War

[Kovacs]

Is ED/IRC even fighting back ?  I took a peek at the goon kb, and there's really not much in the way of battle reports going on there.  I take it they're calling us tz ops, show up and see they're outnumbered, and call them off?

Well there was a call out last night and vent had 75'ish people in channell for at least a few hours, with the occassional Fleet Invitation so I assume there was something going on.  I personally didn't catch much as we were finally allowed into vent. en masse so we spent the night online'ing towers.  I'm hoping there was something going on in Malpais LO5. 

[trevorreznik]

That's pretty bad for irc/ed-75 people aren't going to accomplish anything in EVE.  It's pretty much the worst fleet size to have, because you can't do POS stuff, and are too big to do roaming.

[Jayce]

Not allowed into Vent?  Byzantine method to register on forums?

Problem spotted...

[Comstar]

News from the GoonFleetForeignLegion, somewhere in the drone regions:

IRC, ED, ATLAS and S0E outnumbered our fleet 3 to 1 while we deployed a tower. Despite these numbers, they refused to engage us apart from 3 bombers who killed 4 rifters (cost, 1million) and lost a bomber (cost, 20million).

XdeathX deployed an upsupported dread fleet to attack IRC starbases and their BS fleet warped away to attack XDX dreads in the next system. We jumped into to attack their support...when the scout was saying we were still outnumbered 2 to 1.

We killed a lot of them, more of us died I think. Remains of our fleet bounced around safe spots till some unsung hero found a XdeathX POS to stay in.

Meanwhile, XdeathX DD'd the hostile BS fleet and practically wiped it out.

Later on we cought up with their remains of their BS fleet as their fleet slowboated through their own bubbles and killed about 7 BS without loss.

[Sir T]

IRC, ED, ATLAS and S0E outnumbered our fleet 3 to 1 while we deployed a tower. Despite these numbers, they refused to engage us apart from 3 bombers who killed 4 rifters (cost, 1million) and lost a bomber (cost, 20million).

Lies!

They killed an Osprey too.

Oh and Pandemic Legion/Kraftwerk just killed a COW Titan

https://www.pandemic-legion.com/killboard/view_kill.php?id=201645

[Edit]We were fagging around and this dropped into our lap

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/384653

Looks like he might have been pulling IRC's entire BPO collection out, though why he undocked with hostiles in local and on the station is beyond me.

[Meester]

TCF also had a fight with White Noise, ERROR and one or two Triumvirate in Venal where they killed a mothership and a few carriers. All White Noise capitals I believe.

[Jayce]

[Edit]We were fagging around and this dropped into our lap

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/384653

Looks like he might have been pulling IRC's entire BPO collection out, though why he undocked with hostiles in local and on the station is beyond me.

 

[Gets]

Atlas and -A- reset Aggression.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1112715

Ed > Atlas the other day attempted to screw Aggression by giving our space away to another alliance. Upon confrontation with this info to Bobby Atlas, he denied everything, even tho ive perfect proof.Bobby insted has reset us.

Bobby Atlas > please feel free to quote me, aggression being reset is an indicator of your leaders failures, not your membership, atlas is not coming to siege your towers or space, you can all part ways without our interference

Raieth Crimson > show me where Bobby Atlas lives ill put two in his head, just get me into the US and out again. ill have it done in 24hours.
Charmin > he's canadian

[Koyochi]

http://img29.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=20090704174847.jpg

Nice to see. I thought we didn't had anything left any more after all the thefts on us.

[Sir T]

[Edit]We were fagging around and this dropped into our lap

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/384653

Looks like he might have been pulling IRC's entire BPO collection out, though why he undocked with hostiles in local and on the station is beyond me.

 

Actually thge full story is this guy (the alt of the alliances leader) warped to the station from a jump bridge (The station was being camped by hostiles)

He lands in a bubble, THEN cloaks.

He was then decloaked by a drake and raped.

Everyone in the station then undocks repeatedly to try and get to the wreck and was ripped apart

While that's going on, one of our interceptors scoops the bpos and safespots.

Profit of around 300billion.

Atlas and -A- reset Aggression.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1112715

Wow, colour me shocked. That's not the kind of caring camaraderie I expect from the other side.

[MahrinSkel]

Actually thge full story is this guy (the alt of the alliances leader) warped to the station from a jump bridge (that was being camped by hostiles)

He lands in a bubble, THEN cloaks.

He was then decloaked by a drake and raped.

Everyone in the station then undocks repeatedly to try and get to the wreck and was ripped apart

While that's going on, one of our interceptors scoops the bpos and safespots.

Profit of around 300billion.

Wow.  I've done some pretty ballsy (read: stupid) stuff in CovOps, but even I would have shown a bit more caution with that many BPO/BPC in my cargo.  Pre-scanning my destination from safe-spots, cloaking up while I was warping, etc.  You have to do something stupid to get killed in a CovOps, and he managed 3 of them; Not knowing the conditions of his destination, warping uncloaked with hostiles in system, not fitting an MWD (A passive shield tank?  On a Covert?  Really?) to burn away from the bubble.  Bet he got de-cloaked trying to slow-boat straight to the station.

--Dave

[lac]

Look at that Atlas, resetting people and everything. Its like seeing that retard from prep school taking over his daddy's business. While its cute and all, you just know it isn't going to end well for anybody involved.
Despite ex-BoB's wettest dreams the coalition isn't dissolving but instead is plinking away those alliances that aren't part of it. That is some seriously scary shit for some southerners, I'd imagine.

On that covops thing, I wouldn't be surprised if it was his first one, thinking 'I'll need to sneak this stuff out, I'll do it in a covops and be invisble and all'.

[Sparky]

Grim day for the bad guys.  I love watching this headless chicken stuff.

[Endie]

Grim day for the bad guys.  I love watching this headless chicken stuff.

Oh, you should see it from the inside #:V

Edit: the # was unintentional there but that emoticon looks downright racist now.

[Endie]

[Edit]We were fagging around and this dropped into our lap

http://killboard.goonfleet.com/km/384653

Looks like he might have been pulling IRC's entire BPO collection out, though why he undocked with hostiles in local and on the station is beyond me.

Have you had the chance to speak to someone in the gang and see if they were actually BPOs?  I'm surprised they appear as stacked, either way.  I think the KMs always show them all as the same, whether BPOs or BPCs though.

[Kovacs]

Well the official Alliance response is out.  Yeah we all have to learn hard lessons sometimes and boy we learned this one. 
(Pretty much word for word from Selene's response to her titan loss.)  but cheer up we have replaced all of our losses already, although if you want to contribute to the cause Please send SASE to...  

Alliance chatter has the story with him coming out of the staion and into the bubble and that it was the allinace dir.'s alt isn't well publicized.  The conventional wisdom has the total at $150 bil. which may proved a clue as to the BPO/BPC count.  Alliance chatter is full of speculation and is a good guard of the level of disillusionment by the reasons they're willing to swallow as to how you could be so unsmart??  The first in line for the Kool-aid swearing it had to be spies.  Again, not lying.

And anytime the debate is why we're losing, and not you know, anything else, you're probably not doing well.  My Very uneducated opinion is that alliance participation is the straw man to some odd FC decisions.  Odd fleet composition, splitting small fleets into even smaller fleets comes immediately to mind.  

Overall and even accounting for the fog of war the picture isn't spectacular.  Nobody's making any money for any length of time.  The impending  loss of GBWB geographically isn't awful.  Although if there was a titan.. ekkk.  Losing SLYP is going to suck pretty bad.  All'ish of the JB's are down so moving from anywhere to anyplace is starting to get some negative attention and the alliance mail saying that "We're not going to failure cascade over this..." isn't lighting a fire.  

[Nerf]

Only BPOs stack, BPCs will show up as a bunch of single stacks.

[Koyochi]

Most of them were BPO's indeed, although IRC chat values them rather at 160 billion in stead of the 300 mentioned here. Still a high value though.

Also : random mindless speculation says the loss was somehow intentional, maybe as part of a deal with one of the many alliances attacking us atm. Goons get the irc-hc-embaressment bragging rights as a gift that they seem to appreciate so much, which is probably a bigger loss for irc then all those bpo's together. Or that loss was so stupid that nobody can believe it really was an accident.

[Jayce]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/6081/bpob.jpg

Confirmed

[Endie]

Holy crap.  Even "just" 160 billion is a hundred dread hulls.  Or almost four titans.

I have to say that it sounds dubious that someone would "set it up" like that to shoot and lose them.  The 50-50 chance of cargo getting popped could have seen a huge loss there.  If there's a deal it's far better to get your inside agent to just hand them over.

One way or another it has to be someone horribly high up.  It's probably better for IRC if it was a spy rather than the decision of the directorate to get the crown jewels out.  The withdrawal of production capability to empire is both cause and symptom of failure cascade.

[Koyochi]

The 50-50 chance of cargo getting popped could have seen a huge loss there. If there's a deal it's far better to get your inside agent to just hand them over.

Yes, that would matter if goons really were financially drained by the delve conquest and needed any isk they could get out of an arrangement. However, rumour has it that goons still have some isk right now. So, if you were leading an alliance , didn't had to worry about isk, and were found of public embarrassment of your enemies ... then what would you choose ? 80 bill in (surviving) bpo's and your enemy hc making total and utter fools of themselves (again) so you can drag them down on caod, or just 160 bill in a clean and secret transaction ?

It's probably better for IRC if it was a spy rather than the decision of the directorate to get the crown jewels out. 

The character in the covops was a HC alt, and I don't think a regular spy can make him 'forget' to put his cloak on while travelling with valuable stuff. Or to make the covops forget about checking reds on his destination. What happened was either a very stupid mistake, or something setup. But to me it doesn't sound like a spy could have a hand in this.

[Koyochi]

Ow, and if the covops pilot itself would have been a spy (as you probably meant, now that I read it again), that would still not make sense. If you have stuff worth several billions in DIZ station, then the best way to export it is to just sit it out and wait until goons/xdeathx/RA have conquered the area. Because any spy within IRC is probably blue to them. I'm not sure wether the total conquest will happen soon, but the chances of that are bigger then your survival chances in a uncloaked frigate travelling to a location with reds in it.

[Fordel]

So this CovOps dropped an alliance level infrastructure kit essentially?

[Endie]

So this CovOps dropped an alliance level infrastructure kit essentially?

And Himo is on the list of folks to get shares in the compensatory blops package.  Nice work, space-rich buddy.

[Endie]

Looks like IRC are looking for a way out:

Kamikazie > hey, you got a sec
UAxDEATH > shoot
Kamikazie > I have for you the terms of a surrender for both IRC and ED
Kamikazie > bear with me theres 6 parts
Kamikazie > 1. All hostilities cease involving IRC&ED, including all Goon, Legion of xXDEATHXx, Shadow of xXDEATHXx , & RA, Ultima Ratio, Varangians, and allies fighting IRC/ED and all IRC & ED forces and their allies assisting in the fight.
Kamikazie > 2. Reciprocal BLUE settings among these entities until August 1, 2009.
3. IRC/ED will vacate Drone Region by August 1, 2009.
Kamikazie > 4. IRC/ED will begin removing POSes, except for strategic JB and similar POSes needed to remove assets – some of which may have to be reestablished.
Kamikazie > 5. IRC/ED will maintain control of respective stations while withdrawing and will turn over to XIX or designee those stations, as well as remaining Drone Region POSes, upon withdrawal, but no later than August 1, 2009.
Kamikazie > 6. No attack will be made on any construction at any arrays, including any Titans, Motherships, etc. under construction by IRC or ED.
Kamikazie > This includes all stations including the C-J
UAxDEATH > who said that i`m intrested ?
Kamikazie > Oldma, dibrel, Ralian
UAxDEATH > well tell them they are terreble misstaken
Kamikazie > ok can you elaborate
UAxDEATH > buy
UAxDEATH > *bye

[Nerf]

Those are some pretty shitty terms of surrender, whats the benefit to anyone but irc?

[Endie]

Those are some pretty shitty terms of surrender, whats the benefit to anyone but irc?

War is hell.  The end of war would be benefit enough to us all.  IRC understand this.  Let's hope that Goonfleet come to teir senses before more mindless slaughter.

Oh, and Cow just lost their dread fleet.  That's an exaggeration, of course, literally several got out, along with some carriers.  I'd link their battle report but there are 11 dreads on there showing as alive that other KBs have KMs for.  Atlas must be veeery disappointed in the allies that they threw AggressionPeriod and -V- under a bus for: to lose a titan is unfortunate.  To lose your dread fleet the next day can only be construed as incompetence.

On the other hand my spy character has been killing PL like there's no tomorrow, and they can't touch this.  I'd post said stellar stats against them but [opsec].

[Meester]

Looks like IRC are looking for a way out:

I was watching the final part of Farscape the other day and one of characters says this - "Why come to terms with an enemy that you can easily crush?"

Maybe the word 'easily' isn't needed but the meanings still there.

[Phildo]

In this case, it's not like it's possible to completely remove someone from the game.  So coming to amicable terms at the end of a conflict could be beneficial, lest IRC/ED end up doing what the GBC has and constantly reform under new names to trouble the same people over and over again.

[trevorreznik]

Those are some pretty shitty terms of surrender, whats the benefit to anyone but irc?

once someone stops fighting back, it is really, really boring to kill off their poses.  especially in this case when the space is completely unwanted.  It's essentially a repeat of a year ago in geminate.

[MahrinSkel]

There's also opportunity costs, and windows of vulnerability.  While they're fighting IRC, others may be getting up to shenanigans elsewhere, fatigue and wallet depletion is affecting their members, and so on.  To a certain extent you want to "keep the pot boiling" so your people don't lose their edge, but if you go too far it can cause problems as well.  Fighting is fun, stamping on ant-piles as you slowly grind up POS and remnants is not.  It also builds credibility the next time you *extend* terms to an opponent, makes them more likely to take them if the cost of accepting looks better than continuing a slow, grinding defeat.

Most wars in Eve are not the "War to the knife" grudgefest that characterized BoB's relations with everyone else.  Generally they were settled with a negotiated peace that left the losers with something to rebuild around.

--Dave

[Pax]

On the other hand my spy character has been killing PL like there's no tomorrow, and they can't touch this.  I'd post said stellar stats against them but [opsec].

Your GF ALT killing Awox alts doesn't count   

[Jayce]

Most wars in Eve are not the "War to the knife" grudgefest that characterized BoB's relations with everyone else.  Generally they were settled with a negotiated peace that left the losers with something to rebuild around.

It might make more rational sense to take an offer like this, but there is no way it's happening. IRC/ED betrayed the coalition at a bad time, and they messed with RA.  Between those two things alone I don't think anyone on the coalition side would be happy with a surrender agreement authored by them with nothing in it that seemed to be a concession.

POS warfare may be hell, but there are worse reasons to endure it than to curbstomp an egregious traitor.

[Endie]

Yeah the problem that IRC/ED have here is that .

It would be wrong to pretend that Goons in particular don't have a slightly more nuanced view of the responsibility here, though: IRC are pretty much hated for three, compounding sins:

1) Attacking RA towards whom we feel, despite their changes and failings over the past 15 months, a great deal of gratitude.
2) They did so while RA were helping Death against AAA/Atlas, in order to relieve pressure from us.  It took a huge effort to turn around the resulting 1917-style movement of attention and resources from east to west*.
3) They said we (Death and Goons) told them it was ok to do so.

ED are seen, rightly or wrongly, as IRC's touchingly loyal patsies, who happen to be extremely unwise in their choice of friends.

And Mahrin, I know what you mean about the tendency of losing alliances not to be thrown entirely out of their space before Bob's "we will conquer the universe" strategy in 2006, but the fact is that for several years now - perhaps as a result of that - the losers in almost every major war have been turfed out, even if they later fought back and rebuilt in the same space (e.g. the NC during the frist Great Eve War).

There are exceptions - most obvious are GF after losing Delve 1, and AAA after losing Delve 2, both of whom were the aggressors and had secure areas to which to retreat with little immediate risk of retaliation - but threats in Eve these days tend to be more existential.  This is perhaps due to the greater possibility of putting together a 60-dread fleet to tour a broken opponent's space one-cycling towers, and the more sustainable logistics frameworks offered to support such an effort due to titan bridges and jump freighters.  The tens of millions of m3 of stront alone needed per day during the most intense period of Delve 1 would have been unsupportable in late 2006.

-----------

*Laugh, damn you!  This is funny because it makes AAA ze Germans, and we have a German AAA poster here 

[Sir T]

I dont know though. Up to the mass invasion of RA space and Diara Lirs shenanigans, the IRC/ED and RA conflict was seen as one of the more interesting conflicts of 0.0, and I think most were willing to let them get on with it. Also I think the fact that RA were in the process of bieng driven out preety much the moment when the Great War II ended gave everyone an extra imputus to get over there and help out.

It is true however that most wars in eve these days are "win or die" affairs.