DOTA2

[Chimpy]

MOST AWKWARD (and surreal) ENDING OF ANY TOURNAMENT EVER. Let alone one with 18M prize pool. Please someone shoot the DJ and whoever hired him.

Deadmau5 is pretty much the biggest DJ/producer in the world right now, especially among the group that is biggest into stuff like DOTA.

The awarding of the trophy straight into the DJ set is a bit weird though. Not even having Gabe present a giant fake check seems odd.

[Malakili]

I just assume that sort of thing is cooler for the people actually in the building.  Watching live musical acts on screen (TV, stream, whatever) just never works for me, the energy that is in the building doesn't come across and it lacks the sound mixing/production value of a music video.

[Megrim]

Yes, EG!

[Thrawn]

MOST AWKWARD (and surreal) ENDING OF ANY TOURNAMENT EVER. Let alone one with 18M prize pool. Please someone shoot the DJ and whoever hired him.

Seriously, whoever planned for this to be the end of the tournament and what we wanted to see RIGHT AFTER the end of the match instead of interviews, celebrations, reactions and analysis, should go manage stupid clubs in Ibiza.

Yeaahhh, pretty much came to post this.  That was bad on so many levels.

[Rasix]

Haven't they botched the award ceremony like every year?

They do this in LoL too.  Hey, awesome job guys, now here's some shit no one cares about!

I wasn't sure EG was going to be able to do this.  I mean, CDEC slammed them in the winner's bracket final.  Is this like the first time a North American team has won anything this significant?

[Ceryse]

Disappointed EG won. I was hoping for CDEC to pull it out; after the run they had they deserved a better end (although, the 'better', more experienced team did win). Still, not a bad week for them. Made a lot of money, did way better than anyone expected. Curious if next year we'll finally see someone win a second TI, or if the never-ending roster shuffling and new teams will continue to stop that from happening.

Was a pretty good tournament.. although, imo, the last two series were not the best of the tournament (or even close). That was definitely on days 2 and 3.

[Fordel]

I see no reason as to why EG couldn't make another run next year.

While Navi was intact they had what, 3 final showings?

[Velorath]

MOST AWKWARD (and surreal) ENDING OF ANY TOURNAMENT EVER. Let alone one with 18M prize pool. Please someone shoot the DJ and whoever hired him.

Seriously, whoever planned for this to be the end of the tournament and what we wanted to see RIGHT AFTER the end of the match instead of interviews, celebrations, reactions and analysis, should go manage stupid clubs in Ibiza.

Did you see their attempt at an interview (after Deadmau5 finished)? That was fucking awkward.

[Thrawn]

I wasn't sure EG was going to be able to do this.  I mean, CDEC slammed them in the winner's bracket final.  Is this like the first time a North American team has won anything this significant?

I guess it depends on your definition of significant.  EG won the Dota 2 Asian Championships earlier this year.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/Evil_Geniuses

[Malakili]

It's curious to me that these tournaments don't require the lower bracket team to win twice in the finals.  In other words, there is no chance for the team that makes it through the winner's bracket to go into the "losers" bracket. It's a double elimination tournament, except for that one team, who by virtue of playing so well, only gets one loss.    Maybe logistically it's just too much DOTA to play because the games take a long time, I dunno.

[Chimpy]

I think the reason that these eSports tournament awards presentations (and their broadcasting) is so meh is that their "production" team is pretty much comprised of people who are hardcore video games people. I think Valve was starting to try to bring a more professional sports broadcast quality to the event but it missed the mark in a lot of ways.

The fact that they never gave any indication when the next match would be starting, and they re-played the same little human interest video before EVERY match a team played all tournament was a bit annoying.

[Malakili]

This sort of problem has been around since eSports really started taking off in the west around 2010 due a confluence of events like twitch.tv taking off and Starcraft II coming out.  The long time members of these previously small community were suddenly talking to huge audiences and not really sure how to engage with people that weren't super into their niche hobby.  Someone like Day9 probably did the best job of it, but the same things still come up.  The big tournaments have gotten SOOOO much better in terms of production quality since then, but they still pale in comparison to pretty much any given sports broadcast, or even something like World Series of Poker on ESPN 2 at 1am.

[Trippy]

It's curious to me that these tournaments don't require the lower bracket team to win twice in the finals.  In other words, there is no chance for the team that makes it through the winner's bracket to go into the "losers" bracket. It's a double elimination tournament, except for that one team, who by virtue of playing so well, only gets one loss.    Maybe logistically it's just too much DOTA to play because the games take a long time, I dunno.

Yeah it is unfair but time is likely a factor. Some eSports tournaments like EVO that have shorter games do use real double elimination brackets.

Edit: word order

[Johny Cee]

This sort of problem has been around since eSports really started taking off in the west around 2010 due a confluence of events like twitch.tv taking off and Starcraft II coming out.  The long time members of these previously small community were suddenly talking to huge audiences and not really sure how to engage with people that weren't super into their niche hobby.  Someone like Day9 probably did the best job of it, but the same things still come up.  The big tournaments have gotten SOOOO much better in terms of production quality since then, but they still pale in comparison to pretty much any given sports broadcast, or even something like World Series of Poker on ESPN 2 at 1am.

I mean, isn't this just "New Media doesn't understand what Old Media actually does" problems?  Production is expensive, time consuming, and takes a bunch of specialized skills.  To internet people, they think they can eliminate the middleman and slap some shit together...  but there is actually a reason why TV sports look so polished and function so well.

And if you want to do it on a very limited time budget (as opposed to "made for TV" sports competitions where you shoot it then have a few weeks to edit together a package to sell to networks... think any of those Outdoor Games or Lumberjack competitions or anything else that fills a dead afternoon period on a Saturday or Sunday and is time delayed) you need an experienced, professional staff.

Even on-air talent...  I have a friend who is in on-air talent/production for sports.  You've probably seen him briefly in some random sports thing, but he wouldn't look familiar.  Basically, "generic TV sports guy" hired from central casting.  His skillset is basically being comfortable on camera and being able to carry on a natural seeming conversation while seeming genuine.  About 10 years ago, we were giving him shit because he was doing a bunch of different on-air BS for OLN hunting competitions.  Despite knowing he doesn't give a shit about hunting, I watched one of those things and he came off as being engaged and interested in what is going on, translating that to the audience, and drawing out random Redneck competition hunters to sound like professionals.  


Basically, esports are going to look shitty until they either reinvent the wheel and establish their own in-house production studios, or they bite the bullet and spend a shitload of money to get an actual TV production company to run and polish their product.

[Malakili]

Basically, esports are going to look shitty until they either reinvent the wheel and establish their own in-house production studios, or they bite the bullet and spend a shitload of money to get an actual TV production company to run and polish their product.

I suspect its mainly a money thing.  They are high enough quality by now that you can tell there are professionals doing it (unlike the earlier days when it was a total mess).  That next step up probably requires more money than they are willing to spend.  There have been a few tournaments on TV. ESPN aired some Heroes of the Storm tournament a couple months back and The International just now was on watchespn.com.  I don't know what the agreement looks like with ESPN, but they must have some kind of standard for what they are airing.

It's also different to cover a medium that basically has you on air for 12 straight hours covering a tournament that is happening in real time.  You basically never see that on TV aside from maybe golf and that at least has people playing 100% of the time so you can always show someone playing?  It's probably a combination of figuring out how to produce this kind of tournament and be willing to spend the cash to actually do it. 

There is also a bit of uncanny valley if you will.  The closer they get to looking like a real broadcast, the more I notice when they aren't quite right.  Meanwhile something like EVO which basically a couple of people sitting at a table talking about 2 other people playing Street Fighter comes across as a bit quaint and entertaining.

[Falconeer]

With all that said, I really enjoyed both the live-casting and the all the analyst panels to the point that I was surprised by the quality of it. What I found pathetic was just the very end of it, the aforementioned celebration and the awkward live DJ set, and eventually the inability to cope (somehow) with the teams' allergy to the spotlight, especially the EG folks. I guess all of that will improve with time.

[K9]

I'm not going to say that esports doesn't need a lot fo work, but as someone who's sat through a fair few pre-game shows at sprots matches, most of them are pretty underwhelming and played to a crowd of people who are mostly busy texting, drinking, or chatting to their mates. The superbowl halftime show always looks pretty good though, even when it isn't.

I thought this TI was better than the last, although the meta felt a bit narrow at times, the gameplay style of heavy roaming and teamfighting gave us plenty of good games, and the comeback mechanics helped ensure plenty of back and forth. I look forward to seeing all the changes that come, and next years TI

[Thrawn]

Cripes nerd drama.  Apparently EG just kicked Aui to pick up Arteezy again.

So win the biggest non TI tournament, go on to win TI, immediately change your line up.  Makes perfect sense.

[Fordel]

Yea, that is not something I expected. At least he got paid?

[Rasix]

You kick a support and bring in another carry player? Ehhh. I don't get it.  So, someone's going to play a role that they didn't just win the biggest DOTA2 tournament with.  Sound like a CLG LoL move.  "but... but... potential!"

[Kail]

Sounds like something going on behind the scenes.

But honestly, I'm not sure it's a bad move.  Look at how Newbee played this year.  Or IG.  Or Alliance.  All the former winners have done kind of badly after winning (except Na'Vi to a degree).

Edit: by which I mean, it's not like they're breaking up the ultimate superteam or anything, winning TI seems to sap the motivation of the players a lot.

[Fordel]

Fear is likely to move to support.

[Chimpy]

Has Aui confirmed he is gone? Seems more likely that Fear would retire, but /shrug. Maybe Fear is retiring too and both Zai and Arteezy are joining?

[Thrawn]

Has Aui confirmed he is gone? Seems more likely that Fear would retire, but /shrug. Maybe Fear is retiring too and both Zai and Arteezy are joining?

Unless it's some bad prank that a lot of people are in on, it's been confirmed that Aui was unceremoniously just booted and Arteezy is taking his place.

[Rasix]

As an aside, I showed my dad and son game 1 of the finals.  My dad was amused and my son was enthralled.  My son watched the whole thing and this isn't a kid that watches TV or movies. He goes around the house re-enacting battles as "EG Small Coffin".  

I'm afraid to show him the LoL regional playoffs that are going on right now.  I think he'd find it somewhat boring in comparison.  Every DOTA2 game is a bloodbath compared to your standard competitive LoL.

[Malakili]

Town Portals alone make DOTA 2 games just FAR more dynamic than League of Legends.  Teleport as a champion ability on a long cooldown is not a replacement for the ability to move around the map via TP throughout the game.  That's to say nothing of Boots of Travel later in the game.  Tack on the fact that spell casters have a lot more punch earlier in the game because levels matter more than items, smoke, and the ability to drop aggro on towers and you've got a lot more room to fight and make plays, whereas you are much more encouraged to farm up in lane in LoL.

[Chimpy]

DOTA2 is just more fun to watch as an outsider.

I never would be interested in playing DOTA2 as a player, and I think they (and all "esports") need to do a better job of making it accessible for non-initiates to enjoy. But I find that, even as a non-DOTA player, I was able to follow the action enough to enjoy it and sucked into it with almost no familiarity with the game (I basically only knew the overall premise and that there was the deny mechanic because Schild shit on it so much when he was talking about the forthcoming League of Legends game many moons ago). It has been much like my interest in Rugby Union or Australian Rules Football several years ago, the action was engaging and kept me interested long enough to learn more and become more interested.

Watching LoL is like watching baseball to me, I know a lot about it having played it in the past but overall it is just a boring, passive game.

[Kail]

Watching LoL is like watching baseball to me, I know a lot about it having played it in the past but overall it is just a boring, passive game.

Yeah, I feel the same way about HotS.  I'd rather be playing HotS than Dota, but it's pretty boring to watch.  Dota's got a lot more for commentators to comment about, a lot more weird interations that tweak things just a bit.  I have the same problem with watching a lot of action games, like Street Fighter.  They're tons of fun to play, there's just not much to talk about.

[Megrim]

Has Aui confirmed he is gone? Seems more likely that Fear would retire, but /shrug. Maybe Fear is retiring too and both Zai and Arteezy are joining?

Which is bizzare, since rtz is a shit player.

[Hoax]

Aui has confirmed with a salty tweet.

It was a moved prompted by the EG roster apparently. Fear is going to move to support because of his hand/arm problems is the dominant theory.

Zai is leaving Secret to finish his senior year of HS or something. So Secret appears to be disbanding. S4 has been confirmed moving somewhere pretty much from various player comments.

/end drama

[Johny Cee]

Has Aui confirmed he is gone? Seems more likely that Fear would retire, but /shrug. Maybe Fear is retiring too and both Zai and Arteezy are joining?

Which is bizzare, since rtz is a shit player.

Wait, what?  I don't like the guy, but he is pretty universally regarded as one of the top players in the world at either mid or carry.  I mean, top 2.  On Zai:  going back to school for a year, but will be a backup somewhere.  The problem with EG:  arguably Universe and Sumail are the best in the world at their position, PPD is drafter/Captain, and Fear is the face of EG (until he keels over due to old age).  Aui was the only expendable guy.  If they mesh, sounds like a ridiculous lineup.  Even if they don't, you've denied the scene one of the top guys at mid/carry.  Secret did beat the shit out of EG in lans between DAC and TI.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/3h2oxx/postti5_reshuffle_megathread/

Secret and C9 have both imploded.  JO (MVP.Phoenix) left MVP and is looking for a Western team.  Rumors Dendi might be moving. Team Liquid reforming. Insanity.

Basically, we are at the start of the 2-3 week window to lock in team rosters for the first Major, so shit is flying.

[Megrim]

Has Aui confirmed he is gone? Seems more likely that Fear would retire, but /shrug. Maybe Fear is retiring too and both Zai and Arteezy are joining?

Which is bizzare, since rtz is a shit player.

Wait, what?  I don't like the guy, but he is pretty universally regarded as one of the top players in the world at either mid or carry.  I mean, top 2.  On Zai:  going back to school for a year, but will be a backup somewhere.  The problem with EG:  arguably Universe and Sumail are the best in the world at their position, PPD is drafter/Captain, and Fear is the face of EG (until he keels over due to old age).  Aui was the only expendable guy.  If they mesh, sounds like a ridiculous lineup.  Even if they don't, you've denied the scene one of the top guys at mid/carry.  Secret did beat the shit out of EG in lans between DAC and TI.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/3h2oxx/postti5_reshuffle_megathread/

Secret and C9 have both imploded.  JO (MVP.Phoenix) left MVP and is looking for a Western team.  Rumors Dendi might be moving. Team Liquid reforming. Insanity.

Basically, we are at the start of the 2-3 week window to lock in team rosters for the first Major, so shit is flying.

Hardly universally regarded. He has great farming ability - that's it. His gamesense and decision making ability are awful. Like, really bad. The guy throws harder than Hvost, which is impressive to say the least. On top of that, EG already have an explosive mid in Sumail, and they have a cool, level-headed carry in Fear. So taking on rtz loses them a good supporting player (which are not only hard to find, but much more useful than most people think), but nets them an unreliable carry.

Now obviously they know what they are doing better than the peanut gallery, but I'm puzzled. Especially since I was cheering for EG not only in this tournament, but ones prior as well.

[Fordel]

I hope this version of Liquid isn't total shit.

[Hoax]

Universe shouldn't be regarded as the best in the world at his position neither should Sumail and I say that as a huge NAdota and EG fan. Not that they aren't tier1 players.

PPD is probably one of the best captain's in the scene and quite arguably the best hard 5 support. Aui is an interesting farming 4 that can work in some lineups.

Aui getting the boot will pressure them to figure out what to do. Both RTZ and Sumail have suffered at times from seemingly limited hero pools, RTZ has hinted he wants to go back to mid because he thinks safelane carry is not interactive enough. Soooo its going to be tough to sort through that unless Sumail and RTZ really have good in/out of game chemistry which is somehow a bit hard to imagine.

I hope this doesn't implode.


As for Megrim's thoughts on RTZ, everyone who plays dota a lot knows that RTZ is elite in terms of micro like the highest levels. Saying he throws more than Xboct is a joke. The huge problem is neither Sumail nor RTZ are more suited for safe carry than mid.

[Megrim]

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯