StarCraft II

[Fordel]

So I'm #4 in my Silver league, and I've been getting nothing but Gold opponents.  It amazes me how bad some of these people in Gold are.  After I stop their initial attack they just don't know what to do.

A very large chunk of "serious" ladder gamers are basically just rote players.

[Muffled]

Aye, doing a simple two base attack well enough wins a TON of games in lower divisions, even doing it blind.  Throw in some basic micro with force fields or stim-move-hold or whatever and you can just roll through people.

[slog]

I heard that at some point Blizzard will reset the ladder for a new "season."  What's this all about?

[bhodi]

They are splitting diamond off into 2 different pro leagues. I don't think the whole ladder is getting reset, though. Maybe once the new b.net 2.0 chat and what not features are added.

[Muffled]

I don't have evidence one way or the other, but it wouldn't surprise me if they reset the whole thing for the diamond split in order to implement a new/changed mechanism for placement and movement through leagues.

________

If Idra keeps improving his GSL showing at the same pace, he'll win it in another four months.

[Malakili]

My understanding was that they would regularly have season resets once things get rolling. 

As for the Diamond split, it seems like they are making Diamond only into the "On the good end of sucking at the game" league.  The pro league will be the actually good players, and the grand masters league will be the very tip top or whatever.

Seems like a fine way to divide it up really.

[El Gallo]

My understanding was that they would regularly have season resets once things get rolling. 

As for the Diamond split, it seems like they are making Diamond only into the "On the good end of sucking at the game" league.  The pro league will be the actually good players, and the grand masters league will be the very tip top or whatever.

Seems like a fine way to divide it up really.

Then they'll make the the diamonds into pros, the pros into grand masters, and the grand masters into UltraMasters(TM).  And then...

Gotta keep people on the treadmill, thinking they're getting better, even when they aren't.

[Malakili]

My understanding was that they would regularly have season resets once things get rolling. 

As for the Diamond split, it seems like they are making Diamond only into the "On the good end of sucking at the game" league.  The pro league will be the actually good players, and the grand masters league will be the very tip top or whatever.

Seems like a fine way to divide it up really.

Then they'll make the the diamonds into pros, the pros into grand masters, and the grand masters into UltraMasters(TM).  And then...

Gotta keep people on the treadmill, thinking they're getting better, even when they aren't.

Maybe maybe not.  The other leagues really aren't getting shuffled around so I don't think this particular change necessarily means there is a trend in this direction, especially since they've been saying since before beta there was going to be a pro league.

[El Gallo]

Wasn't platinum formerly the top league, before they created diamond and got rid of copper?  Admittedly, that was in beta and may be wrong.

[Yoru]

So, anyone else fucking around with EvoChamber? I find it a fascinating application of serious science to what is effectively a trivial pastime (for most).

[Malakili]

Wasn't platinum formerly the top league, before they created diamond and got rid of copper?  Admittedly, that was in beta and may be wrong.

Yes, though that was (ostensibly) because they felt that copper and bronze weren't different enough, or some jazz.  It was in beta though.

[Muffled]

What is this "EvoChamber" of which you speak, Yoru?  I haven't seen anything that would seem to fit the context of the post.

[Megrim]

Build order calculator.

[Yoru]

What is this "EvoChamber" of which you speak, Yoru?  I haven't seen anything that would seem to fit the context of the post.

EvolutionChamber, a Java app that uses a standard genetic algorithm to try to discover build orders. Quite an interesting application of the technique, and theoretically valid for the early game.

I prefer throwing it at a stupid problem and chuckling at what it comes up with. Right now I have it crunching on the fabled "Five Ultralisk Rush".

[Fordel]

I think the big difference with the new Pro/GrandMaster league is that it will be global or whatever. Instead of being ranked 14th in division 532 of diamond or whatever, it will just be "JoeZerg is 52nd overall, the end."

[Malakili]

I think the big difference with the new Pro/GrandMaster league is that it will be global or whatever. Instead of being ranked 14th in division 532 of diamond or whatever, it will just be "JoeZerg is 52nd overall, the end."

I was under the impression that that was for the grandmasters league, which i think they said was for the top 200 players in the world regardless of region.  I may be mistaken though.

[slog]

So I went from #1 in my Silver League to #1 in my Gold league last night.  I'm now running into 4 gate protoss players who are really good at force fields, which is screwing me over pretty badly.  I like to get mass lings and some spines to deal with 4 gaters and then transition into roach/hydra. 

What are other Zergs doing?

[Malakili]

So I went from #1 in my Silver League to #1 in my Gold league last night.  I'm now running into 4 gate protoss players who are really good at force fields, which is screwing me over pretty badly.  I like to get mass lings and some spines to deal with 4 gaters and then transition into roach/hydra. 

What are other Zergs doing?

As a protoss, the zerg play that hurts me the worst is ling muta.  Be attentive about scouting for proxy pylons and probes and you can stay ahead of the 4gaters.  Basically, you want map control, if he is containing you, rather than the other way around.  Early game that means a healthy amount of speedlings, later that means mutas.  If he stays even with you in bases you're in bad shape.  Don't be afraid to invest in an extra couple of queens to help with defense, including transfusing other queens or spine crawlers.

[Malakili]

Apparently battle.net 2.0 has decided to be flakey right in the middle of the MLG grand finals....

Who needs lan support?!

[Fordel]

That was pretty damn bad yea, final game was delayed by like 2 hours or something. I can only imagine how frustrating that was for the players with thousands on the line.

[Margalis]

Only pirates need LAN support.

[slog]

I'm at the point now in Gold where I absolutely destroy the folks who cheesed their way up the ladder and I usually lose to folks who can micro better than me.

Also, I lose every single ZvZ. :(

[Malakili]

I'm at the point now in Gold where I absolutely destroy the folks who cheesed their way up the ladder and I usually lose to folks who can micro better than me.

Also, I lose every single ZvZ. :(

How is your macro?  I basically just macroed my way to diamond.  Plain having a ton more stuff than your opponent wins a hell of a lot of the time all the way through platinum in my experience.

Also, yea, cheese becomes less useful the higher you go, though the cheesers get better too, so its a constant struggle.

[DLRiley]

So I went from #1 in my Silver League to #1 in my Gold league last night.  I'm now running into 4 gate protoss players who are really good at force fields, which is screwing me over pretty badly.  I like to get mass lings and some spines to deal with 4 gaters and then transition into roach/hydra. 

What are other Zergs doing?

losing,

[slog]

I've been trying 5 RR without scouting.  Works fairly well.  If I get good pressure, I'm ahead, if I don't then I expand while he panics.  If I get 8 pooled I lose.

[DLRiley]

So I went from #1 in my Silver League to #1 in my Gold league last night.  I'm now running into 4 gate protoss players who are really good at force fields, which is screwing me over pretty badly.  I like to get mass lings and some spines to deal with 4 gaters and then transition into roach/hydra. 

What are other Zergs doing?

As a protoss, the zerg play that hurts me the worst is ling muta.  Be attentive about scouting for proxy pylons and probes and you can stay ahead of the 4gaters.  Basically, you want map control, if he is containing you, rather than the other way around.  Early game that means a healthy amount of speedlings, later that means mutas.  If he stays even with you in bases you're in bad shape.  Don't be afraid to invest in an extra couple of queens to help with defense, including transfusing other queens or spine crawlers.

Hmm interesting, why don't i see this more in top level play. Or i don't watch enough top level play hmm.
I'm terran in silver league and the zerg players are small in number and generally aren't scary. Should I expect this in Gold as well.

[bhodi]

If you can scout/withstand a 4gate, protoss won't be able to take you down until he has colossi.

If you see him put a cyber core down and no crono on the gateway, fast expand - do a 14 pool 14 hatch. Don't do 14 hatch 14 pool or a fast thinking one will isolate your 2 bases with the forge+pylon trick or will quickly get out 2 stalkers and harass you with them. You need to deny scouting, at least temporarily - but don't build more than 2 or 4 zerglings. You aren't trying to prevent him seeing your expansion, you're trying to prvent him seeing how many geysers you have and when you started lair tech. Don't bother doing a roach rush, he'll just FF his ramp. Go for mutas or hydras. A good protoss will counter by expanding, a bad one will try and 4gate or do some weird cannon/building cheese. If he doesn't expand immediately, you need to sack an overlord to see what's up.

If you scout a 4gate, just bunker down with spine crawlers and break his wave. You'll need at least 6 of them and maybe 12-14 roaches. You WON'T get hydras out in time, your first hydra wave will pop as he's attacking, so don't bother. Put up spine crawlers on an overlooking cliff using overlord vomit if it's a natural with a choke like lost temple. He won't have vision or a way to get it.

If he tries 1base colossi, or heavy on the immortals, you'll want a spire for corruptors/muta. If he builds a stargate, hydras. The name of the game is contain while you take your third.

If you're playing a smart protoss and he does a 2-3gate expand and threatens w/ map control, it's time for zergling games. Run them in, 12 or so at a time, go for his probes. Even if he walled off, he probably didn't wall off his expansion. I personally like mutas because they punish them trying to sit outside your natural, at least for a while. If you've got mutas, hit his main with mutas and run your lings in to his exp. Remember that hydras rape all protoss gateway units and infestors make zealots useless.  Infestor/hydra is better than roach/hydra. After 100 food, don't make roaches, they aren't good enough for their unit cost in large numbers mid-late game.

[Malakili]

If you can scout/withstand a 4gate, protoss won't be able to take you down until he has colossi.

If you see him put a cyber core down and no crono on the gateway, fast expand - do a 14 pool 14 hatch. Don't do 14 hatch 14 pool or a fast thinking one will isolate your 2 bases with the forge+pylon trick or will quickly get out 2 stalkers and harass you with them. You need to deny scouting, at least temporarily - but don't build more than 2 or 4 zerglings. You aren't trying to prevent him seeing your expansion, you're trying to prvent him seeing how many geysers you have and when you started lair tech. Don't bother doing a roach rush, he'll just FF his ramp. Go for mutas or hydras. A good protoss will counter by expanding, a bad one will try and 4gate or do some weird cannon/building cheese. If he doesn't expand immediately, you need to sack an overlord to see what's up.

If you scout a 4gate, just bunker down with spine crawlers and break his wave. You'll need at least 6 of them and maybe 12-14 roaches. You WON'T get hydras out in time, your first hydra wave will pop as he's attacking, so don't bother. Put up spine crawlers on an overlooking cliff using overlord vomit if it's a natural with a choke like lost temple. He won't have vision or a way to get it.

If he tries 1base colossi, or heavy on the immortals, you'll want a spire for corruptors/muta. If he builds a stargate, hydras. The name of the game is contain while you take your third.

If you're playing a smart protoss and he does a 2-3gate expand and threatens w/ map control, it's time for zergling games. Run them in, 12 or so at a time, go for his probes. Even if he walled off, he probably didn't wall off his expansion. I personally like mutas because they punish them trying to sit outside your natural, at least for a while. If you've got mutas, hit his main with mutas and run your lings in to his exp. Remember that hydras rape all protoss gateway units and infestors make zealots useless.  Infestor/hydra is better than roach/hydra. After 100 food, don't make roaches, they aren't good enough for their unit cost in large numbers mid-late game.

I think part of the issue with this methodology, bhodi, is that for slog the timings aren't going to be this crisp.  Granted, you need to sort of proceed with that understanding anyway, but there is so much inconsistency in timing from game to game that getting a feel for it is just DIFFICULT.   I remember when I was going up through the leagues (playing random at the time), that sometimes I would assume a certain thing because of what I was scouting at his front, but then they'd be just so delayed or something that a huge push would come at a totally odd timing, that can really throw you off.

Your advice is good in general though.

[slog]

I've actually been doing better against Toss goiing Speedling/Banelings into Roach/Hydra/Colussi.  You are right about the timings, so I just drone up until I see a push coming then its lings to the rescue.

It's like Protoss have never seen Banelings before.

[bhodi]

I've actually been doing better against Toss goiing Speedling/Banelings into Roach/Hydra/Colussi.  You are right about the timings, so I just drone up until I see a push coming then its lings to the rescue.

It's like Protoss have never seen Banelings before.

They haven't because, in general, banelings suck against protoss. It takes something like 5 of them to kill a zealot and it's even worse against stalkers. You can only break even in terms of money if you're very, very lucky. Now, in low leagues they may do something silly like try to run away, and they've got a great deterrence factor, but almost invariably that gas is much better spent on a different unit because stalkers can kite them until the cows come home, and smart protoss will forcefield them rather than letting them kill their front line zealots and have speedlings mop up the stalkers.


It's not just about timing, if he stays on one base you HAVE to sacrifice an overlord to see what's up. If he's not teching and just massing t1, you won't be able to drone up until the last second you see him leave his base, because you won't have enough stored larvae.

[slog]

I tend to sac a few overlords.  I'm so dependent on scouting.

[Malakili]

Does anyone else get into the rhythm of winning like 10 straight and then losing like 10 straight.  I don't know if its the match maker or my terrible fucking luck but I seem to get either matched up against 10 people in a row who are flat better than me or 10 people in a row who are flat worse than me.  I hit a wall like this back when I was in platinum where it seemed like I had almost no good games and everything was either me getting rolled, or me just flat winning, I just don't get it.

[DLRiley]

Well up until rank 30 silver, I would win 3 in a row then lose one. Now its win, lose, win, lose, win, lose. I generally discover that its best to play 4 games and then wait before you play your next for because it takes a minute for the ladder to match you properly.

[Malakili]

Well up until rank 30 silver, I would win 3 in a row then lose one. Now its win, lose, win, lose, win, lose. I generally discover that its best to play 4 games and then wait before you play your next for because it takes a minute for the ladder to match you properly.

I suspect that the real problem is that I'm a terribly inconsistent player.  How well I play generally has to do with about 20 different unrelated things going on in my life and if I'm having a day I play closer to gold level than diamond, leaving me both frustrated with my losses AND frustrated because I know I should be doing better (which consequently makes me play even worst in subsequent games).

Such is Starcraft though.   I need some other game that allows me to get my competitive edge out without being so supremely frustrating.

[Muffled]

League of Legends fills that spot for me.  I'm the same way re: my performance in SC2, inconsistent, but I've learned to spot most of the times when I'll suck too hard before I turn on the computer.  Avoids my clenchy nerd rage.