslaver as Chowdown throughout the length of the CSM meetings.

[JustinMead]

just as I'd expect PL to show up to support GS in Delve if needed.

 

[trevorreznik]

It still exists and they still have a constelation in the drones. C-J has fallen as of yesterday however.

Jesus, so the two most historically major/important/whatever alliances of EVE both died within 6 or so months of each other?  And both with a whimper, not a bang?  Pretty surprising.

Two of the three most historically major/important/whatever.  The third is still alive.

Well I don't know as much about early EVE, but really BoB/RA struck me as the guys that were there from the start.  -A- and TCF splintered from RA, LV sprung up almost as if they were people who wanted to be in BoB but not allowed in (I have no idea about LV's history), etc.  D2 was huge early on, but I still consider MH to be D2 (or the NC as d2's real successor) no matter how wrong that is.  

GS could be put in with bob/ra solely based on how the timezone coverages work (since BoB dominated eu tz, RA russian and GS american), but it doesn't make as much sense historically.  No arguing that GS is now the preeminent power though.