Raph Koster's _A Theory of Fun_ available for pre-order

[Samwise]

I'm intrigued.  How much has he added to his original presentation for this book?

[SirBruce]

Well. the book is 250 pages and the PDF presentation is 51 pages. :)

Bruce

[geldonyetich]

Maybe, but it's only $13.99.   Beats the snot out of the $50-$200 books on game design.    If it's more pages, I'm not complaining ;)

I ordered me a copy, I'll be able to give it a look in 3-5 days.

[Samwise]

Well. the book is 250 pages and the PDF presentation is 51 pages. :)

Sold!  Especially if the 199 pages is content instead of fluff.  Maybe he'll offer practical ideas for a game that puts theory into practice... dare to dream, eh?

[Roac]

I'll take a guess that the book goes to great lengths to come to the basic conclusion that what customers really want is Neal Stephenson's Primer.  If the book goes into detail on how to get there / why we want to get there, it might be an interesting read.

[Raph]

It's 110 cartoons like the original presentation. And 110 pages of text. The other pages are stuff like acknowledgements, intro, etc.

[Signe]

Of course I'll order it.  How often does someone I kinda sorta know from some place on the internet have a book published?

Ok, ok... so I have a really big bookcase full of them.  There's always room for one more.

[Sky]

I'll be able to give it a look in 3-5 days

Or in november when it comes out.

[Big Gulp]

All he needs to do now is write 'A Practice of Fun' and then apply it to SWG to stop it from sucking the very marrow of the Earth.

You play the cards you're dealt, and I'm sure Raph has to deal with internal company politics, budget restraints, etc. just like everyone else.  Is SWG something I'd like to play?  Nope.  However, he at least has the balls to push the envelope, and in a semi-attainable manner, unlike people whose desires far outpace their capability to make something a reality (Horizons, Battlecruiser).

For all of the things he's done that are questionable or ill conceived he's done 10 that are well thought out and innovative.  I'd take that track record.  And for what it's worth, I'm not even that enthusiastic about the "simulated world" idea, give me a game like City of Heroes any day.  I am able to recognize, though, someone who keeps trying to advance the genre.  When you're involved in something like that you're going to have misses, it's unavoidable.

[Raph]

The book website is now up.

http://www.theoryoffun.com

[Fargull]

Did you do the art?

I am not saying this in a bad way, but that really looks like it would fit well in a child's book.  My boy loves that style.

[Samwise]

Nice work on the cartoons!  Can't wait to get my hands on this thing now.  :D

[Jayce]

The book website is now up.

http://www.theoryoffun.com


Where can I get it?
Fine bookstores everywhere, starting in mid-November. And also at:

    * Amazon.com
    * Barnes & Noble

I don't know if any heavyweights would visit the site, but you might want to say "Barnes and Noble Online".  

"Fine bookstores, and also Barnes & Noble".  heh...

[Raph]

Yes, I did all the art.

[schild]

Yes, I did all the art.

You make cute penguins. I like penguins.



Radical, the little blue penguin above, approves your book.

[Raph]

That is the gratuitous penguin. He's labelled as such in a few places. He's sort of the books' easter egg. I have several pages worth of gratuitous penguins drawn. Alien penguins, super-penguins, sliced penguins, ninja penguins, etc. They aren't in the book though. Maybe they will show up in the merchandise (yes, I am going to have merchandise. Admit it, you want the "Online Roleplayers Rorshach Test" cartoon on a mug.)

[schild]

(yes, I am going to have merchandise. Admit it, you want the "Online Roleplayers Rorshach Test" cartoon on a mug.)

Creeping Jesus, how'd you know? I am however happy that someone else in the world seems to enjoy the bizarre mutant that is the penguin as much as me.

[SirBruce]

LOL, I was JUST about to post this and comment on it:


I love it.  The square-jawed 80s-hair-band-looking guy with breasts on the end is just priceless.

Bruce

[Cosmik]

You're saying that the reason games follow a limited formula (eg kill bad guys to end of level. Kill bigger bad guy) is because our ancestors had to seperate the things that could kill them from the things that would keep them alive within their various environments?

I'd be interested to read the studies that this statement is based on. (Or read the book too, I guess)

Unless, of course, it's way past my bedtime and I'm reading this incorrectly.

[Raph]

Uhh... yeah, you need to read the whole book. Fortunately, Amazon has it cheap. ;)

[Cosmik]

Uhh... yeah, you need to read the whole book. Fortunately, Amazon has it cheap. ;)

What a salesman. :p

I'll be sure to give it a look at. Then prepare for my incessant need to discuss psychological theories. :)

[Signe]

Penquins!  Lordy Raph... you are as big a geek as the rest of us.  It's nice to see that a huge salary, fancy title and god-like dev power has not gone to your head.  People like David Bowman try to pretend they are not geeks anymore, but only come off as pretentious closet geek bullies.  You, on the other hand, still have the same silly qualities that my old time MUD developer friends have... it's a good thing!

Now that you've published a book on fun, go forth and make me a fun game to play.  SWG is the most fascinating game I've ever seen, but it's not fun.  It's freeken hard work!  We still maintain an account because I need to own what is, fun aspect aside, the most brilliantly constructed game I've yet to see.  It's like owning a Faberge egg... you take it out and admire it from time to time, but you wouldn't think of cracking it open and having it for breakfast.

I look forward to reading your book.  It's perfect timing as we have a nice, easy going Xmas this year with very few family encounters.  (the PvP in my family can be ugly)  Because of the penguins, once finished I will shelf it with my all our coveted O'Reilly books.  (Tim O'Reilly... another alpha geek)

[Raph]

All the gripes about fun SWG are a large part of why I did the original talk and why I did the book. Basically, you guys sent me off back to basics. I've spent much of the last year playing abstract boardgames, designing boardgames, and designing puzzle games on the computer--sort of an "ABCs of basic fun."

[Samwise]

All the gripes about fun SWG are a large part of why I did the original talk and why I did the book.

Does the book contain any SWG postmortem musings?  I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on what worked, what didn't, and what might have been possible with an extra 20 million dollars of development budget.  ;)

[Cosmik]

All the gripes about fun SWG are a large part of why I did the original talk and why I did the book.

Does the book contain any SWG postmortem musings?  I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on what worked, what didn't, and what might have been possible with an extra 20 million dollars of development budget.  ;)

I would think it's the approach, rather than the lack of funds, that turned people off SWG.

[Raph]

No, it doesn't touch on SWG at all.

The range of reactions to SWG is fascinating to me. In particular, the ways in which some people see it as a top to bottom disaster, others as a mixed bag, and others as a success. There are many different reasons for those varied opinions, ranging from prior expectations to dislike of some basic premises to enjoyment of particular sorts of experiences. There's a huge number of folks whose dislike is almost entirely based in interface issues, for example. I spend a lot of time thinking about it. Someday I'll be better able to disentangle it all. I'm certainly not ready to write about it--it took me five years to really digest UO.

[schild]

Hmmm, here's my perspective on SW:G which I've always talked about hating but never got into.

Pros:
I liked the interface. It was convoluted but I thought it fit in with everything we'd seen in the Star Wars universe.

I liked the customization. I LOVED the social aspects of the game. I.e. Having to go to the cantina to heal. You can meet a lot of people there. Til they figured out how to bot dancing. Then it was a waste.

I liked the size of the world - and would have liked it more if you all could have actually filled it up.

I liked having a house I could turn into a store/cantina/whatever I wanted.

Cons:
The entire combat system was an abortion. I'd like to see the original design docs on it.

Jedi. What were you thinking? I'd like one solid answer on this. Just like a blatent apology for inflicting the world with such a stupid treadmill. You guys had enough money to come up with something more creative.

Implementation. Everything I read was nice. On paper SW:G looks great. In practice - it's crap. I'd really like to see a nice long round table on what happened and why. Ever seen the documentary "Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse" for Apocalypse Now? I'd imagine that's how an SW:G development documentary would look.

[Raph]

Talk about a thread derailing.

I am unsure there is ANY good solution to Jedi in an MMORPG. A better answer would be to leave them out, but that would have angered just as many people (one of the commonest gripes I hear is that everyone should have been a Jedi). That's part of what I mean about expectations.

Most of the other things you mentioned largely come down to tuning, really. There aren't THAT many differences between the CoH combat system and the SWG one, really. And the difference between a tuned and an untuned system can be like night and day.

But your list isn't the same as the lists of many other folks. :)

BTW, editing this book sucks, it's incredibly painful. :P Sitting pondering every word here is taking me all afternoon for 6 pages. *sigh* (Blatant attempt to get the thread back on track).

[schild]

Talk about a thread derailing.

BTW, editing this book sucks, it's incredibly painful. :P Sitting pondering every word here is taking me all afternoon for 6 pages. *sigh* (Blatant attempt to get the thread back on track).

Yea, the derailing was pretty intentional. I mean, why engage you about a book we can't read yet and don't really have access to as a whole. After it comes out I'm sure there will be lively discussion. But until then, it would be speculation - which does nothing but create fake buzz.

Or we can go the, ask you questions route - in which case:

Which part of the book speaks the most about you, in your opinion. Does it hit close to home, or is it something you've never discussed publicly? Elaborate.

[Signe]

Sorry,  Raph!  The derailing was UNintentional, at least on my part.

So... what are you wearing?

[SirBruce]

Raph,

Sounds like you've reached the editing stage where you need to give it to someone else to proofread/edit.  Best choices are someone you trust, who's in your target audience, but who isn't going to simply say nice things because they're your family member or friend or what not.  (The last part is not a big problem in the tech-related industries, but it happens frequently in others so it is standard advice.)

Bruce

[Moroni]

Yeah, if Bruce is right you're to the point where you're trying to decide if your style is good. That's like trying to determine if the way you think is good. You can't do that. Toss it to a colleague?

[Raph]

No, actually, this is AFTER getting back that feedback, and going through all the redlines and making the decisions on where I agree with their feedback and where I don't. :)

[Righ]

GK Chesterton edited many of his works. They didn't entirely suck.

[Roac]

one of the commonest gripes I hear is that everyone should have been a Jedi

One of the reasons I've heard (I believe from you, but I may be wrong) as to why "everyone" can't be a Jedi is because of fiction; there really shouldn't be any left by this date, except for Luke (or was this before Ben and Yoda died?  Close enough).

Fine.  Pick another setting.  KotR did exceptionally well for a stand alone, yet it was nowhere near the timeframe of the movies.  Skip around or just before Ep 1, or a decade after Ep 6.  You've got a couple decades, out of tens of thousands of years of history, where there aren't any Jedi to speak of.  Yet you know the coolest thing about the SW IP are Jedi.

Yes, everyone should have been a Jedi - or at least, had the opportunity to become one without the game system griefing you for it.  Why?  Because that's what your customers wanted.  Have you seen some of the lightsaber mods for Jedi Outcast?  You could've had thousands of people hooked on whatever mission your guys wanted to dream up just to "dye" their lightsaber a different color, or show off a fancy new handle.