Cataclysm

[Rasix]

Dragon Age has a "casual" difficulty setting.   

[Rokal]

Right, telling your friend not to stand in the giant glowing ring of fire is just as hard as customizing AI for an entire party in Dragon Age 

For the record, I played DA2 on hard and I didn't customize the AI at all. I just switched between the pre-defined roles that the game already had AI for (like switching Anders to "healer"). Game still sucked though :(

You don't need to play perfect to succeed in Cata heroics, you just need to pay a basic amount of attention and be willing to communicate and adapt if what you are doing isn't working.

[Malakili]

MMO Raider-Speak translated to other games: If you can't be bothered to learn how to use tactics and program the AI in Dragon Age/ DA2, you don't deserve to finish the game at all.

  

Is that a problem?  If simply buying a game entitles you to everything in it, I think what you are looking for is a movie.

[Paelos]

Is that a problem?  If simply buying a game entitles you to everything in it, I think what you are looking for is a movie.

What is it you do for a living again? In all seriousness. I'd like to draw a comparable anology here.

[WindupAtheist]

lol normals

Normals are leveling content. The fact that a bare few of them are level 85 is basically irrelevant.

[Malakili]

Is that a problem?  If simply buying a game entitles you to everything in it, I think what you are looking for is a movie.

What is it you do for a living again? In all seriousness. I'd like to draw a comparable anology here.

Right now I am back in graduate school.  Before making that decision I was working a relatively crappy job for a company that deals with standardized testing.

[Rokal]

lol normals

Normals are leveling content. The fact that a bare few of them are level 85 is basically irrelevant.

Why does this matter at all? They still include gear upgrades when most people hit lvl 85, and it's still something to do with your friends. Hell, they still give you a method to get 346 gear too. I can understand the complaint that there aren't enough at level 85, but if you don't really care about the challenge I don't see why it matters. Running normal Throne of Tides at 85 would be stupid easy, but isn't that exactly what you want out of group content?

[Kail]

Running normal Throne of Tides at 85 would be stupid easy, but isn't that exactly what you want out of group content?

I was under the impression that lower level dungeons like Throne of Tides don't give you anything for running them at 85.  The gear is all level 83ish stuff, and you don't get any Justice points unless you queue for it from the LFD tool which excludes you from the non-85 dungeons.

[Azuredream]

Is that a problem?  If simply buying a game entitles you to everything in it, I think what you are looking for is a movie.

Uhm, I am a bit younger than you I am pretty sure, but nowadays game for all intents and purposes equals movie. It was said in another thread by somebody (don't remember) that games aren't about achievement anymore, they are about entertainment.

[Rokal]

That's correct. For most people (including myself) when they hit 85, some of those level 81/83 items are upgrades from quest gear you randomly picked up. So, there is the possibility you will get an upgrade out of it. My point is more: if you just want to faceroll content at 85 with your friends, why are normal mode dungeons not an option for you? There are only a couple at level 85, but there is nothing stopping you from running BRC or ToT if you want to. If your goal is just "do easy content with friends", these still fill that purpose.

[Paelos]

Right now I am back in graduate school.  Before making that decision I was working a relatively crappy job for a company that deals with standardized testing.

Ok that makes more sense. You may be approaching this from the educational standpoint. You pay for an education or you pay for testing to evaluate where you stand in that particular field. There are no guarantees in that world. You are not supposed to be given anything just because you cut somebody a check. In a job you're not guaranteed to get promoted because you've simply been there a long time. You are supposed to learn what you are doing and advance as a career person. In life you need to strive towards goals and improve yourself in order to be successful.

However, in most other consumer entertainment experiences, I'm paying you to experience something be it tangible or otherwise. If I walk out to a golf course, I don't expect to win at golf. What I expect is to play 18 holes. If I got to play the front nine, but I could only play the back because I shot over par, that golf course would go out of business. Their choice to deny me access to those holes would be a bad decision just because I'm a bad player. If I go to a movie, they don't switch off the film mid-way through and make everyone take a quick quiz to see if they are keeping up. Only those that pass get to watch the ending. How many people would put up with that? I'm sure the smart ones would be more than willing to go, but you'd lose the dumb money, and the movie doesn't change by who's watching it.

[Margalis]

You know what, if you can't be fucked to learn how to play the game, I have no sympathy for you.  That isn't aimed a particular "you" in this thread, its just a general show of frustration at the general "Well thats too hard for some people" posts.  Too fucking bad, the game is totally playable in its current state if you are willing to put in just a bare minimum of effort, and is still far more casual friendly than most MMORPGs out there.  If you just want to log in and get upgrades because you pay 15 bucks a month, you're the kind of people that has made this genre suck over the last 8-10 years.

Lol?

Being able to accomplish a lot with minimal effort pretty much IS what WoW is all about.

If you think that the genre sucks because whiners have made MMOs too easy you should not be playing WoW, period. That's like someone playing Cow Clicker and complaining about how modern games don't have a large mastery component to them. If you read the boards of basically any other MMO everyone agrees that WoW is an "easy" game and that a primary reason to play game X over WoW is that WoW is "too easy."

If people have been playing WoW for 6 years and don't know how to play up to your standards they aren't going to learn now. And why should they? Half the point of WoW is that you can be awesome at it while eating a sandwich and watching TV.

Is that a problem?  If simply buying a game entitles you to everything in it, I think what you are looking for is a movie.

Derp. THIS IS WOW WE ARE TALKING ABOUT! There are some games that emphasize mastery and the fun is in getting good. Then there are games like Prince of Persia 2008 where you press towards and mash buttons and the game beats itself for you. WoW is very much in the PoP vein of things.

If you want a game that emphasizes mastery why in the hell would you be playing WoW? WoW is the Duplo blocks of MMOs.

[Malakili]

However, in most other consumer entertainment experiences, I'm paying you to experience something be it tangible or otherwise. If I walk out to a golf course, I don't expect to win at golf. What I expect is to play 18 holes. If I got to play the front nine, but I could only play the back because I shot over par, that golf course would go out of business. Their choice to deny me access to those holes would be a bad decision just because I'm a bad player. If I go to a movie, they don't switch off the film mid-way through and make everyone take a quick quiz to see if they are keeping up. Only those that pass get to watch the ending. How many people would put up with that? I'm sure the smart ones would be more than willing to go, but you'd lose the dumb money, and the movie doesn't change by who's watching it.

I see your point.  I guess my approach has always been the gym membership approach - paying a monthly fee gets you access to the facilities, but you still need to put the effort in to actually get your money's worth.   I think your golf analogy is probably better for most people.

[Simond]

Is that a problem?  If simply buying a game entitles you to everything in it, I think what you are looking for is a movie.

What is it you do for a living again? In all seriousness. I'd like to draw a comparable anology here.

Right now I am back in graduate school.  Before making that decision I was working a relatively crappy job for a company that deals with standardized testing.

Out of interest, how much time do you have to play WoW?

[Malakili]

Out of interest, how much time do you have to play WoW?

At the moment I play around 2 hours saturday morning and 2 hours sunday morning weekly.

[caladein]

If you want a game that emphasizes mastery why in the hell would you be playing WoW? WoW is the Duplo blocks of MMOs.

I think going by opinions of other MMO's players isn't the greatest idea.  Pretty much any other game's chat channels can drop into a self-reassuring "WoW sucks." spam at the drop of a hat.  Also, it's gotten a lot better since the first Classic raids and Burning Crusade's one-button-wonder days (namely with this expansion).

Just focusing on the moment-to-moment experience group PvE play, I'd say GW and EVE have the edge in complexity, but that's about it.  The character building is a bit difficult to compare to other games because WoW isn't at all a black box and has a huge community to develop simulators, spreadsheets, and other tools that make the everyday player's experience less demanding from a math standpoint.  In a lot of other games, especially those with major PvP components, I was stuck doing a lot of my own work as no one with anything valuable to say wanted to share on a wiki or the forums.

[Margalis]

Leveling in WOW last I checked was they tell you exactly what to do and you go do it - "it" being something that is basically impossible to fail at unless you suffer a stroke mid-encounter.

My tone is dismissive but that's a legit game-style. Just not a skill-intensive one.

WOW end-game has always been about getting better gear so you can do harder encounters - not getting better at the game so you can do harder encounters. The sort of unwritten contract of WoW is that if you grind up enough gear you can take on the next challenge. It's similar to an offline RPG, if you are having trouble with a certain boss you can get better - or you can just raise levels.

[Malakili]

WOW end-game has always been about getting better gear so you can do harder encounters - not getting better at the game so you can do harder encounters. The sort of unwritten contract of WoW is that if you grind up enough gear you can take on the next challenge. It's similar to an offline RPG, if you are having trouble with a certain boss you can get better - or you can just raise levels.

I just don't think this is true.  Yes, you can out gear some kinds of fights, but there have always been a mix of gear and skill checks in most raids.

[Paelos]

WOW end-game has always been about getting better gear so you can do harder encounters - not getting better at the game so you can do harder encounters. The sort of unwritten contract of WoW is that if you grind up enough gear you can take on the next challenge. It's similar to an offline RPG, if you are having trouble with a certain boss you can get better - or you can just raise levels.

I just don't think this is true.  Yes, you can out gear some kinds of fights, but there have always been a mix of gear and skill checks in most raids.

I don't think gear has very much relevance at all beyond establishing a floor. Gear is one of the most minimal factors in the game right now, whereas in the past it was exponentially more important to covering skill deficiency. They need for that to be the case in this game to bridge the gap in their players. Right now, it's absent.

[Malakili]

WOW end-game has always been about getting better gear so you can do harder encounters - not getting better at the game so you can do harder encounters. The sort of unwritten contract of WoW is that if you grind up enough gear you can take on the next challenge. It's similar to an offline RPG, if you are having trouble with a certain boss you can get better - or you can just raise levels.

I just don't think this is true.  Yes, you can out gear some kinds of fights, but there have always been a mix of gear and skill checks in most raids.

I don't think gear has very much relevance at all beyond establishing a floor. Gear is one of the most minimal factors in the game right now, whereas in the past it was exponentially more important to covering skill deficiency. They need for that to be the case in this game to bridge the gap in their players. Right now, it's absent.

Well, I have noticed my survivability going up quite a bit with just a handful of heroic ilevel gear, but I think you're still probably right.  The question is, how can we get people to have better gear without making the content not worth doing in the first place?  I guess in the past the answer was rep grinds, but that seems a little past its prime these days.

[sinij]

You know what, if you can't be fucked to learn how to play the game, I have no sympathy for you. 

I can understand difficulty and challenge in PvP game, after all competition is entire point of it and you generally get to pick your teammates and occasionally even opponents. Now, acting all hardcore in PvE title like WoW just puzzles me. Can someone explain it to me?

Whole reason its PvE is to offload losing to AI, that doesn't mind, so you can feel better about yourself.

[Malakili]

Whole reason its PvE is to offload losing to AI, that doesn't mind, so you can feel better about yourself.

We just fundamentally disagree on this point, which isn't going to surprise anyone based on how this thread has gone.  But I'm one of those people that plays ARPGs on Hardcore mode after I beat it the first time.  I've said this in various places in various threads so I won't belabor the point again, but for me, its less about who (or what) I am playing against and more about self improvement as the source of enjoyment.   

That being said, that kind of PvE DOES exist in the game, in normal mode.  The normal mode discussion has already been played out today so not much more to add there.  I think at this point the issue is being able to keep your progression in terms of gear at the same time as being able to beat all the content. 

If you could get heroic gear in normals (but say it took twice as long?) - maybe if you get 2 pieces of the piece from the normal dungeon you can turn them in for the heroic version, would that be a viable approach?

[Paelos]

Well, I have noticed my survivability going up quite a bit with just a handful of heroic ilevel gear, but I think you're still probably right.  The question is, how can we get people to have better gear without making the content not worth doing in the first place?  I guess in the past the answer was rep grinds, but that seems a little past its prime these days.

Honestly, better content stratification. If they want heroics to be meaningful, they need to make regular raids easier. Make content go from regular dungeons > regular raids > heroic dungeons > heroic raids. Make it so the best players can start in heroic dungeons without the gear upgrade, but so the regular dudes have no shot.

If everyone sees your raiding content, they will feel less cheated than having to suffer through heroic dungeons for the shot at doing a regular raid.

[Malakili]

Well, I have noticed my survivability going up quite a bit with just a handful of heroic ilevel gear, but I think you're still probably right.  The question is, how can we get people to have better gear without making the content not worth doing in the first place?  I guess in the past the answer was rep grinds, but that seems a little past its prime these days.

Honestly, better content stratification. If they want heroics to be meaningful, they need to make regular raids easier. Make content go from regular dungeons > regular raids > heroic dungeons > heroic raids. Make it so the best players can start in heroic dungeons without the gear upgrade, but so the regular dudes have no shot.

If everyone sees your raiding content, they will feel less cheated than having to suffer through heroic dungeons for the shot at doing a regular raid.

Off the cuff, I'd be on board with this.

[Rokal]

Why would you push people from a raid-size, back into smaller groups, and then back into a raid-size within one progression path? It doesn't make sense, and it's even less logical when most 10-man raids have 3 healers. 25 man guilds would be even more screwed when they now needed to field 5 tanks that were well-geared enough to do 'whats next' after normal raids (heroic 5-mans).  Kara and TBC showed that making your guild's group size fluctuate a bunch was detrimental. You still haven't answered why normal mode dungeons are insufficient if you just want to kick back and have fun with friends. If you want to gear up for raids, but heroics are too hard, you'll be disappointed to learn that normal mode raids are harder than heroics right now. One of the only purposes heroics serve is to help you refine your individual gameplay.

Perhaps they will take your advice in the next expansion, and introduce "normal", "heroic", and "legendary" version of raids and 5-mans. In the normal mode fights, the group will get a buff that reduces damage taken by 99% and increases damage dealt by 50000%. The normal version also drops no loot. Since challenge has no place in WoW and you only care about doing the content with friends, you won't mind if your ultimate showdown with the Kij'jaeden or whatever now consists of 5 people running into a room, attacking the boss for 10 seconds, and then watching his corpse fall to the ground. You will also run out of exciting new content within the first week of the expansion. Excellent gameplay for sure, where do I sign up?

[Paelos]

You can challenge different sets of players by having different modes. Almost every RPG in the world has embraced that concept, or at least considered it. Yet, you have a problem with that in MMO's, Rokal? Why not let the player decide how hard their game should be, and reward them accordingly?

I believe it would be immensely popular.

[Rokal]

They already do this. I don't think anyone would argue normal mode 5-mans are too hard, and they reward you accordingly. You could say raids are too hard for most players, which I think is false (I don't honestly believe most players are as hopeless or dumb as everyone in this thread would like to believe), but part of making a convincing game world where opponents feel dangerous is making the big bad bosses that you build up actually feel dangerous. If you introduced the "normal mode" that I detailed, where it was impossible to die and bosses died in seconds, nobody would be happy with that mode either and players would get bored of it after doing it once. The truth is, some amount of challenge is necessary to make a game worth playing. You and I probably disagree on where that challenge is, but I don't think most players in this thread complaining about heroic 5-man difficulty are being honest about why they aren't enjoying the game.

[Paelos]

They already do this. I don't think anyone would argue normal mode 5-mans are too hard, and they reward you accordingly. You could say raids are too hard for most players, which I think is false (I don't honestly believe most players are as hopeless or dumb as everyone in this thread would like to believe), but part of making a convincing game world where opponents feel dangerous is making the big bad bosses that you build up actually feel dangerous. If you introduced the "normal mode" that I detailed, where it was impossible to die and bosses died in seconds, nobody would be happy with that mode either and players would get bored of it after doing it once. The truth is, some amount of challenge is necessary to make a game worth playing. You and I probably disagree on where that challenge is, but I don't think most players in this thread complaining about heroic 5-man difficulty are being honest about why they aren't enjoying the game.

I believe you are drawing the wrong conclusions from what I'm suggesting and then taking it to the Nth degree.

[Merusk]

MMO Raider-Speak translated to other games: If you can't be bothered to learn how to use tactics and program the AI in Dragon Age/ DA2, you don't deserve to finish the game at all.

  

Is that a problem?  If simply buying a game entitles you to everything in it, I think what you are looking for is a movie.

As Margalis points out, there's other games far more adept at testing skill if that's what you're really about.  Add on that you can make money at them if you're actually good and then the time playing WoW is doubly useless.  Which is why it always comes back to the following.

Some day you'll fill that hole in your life where you think that other's meaningless accomplishments in a video game somehow diminish your own meaningless accomplishments in a video game, so you have to keep those others from reaching that same, meaningless height.   Otherwise, they'll have that video game "glory" AND lack the void of failure you're trying to fill.

A trite rebuttal for an argument that's even more cliche than my response.   

[caladein]

You know what, if you can't be fucked to learn how to play the game, I have no sympathy for you. 

I can understand difficulty and challenge in PvP game, after all competition is entire point of it and you generally get to pick your teammates and occasionally even opponents. Now, acting all hardcore in PvE title like WoW just puzzles me. Can someone explain it to me?

Whole reason its PvE is to offload losing to AI, that doesn't mind, so you can feel better about yourself.

One is the 100m sprint and the other is fencing.

You might be competing against the rest of the world, or just that other guild that's in roughly the same spot as you to finish that next leg of the race.  That's mirrored in the individual aspects: getting the top spot on the damage meters, having the cleanest run, and generally just getting that bit better week after week.

I want that top spot... I want that top spot while not messing anything up... I want that top spot, a clean kill, and all while flying around doing stupid Hunter tricks (and wearing a murloc head) .

[Lakov_Sanite]

You keep comparing wow to actual activities and real world achievements. You know it's a video game right?  Protip: if you can explain your accomplishments without feeling like a loser, it's a real world achievement, if you can't its not something you should be proud of.

[angry.bob]

Seriously. There is literally nothing at all in any MMO that involves any skill other than sitting on your ass pushing a few buttons. The only sort of videogame that comes close to involving any sort of skill is first person shooters. MMO's and WoW in particular are the antiskill. If you think you need any any sort of skill or advanced knowledge you're fooling yourself to feel better about sitting around wasting your life.

[Arrrgh]

Some day you'll fill that hole in your life where you think that other's meaningless accomplishments in a video game somehow diminish your own meaningless accomplishments in a video game, so you have to keep those others from reaching that same, meaningless height.   Otherwise, they'll have that video game "glory" AND lack the void of failure you're trying to fill.

8

[Malakili]

As Margalis points out, there's other games far more adept at testing skill if that's what you're really about.

I play WoW right now because I have pretty limited game time, I have an old friend that plays, and the current set of heroics is just about perfect for our level of time to invest and skill level.  I've played lots of competitive games in the past in leagues, but thats just not in the cards anymore.  Thats actually the great part about Cata as it stands in my opinion, it allows for my mentality to co-exist with a small time investment.  Most of the other games simply demand more time than I can put in right now. (Starcraft 2 and whathaveyou).  I'm not a professional player, nor was I ever, but I absolutely love to push myself to be as good as I can be at whatever game I'm playing, whether its an FPS league, or sunday morning WoW with my friends.

Its the same thing that drives me to make food as well as I can, even though I'm not going to school to be a chef.  Its the same thing that makes me want to perfect my form when I go to the gym even though I'm never going to be a professional weight lifter.  (and for that matter the same reason I am going back to school to get my PhD, though that of course is professional, and the thing I spend huge amounts of time on)

Thats the real disconnect here, as has been identified several times TODAY, let alone other places and times.  I don't feel any need to defend that approach, and you can dismiss it as some kind of desire to keep "casuals" down so I can have all my glory, but frankly, I don't know satisfaction you think I derive from having like 5 pieces of heroic gear and a bunch of mediocre blues.

Let me say one last time here that I'm not REALLY condemning anyone for wanting to play casually and who doesn't care.  I did have that one particularly snarky outburst earlier today that I pretty much just apologize for and have to own for saying it, so thats that.  I often let out other latent frustrations out on poor unsuspecting internet goers, I need to work on that.

[caladein]

You keep comparing wow to actual activities and real world achievements. You know it's a video game right?  Protip: if you can explain your accomplishments without feeling like a loser, it's a real world achievement, if you can't its not something you should be proud of.

I have a crippling sense of shame about a few things, but playing a video game with my friends isn't one of them.  Neither is spending time with a pad and pencil (or spreadsheet) doing math so I can have a bit more fun with a video game.

Am I going to go on about it to my family and everyone I know from work or class?  No, just like I might not go on about the second Crystal Castles album (not as good as a first) or my undying crush on Bettany Hughes (for serious) or how I'm looking forward to the Angels this year even though we might not be very good (Peter Bourjos bunt triples ftw).