Japan [Tag: Fucked]

[Arthur_Parker]

Who really cares if people are leaving?  If they are, great.  If not, great. 

Yeah, Tokyo is large city the way media chooses to present the story says more about them than it does anything else.  You could probably do a story on people there LARP'ing at the minute if you really wanted to.

[Ghambit]

Global Agenda is on sale through the weekend and all proceeds go to Japan relief.  Cool move on Hi-Rez's part.
I half expected (when the quake 1st hit) that Creative Assembly would do a similar promotion with Shogun 2.  With so many people on the fence about that game and given its heavy online component it would've been smart to promote Japan like that especially given the theme.

[Ghambit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wYiNnHEGyY&feature=player_embedded

 
Really get an idea of the amount of water we're talkin about here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zOZhd_9nec&feature=relmfu

Holy #$%... they survived!

[RhyssaFireheart]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wYiNnHEGyY&feature=player_embedded

 
Really get an idea of the amount of water we're talkin about here.

Not just the volume of water by also how insanely fast it was moving.  I'm amazed that building next to the water was still standing, especially seeing how the water was pouring out the windows on the one side.  And you could really see the force of the water as it was flowing around that building, too. 

[MournelitheCalix]

Not sure if this has been posted but supposedly it came from audio deep within the ground of the japanese quake.




http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110318/ts_yblog_thelookout/listen-to-japans-massive-quake

[Arthur_Parker]

Radiation hampers efforts to restore power to nuclear plant in Japan

Workers made a second series of attempts Friday to cool the fuel rods, dumping water from helicopters and using water cannons operated by Japan's Self-Defense Forces to spray water into the pool, which sits in the upper level of the building housing reactor No. 4. The reactor itself had been shut down for maintenance before the earthquake, so it does not pose a problem.

But photographs taken by helicopters and a Global Hawk drone operated by the U.S. Air Force indicate the water is not lasting very long in the pool, suggesting that there is a major breach in the walls of the vessel holding the fuel rods, according to the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

LA Times again.

Press release indicates rods still exposed, plus they ran out of sea water at one point.

Robots en route to Japan

Four robots are en route to Japan with capabilities that could be used on search and rescue missions as well as try to define the environment close to the damaged Fukushima nuclear power plants, iRobot announced today.

The Bedford, Mass., based company said the Japan Ground Self Defense Forces — Special Ops — asked for the robots, two each of the 510 PackBot and 710 Warrior models.

"We don't know yet where, how, and when they'll be used," Laura Jakosky, a spokeswoman for the company, told me today in an Email. Both models are ground robots and were used in the rescue and recovery mission at Ground Zero following the 9/11, she added.

The robots were put on a plane Friday for Japan and plans call for iRobot personnel to train Japanese forces on how to operate the robots from a protected vehicle.

Potential uses for the 510 PackBot include HazMat detection and video surveillance. The 710 Warrior is capable of carrying heavy payloads and traveling over rough terrain, even climbing stairs. It could, for example, haul a water hose close to the reactors, akin to a robotic firefighter, Jakosky noted.

The ultimate mission of the robots will be determined by the Japan Ground Self Defense Forces.

[Soln]

added to the EPA's CDX portal today:

March 18, 2011: As of 12:00 pm (EDT) EPA's RadNet radiation air monitors across the US showed typical fluctuations in background radiation levels. The levels detected are far below levels of concern.

[Ghambit]

I wondered after the Hydrogen explosions at the tops of the buildings if perhaps the water in the pools themselves acted as "catalyst" for explosive pressures... similar to what happens when you explode a bomb underwater.  Water is uncompressable basically, but the walls of the pool are the opposite.  They can flex, compress, and fail when the water just translates the shockwave directly to them.  Also, there'd be some volumetric expansion as the water moves out of the way of the blast... and the only way to go is OUT, against the walls of the pool.

I'm trying to dig up some experiments where explosives were detonated just above a shallow pool.

Also, if the water in the SFP doesnt have enough impurities it's possible it could become superheated if not actively cooled.  This is the same effect as putting distilled water into a microwave and then suddenly adding an impurity or disturbing it... what happens??  It violently explodes.

Another possibility, the Hydrogen bubbles in the pool when the explosion happened had enough surface tension to explode within it... similar to some electrolysis experiments.  Producing yet another shockwave.

[brellium]

Radiation hampers efforts to restore power to nuclear plant in Japan

Workers made a second series of attempts Friday to cool the fuel rods, dumping water from helicopters and using water cannons operated by Japan's Self-Defense Forces to spray water into the pool, which sits in the upper level of the building housing reactor No. 4. The reactor itself had been shut down for maintenance before the earthquake, so it does not pose a problem.

But photographs taken by helicopters and a Global Hawk drone operated by the U.S. Air Force indicate the water is not lasting very long in the pool, suggesting that there is a major breach in the walls of the vessel holding the fuel rods, according to the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

LA Times again.

Press release indicates rods still exposed, plus they ran out of sea water at one point.

Robots en route to Japan

How do you run out of sea water next to the ocean?

And no I'm not going to bother reading that.

[Surlyboi]

You don't run out of it. You just run into the logistical problems of getting it from the ocean onto the rods.

[Sir T]

Yeah, the plants may be at the coast but the reactors are actually a fair bit back from the shore. Getting fuel to run water pumps is probably still a serious issue in the aftermath of the quake, and its to far back to spray water from fireboats into the reactor.

[Sand]

I dont know why certain posters are attempting to deny that people are fleeing the city of Tokyo, but it is happening.
Relevant news article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/wl_nm/us_japan_quake_tokyo

I mean hell just google "fleeing tokyo" and look at the list of relevant news articles.

Probably for the same reason you want to keep insisting that everyone is running away when the vast majority are doing what they always do, which is staying put.

Read some of the comments in that second article you posted. And then, while you're at it, google "Don't believe the hype". Oh wait, you don't need to google that, you just need to apply it to your daily life as you go about looking for more gloom and doom than is actually taking place in Japan.

Please do be finding and quoting where I said "everyone" is fleeing. My very first original statement was that some people were leaving. Which they are. Quite a lot of people. Japanese and foreigners both.  
I know you have some kind of fanboy fetishism going on with Japan and the awesomeness of its people, but calm down 'kay?

Who really cares if people are leaving?  If they are, great.  If not, great.  

I dont. Simply mentioned an article earlier in the thread and Surlyboi has argued with it ever since. So Im simply obliging him.  

[Sand]

Stuff about robots.

Given how many episodes of Discovery channel's "Mythbusters" I have watched where they rig up a car to be driven remotely, how hard would it be to remotely rig up a tank or helicopter with a fire hose attached to spray water on the rods, using a remote pilot by wire? Where the remote pilot is a safe distance away?

How has this not happened yet?

[Ghambit]

Yeah, the plants may be at the coast but the reactors are actually a fair bit back from the shore. Getting fuel to run water pumps is probably still a serious issue in the aftermath of the quake, and its to far back to spray water from fireboats into the reactor.

The fact that they're resolved to use trucks instead of portable pumps spells it out quite clearly.  The distances are too great for most portable pumps to handle and even if they did the pressures wouldnt be enough.
They could daisy-chain or build a "day tank" to pull from but...  lotta work in bad conditions.  It's really a job for oil rig companies tbh and I'm actually surprised some of them havent offered equipment to go along with those huge turbine generators they'll be getting online shortly.

[Fordel]

Radiation does bad things to fine electronics is my understanding.

[Sir T]

They could daisy-chain or build a "day tank" to pull from but...  lotta work in bad conditions.  It's really a job for oil rig companies tbh and I'm actually surprised some of them havent offered equipment to go along with those huge turbine generators they'll be getting online shortly.

Oil and Nuclear are mortal enemies these days (there's serious talk of Nuclear as a stop gap to wean the world off petroleum as we develop recyclable energy) and I'm sure it suits big oil to see some bad press for the nuclear industry rather than them for a change. So I would not hold my breath on seeing oil companies rushing pumps to Japan. I agree with you that Oil pumps would be ideal for this though.

[MahrinSkel]

Well, and if the Mythbusters remotes fail, the fake police car drives into a fence and everybody laughs.  If the remotes on a water cannon truck fail, it drives into the nuclear reactor building and everybody screams about what a stupid idea it was in the first place.

--Dave

[Lantyssa]

Radiation does bad things to fine electronics is my understanding.

Very bad things.  There are alternatives now, but it's why the shuttles used core memory for a very long time.

[Fordel]

I have no idea what that means, but would like to know more.

[MahrinSkel]

Imagine what is happening in electronics at an atomic level: Electrons are passed or not passed based on some very sensitive physics.  You start shooting high-energy subatomic particles through them, and they start doing random stuff.  In analog electronics this expresses as noise, but in digital electronics they start spitting out garbage because there's no room for random errors.

--Dave

[Fordel]

So my old Rabbit Ears boat anchor of a TV is fine, but my new flat screen is fucked?

[Furiously]

If it has vacuum tubes, it might work.

[Fordel]

I would have to check, but I would not be surprised if it did.




This thread makes me feel like a little kid again, so much stuff flying around that is way over my head and I only grasp like the barest bit of it and end up asking "Why?" over and over again.


Random: Does anyone have a map that highlights how much of Japan is currently fucked? I keep hearing about entire towns just not existing, but I have no idea where they are (or were?).

[Sir T]

So my old Rabbit Ears boat anchor of a TV is fine, but my new flat screen is fucked?

SCOTTY
                             Aye, sir. The more they over-
                             think the plumin', the easier it
                             is to stop up the drain.

[Sand]

I
This thread makes me feel like a little kid again, so much stuff flying around that is way over my head and I only grasp like the barest bit of it and end up asking "Why?" over and over again.

Yeah its one of the coolest things about F13.

[KallDrexx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wYiNnHEGyY&feature=player_embedded

 
Really get an idea of the amount of water we're talkin about here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zOZhd_9nec&feature=relmfu

Holy #$%... they survived!

:( at the beginning of the first video, there are survivors on the roof across the street (with all the cars crashing into it), then later in the video that building is gone or completely submerged...

[Ghambit]

A ray-shielded fusion Mech would be nice right about now.  No seriously.

[MahrinSkel]

I remember watching video of islands of wreckage floating back out to sea, underneath bridges.  The water was about two feet below the bridge, and the wreckage was catching and grinding and rolling under the concrete bridge.  And you could see people standing and running around on the flotsam, trying to find low spots that hopefully wouldn't get overturned.

I was actually glad they didn't show the downstream side of the bridge.

--Dave

[ghost]

I remember watching video of islands of wreckage floating back out to sea, underneath bridges.  The water was about two feet below the bridge, and the wreckage was catching and grinding and rolling under the concrete bridge.  And you could see people standing and running around on the flotsam, trying to find low spots that hopefully wouldn't get overturned.

I was actually glad they didn't show the downstream side of the bridge.

--Dave

Do you (or anyone else) happen to know how much forewarning most of these areas got for the tsunami?  I have seen innumerable videos with people driving around by the ocean right before the wave hit and I can't help but think how the fuck didn't they know to be as far inland as possible.  The only rational explanation I can think of is that the warnings didn't come quick enough. 

[Surlyboi]

I dont know why certain posters are attempting to deny that people are fleeing the city of Tokyo, but it is happening.
Relevant news article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110316/wl_nm/us_japan_quake_tokyo

I mean hell just google "fleeing tokyo" and look at the list of relevant news articles.

Probably for the same reason you want to keep insisting that everyone is running away when the vast majority are doing what they always do, which is staying put.

Read some of the comments in that second article you posted. And then, while you're at it, google "Don't believe the hype". Oh wait, you don't need to google that, you just need to apply it to your daily life as you go about looking for more gloom and doom than is actually taking place in Japan.

Please do be finding and quoting where I said "everyone" is fleeing. My very first original statement was that some people were leaving. Which they are. Quite a lot of people. Japanese and foreigners both.  
I know you have some kind of fanboy fetishism going on with Japan and the awesomeness of its people, but calm down 'kay?

It's called being born there and having spent a decent chunk of my formative years in and around Tokyo and Osaka. It's called being half Japanese. It's called owning a fucking apartment in Nihonbashi and having some really close friends and family that still live there and live in the affected area. if that's fanboy fetishism, it's new to me. But then again, you can continue to live up to your name and be the sand in the collective vagina of f13. Go nuts.

In answer to your question Ghost, they had almost no warning at all. The earthquake was so close that for a lot of people there, the first warning was seeing the water recede.

[UnSub]

Do you (or anyone else) happen to know how much forewarning most of these areas got for the tsunami?  I have seen innumerable videos with people driving around by the ocean right before the wave hit and I can't help but think how the fuck didn't they know to be as far inland as possible.  The only rational explanation I can think of is that the warnings didn't come quick enough. 

Early reports indicated the longest warning lead time was about 15 minutes.

[ghost]

Do you (or anyone else) happen to know how much forewarning most of these areas got for the tsunami?  I have seen innumerable videos with people driving around by the ocean right before the wave hit and I can't help but think how the fuck didn't they know to be as far inland as possible.  The only rational explanation I can think of is that the warnings didn't come quick enough. 

Early reports indicated the longest warning lead time was about 15 minutes.

Fuck that's scary.  I can't bear to watch some of these videos. 

[UnSub]

Stuff about robots.

Given how many episodes of Discovery channel's "Mythbusters" I have watched where they rig up a car to be driven remotely, how hard would it be to remotely rig up a tank or helicopter with a fire hose attached to spray water on the rods, using a remote pilot by wire? Where the remote pilot is a safe distance away?

How has this not happened yet?

I had seen some commentators say things like, "Japan is the country of robots. How do they not have nuclear meltdown-fighting robots in there right now?".

Ignoring the fact that Japan was hit by a tsunami that my have made getting shielded robots to key locations difficult, I'd have to wonder if there has been much R&D into developing workable robots for this kind of situation. I'm sure that prototypes have been developed and that it is theoretically possible, but doubt that a lot of working models are available.

Especially given the issue of remote control systems in areas of fluctuating radiation.

The robots Arthur linked to are more likely going to be used for recon work in areas it would be unsafe for people to walk (e.g. collapsed buildings) and possibly looking for survivors (although, it's been a few days and the weather has been awful, so it might be more for recovering bodies).

[MahrinSkel]

The gist of what's changed recently with the reactors is that the government of Japan has taken much more direct control.  There's a disconnect in industrial disasters because the operator of the facility is held responsible to deal with it, and because they're responsible (and liable) they're in charge.  If the government takes control, it often means that the operator can escape liability.

In this case, I'm not sure if it was the government losing confidence in TEPCO, if TEPCO's liability capped out (they have a limit of 1.5 trillion yen), or if it just became clear that the 50 people that TEPCO could put on the task just weren't enough.  But something changed drastically, there are now over 300 people working on it, many of the from the SDF (Japan's military).  The US offer of personnel, mostly Navy reactor crews, was apparently refused (repeatedly), but they are accepting 100 isolation suits, with which they'll apparently play Cinderella (instead of fitting the suits to the person which takes a lot of time, you find a person who fits the suit).

--Dave

[Fordel]

In some of the videos I've seen, the water doesn't rush in at all, but slowly trickle at first. I can easily see someone not getting the warning and only seeing what they think is a broken water main from the earth quake or whatever.


In other places, the incoming water is so fast, your car might not actually go fast enough to beat it and shit.