Cataclysm

[kildorn]

The default UI is worlds better. DBM is basically built in now (most boss abilities give huge warnings across the screen)

I personally use vuhdo, but that's because I prefer click-heal, and don't like my group and raid healing frames to be different. Healing with the default frame in 5s is entirely doable. I just really don't like to shift mental gears to "okay, now my heal frames are over HERE because we added another person and suddenly my entire usage of the UI changes!"

But the few times I've had my UI mods not updated by the time I get home from work, the default UI has been entirely functional. We're a long way away from Vanilla, where the default UI was just.. painful. I will say that the functionality built into the default UI and my usage of vuhdo has made be absolutely loathe every other MMO's UI.

edit: is libheal still a requirement, or is that handled by the default UI as well now? I know the one reason to have that installed for raiding was that even if you raid heal with the default UI, libheal at least lets everyone ELSE see your incoming heals.

[caladein]

You actually don't need any mods to heal anymore, the default UI is that good.  I'd argue you probably want one to move the player/target frames, but that won't be necessary next patch.  Now, I use a ton of mods and love them (in fact, the screenshot of my UI in the spoiler was taken automatically by one ) but the combat ones are all about giving me extra customization or easier access to information than the default UI, not really giving me entirely new functionality anymore.

You've been able click-cast via @mouseover macros for ages; the stock nameplates, scrolling combat text, and raid frames are all quite good having test-driven them (and in the case of nameplates, still use them); and boss mods are rather unnecessary these days.  Does having the precise timers via BigWigs let me squeeze in an extra shot or trap on a fight like Atramedes or Maloriak?  Sure, but boss abilities have clear signals either through animations, cast/health bars, or just the fight's cadence, that I go on to the exclusion of worrying about shouts or my boss mod.

[Merusk]

or hasnt figured out how to properly configure a basic party frame addon / make a mouseover dispell macro,

This right here?  You've just eliminated about 1/2 your playerbase, minimum.  There's tons of players who don't use macros at all, much less understand how to configure a mousover macro.  And why would they, when are they they ever taught it or is it required of them prior to heroics/ raiding?  Fuck, the nightmare it's been at times with the raid leader or someone else trying to teach people how to create a macro in the middle of a raid after "everyone has <xyz> macro, right?" was asked in vent.

[amiable]

I am a healer, and let me tell you, I literally could not do my job without these mods.  

Sounds like a you problem. 

I will grant you that the default UI isn't ideal for healers, but literally not able to do your job is a lot different from makes your job easier.

 

[Malakili]

You know what, if you can't be fucked to learn how to play the game, I have no sympathy for you.  That isn't aimed a particular "you" in this thread, its just a general show of frustration at the general "Well thats too hard for some people" posts.  Too fucking bad, the game is totally playable in its current state if you are willing to put in just a bare minimum of effort, and is still far more casual friendly than most MMORPGs out there.  If you just want to log in and get upgrades because you pay 15 bucks a month, you're the kind of people that has made this genre suck over the last 8-10 years.

[WindupAtheist]

u mad bro?

[Ingmar]

You know what, if you can't be fucked to learn how to play the game, I have no sympathy for you.  That isn't aimed a particular "you" in this thread, its just a general show of frustration at the general "Well thats too hard for some people" posts.  Too fucking bad, the game is totally playable in its current state if you are willing to put in just a bare minimum of effort, and is still far more casual friendly than most MMORPGs out there.  If you just want to log in and get upgrades because you pay 15 bucks a month, you're the kind of people that has made this genre suck over the last 8-10 years.

Mouseover healing macros and setups that require multiple external addons go well beyond 'bare minimum effort'.

[caladein]

I think the macro writing UI could get a million times better, but even if it does I don't think it's reasonable to expect all players to write their macros from scratch.  Programming logic on the level of 99% of WoW macros is very easy to teach or create a GUI for, but that doesn't mean that players will want to play around with it on their spare time.

That said, @mouseover macros aren't required at all, they just combine two very common actions together into one.  If players don't want to roll their own, they can use a mod like Clique.  If a player doesn't want to use either their performance isn't automatically inferior to someone who does because of things like the GCD and focus target.

At the point where macros can become incredibly powerful (e.g. any raid boss requiring interrupts, Cho'gall) it's not unreasonable to expect there to be someone available to help everyone through the process.

[Rasix]

You guys are killing me.

Carry on.   

[amiable]

You know what, if you can't be fucked to learn how to play the game, I have no sympathy for you.  That isn't aimed a particular "you" in this thread, its just a general show of frustration at the general "Well thats too hard for some people" posts.  Too fucking bad, the game is totally playable in its current state if you are willing to put in just a bare minimum of effort, and is still far more casual friendly than most MMORPGs out there.  If you just want to log in and get upgrades because you pay 15 bucks a month, you're the kind of people that has made this genre suck over the last 8-10 years.

I would prefer my welfare epics just sent to me via in game mail thank you.

In other news, I have read this screed a thousand times by the raiding set.  This philosophy has been proven its worth time again by the remarkable success of such titles as "Vanguard" and "Every Korean MMORPG ever made."  Listen dude, if you want to spend hours stabbing yourself in the dick, more power to you, but fun gameplay this does not make.  But then again I am the asshole arguing with someone whose definition of "bare minimum of effort" reads like a job description, honestly we just exist in different universes so I will leave it at that.

[Malakili]

honestly we just exist in different universes so I will leave it at that.

This is true, I'm totally unable to relate to someone who cares enough to want to be able to beat heroics, but doesn't care enough to want to actually get better at the game.  I'm really sorry that learning/improving at something is similar to "stabbing yourself in the dick" to you.  Remember, this argument isn't about grinding gear, this is about getting better at the game.  I don't play Korean MMOs and I hate grinding in general.

I'd like to slam dunk, but I don't want to practice jumping.
I'd like to run a 6 minute mile, but I don't like cardio.
I'd like to get "A"s in school, but I don't like studying.
I'd like to win at Chess, but I don't care to learn how the pieces work.

It makes no sense.

[Ingmar]

No, the problem is you see heroics as a 6 minute mile, where most people think they should be a friendly jog in the park with some friends.

[Nebu]

No, the problem is you see heroics as a 6 minute mile, where most people think they should be a friendly jog in the park with some friends.

I thought regular dungeons were intended for the casual folks and the heroics were for the hardcore crowd.  While I realize that WotLK altered this, they were brought back to this standard in the new expansion.  Am I mistaken?

[amiable]

honestly we just exist in different universes so I will leave it at that.

This is true, I'm totally unable to relate to someone who cares enough to want to be able to beat heroics, but doesn't care enough to want to actually get better at the game.  I'm really sorry that learning/improving at something is similar to "stabbing yourself in the dick" to you.  Remember, this argument isn't about grinding gear, this is about getting better at the game.  I don't play Korean MMOs and I hate grinding in general.

I'd like to slam dunk, but I don't want to practice jumping.
I'd like to run a 6 minute mile, but I don't like cardio.
I'd like to get "A"s in school, but I don't like studying.
I'd like to win at Chess, but I don't care to learn how the pieces work.

It makes no sense.

I did not realize heroics were the pinnacle of WoW.  I always thought that Blizzard included raids as an enticement for the dick-stabbing set, and that 5 mans were intended to provide content for more casual player.   I was in a top raid guild in vanilla, I am a perfectly adequate player who does everything necessary to succeed in heroics (I have successfully run every heroic in random groups).  If you would spend a few minutes actually examining my argument instead of engaging in a dick measuring contest where you proclaim anyone not at your level of play as irredeemably terrible you would see that there is a large portion of the player base that the new level of difficulty is simply locking out of most of the game content.  This large group of people includes my wife and most of my friends which I find sad, because they are not terrible players but just not at raid-quality level.

But I will let you return to your regularly scheduled superiority complex.  You must be terribly proud of all your amazing video game accomplishments.

[Lakov_Sanite]

No, the problem is you see heroics as a 6 minute mile, where most people think they should be a friendly jog in the park with some friends.

I thought regular dungeons were intended for the casual folks and the heroics were for the hardcore crowd.  While I realize that WotLK altered this, they were brought back to this standard in the new expansion.  Am I mistaken?

That's sort of the point of this whole thing. People liked wotlk, they got record subs in wotlk so why the fuck would they ever think making heroics a cockstab would be a good idea? I don't think anyone is saying heroics should be a faceroll by why not have a sliding scale on things normal dungeons > H dungeons > Raids > H raids.

right now its more like Dungeons >>>>>>> H dungeons/raids >>>>>>> H raids

[Rokal]

I'm sorry, but bullshit.   Sure, if you are walking into heroics dripping in full raid gear you can power through without difficulty, or if your Jesus McAwesome multitasker who can read the chat log while running around doing full dps/healing and avoiding standing in fire it is possible.  But if you coming in in a premade with average folks who just are hitting the gear level you need mods for quite a few fights.  A few examples:

The first fight dragon boss in grim batol, knowing who is going to get charged will save your dps and or healers life.  
Knowing when a big ability you need to interrupt is up is necessary for countless fights.
Sometimes the graphic display of where an AOE boss ability lands doesn't exactly synch up with the radius.  Unless you are paying atention to your health bar at all times you may not know to reposition yourself without something like GTFO.
A big warning about the shadow gate is necessary for the last boss in Grim batal, because the f-ing shadow gate looks so graphically similar to the same bosses AOE damage ability.
Cleansing static cling on the last boss of pinnacle vortex is a nightmare without decursive, because the debuff doesn't show up very well on the default ui.

What are you talking about?

Another way to tell who the first boss of Grim Batol is charging is to either look at who he is targeting by manually clicking on him, or just get out of the way if you see him turn to face you. Even if you are standing next to another dude and it turns out he was the person targeted, you'd still need to move, so watching the position of the dragon is the only thing you need to do. Absolutely does not require a mod even a little bit.

If someone is interrupting a boss (lets say Lady Naz'jar and Erunak), they should have the boss targeted and they will see a cast bar whenever the spell is being cast. In all of the 5-man content with bosses like that, the boss you need to interrupt is the only enemy you have to deal with. Add that to the fact that most dps (who will be usually be doing the interrupting) have to watch the boss's healthbar with the default UI anyway to do their dps rotation correctly, and it's pretty easy for them to watch for a cast bar and click their interrupt spell that isn't even on the GCD anymore.

If you are taking damage from an aoe with a slightly larger radius than the graphic, usually there is also a spell animation for your character taking damage. You might not notice your health going down, but if your character is bursting into flames every second, you should probably notice that.

The shadow gale graphic is much larger than the small shadow bind root he throws at people. I think they could have done a better job making the graphic for each look even more different, but I never had any problems telling the two apart, and you are given a large amount of time to run to the gale.

As for static cling, I think the default UI is fine and you can also customize it a bit for debuffs too. That said, static cling doesn't need to be removed instantly, and most times it doesn't need to be removed at all (it usually falls off before the triangle finishes casting). You can also completely avoid the static cling be jumping when the boss casts it, but I realize most players don't do that.

I did all of the heroics without any mods when Cata launched, and I don't think myself or my guild are that exceptional. Mods are definitely not required to play the game, especially not 5-mans. I only installed DBM when I started raiding again, because trying to do something like Omnitron without timers for abilities really was just a huge disadvantage. I mostly use the default blizzard UI, including the raid UI, because they really have made a lot of improvements.

[Malakili]

This large group of people includes my wife and most of my friends which I find sad, because they are not terrible players but just not at raid-quality level.

Normal mode exists.  If you'll recall, Heroics were added originally in part for players who wanted a tougher kind of content to do but did not have a schedule that would permit regular raiding.  They added 10man dungeons for a similar reason.  The big issue back in vanilla, as you must remember, is not that people said raiding was too hard to do, but rather that people simply couldn't manage to meet the logistical challenges.  Fine, said blizzard, here is some tougher content for small groups so that you don't need to plan your evenings around doing it.

[Ingmar]

No, the problem is you see heroics as a 6 minute mile, where most people think they should be a friendly jog in the park with some friends.

I thought regular dungeons were intended for the casual folks and the heroics were for the hardcore crowd.  While I realize that WotLK altered this, they were brought back to this standard in the new expansion.  Am I mistaken?

The problem is heroic gear is more or less a prerequisite to raiding. Thus for "casual" raiding to work, those players need to be able to complete heroics. If you could reasonably expect to jump into 10 man normal raiding in 333 gear from normals and be successful (as players who struggled in heroic 5s, mind you), then heroics could be as hardcore as they wanted, but that isn't the case.

They have clearly gotten easier, I haven't been playing much but I did run a couple with some guildmates and they weren't as bad as they once were. I'm not even sure where I land on the argument myself to be honest - I like the harder fights in the right group but I very much dislike the social consequences - but it is pretty clear a large majority of players want the heroics to generally be easier.

[amiable]

Normal mode exists.

True, but the issue as described above is the group I am in is face-rolling normals and then running into a brick wall at heroics.  I think a more gradual increase in difficulty would be appropriate.

[Sjofn]

It also wouldn't be such a big deal if there were more than three (I think three?) level 85 normal dungeons. But there aren't. So people want to do heroics for that reason alone. It was pretty much the only reason I wanted to get heroic geared on my rogue, so I'd have more damn variety.

[caladein]

True, but the issue as described above is the group I am in is face-rolling normals and then running into a brick wall at heroics.

I don't see how.  The instances are broadly similar and you obviously have the gear for them.  Are you just running in there and expecting to AOE everything down?  How is your group composed?  As a premade group you don't have the buffer from Luck of the Draw or a possible ringer so that becomes a consideration.  In general, healing has a bit of a spike in difficulty around that level of gear, but a group that knows the fights shouldn't be causing your mana bar many issues.

[amiable]

True, but the issue as described above is the group I am in is face-rolling normals and then running into a brick wall at heroics.

I don't see how.  The instances are broadly similar and you obviously have the gear for them.  Are you just running in there and expecting to AOE everything down?  How is your group composed?  As a premade group you don't have the buffer from Luck of the Draw or a possible ringer so that becomes a consideration.  In general, healing has a bit of a spike in difficulty around that level of gear, but a group that knows the fights shouldn't be causing your mana bar many issues.

The problem is as you describe, the tank is not super geared warrior (although everything is a 333 blus or higher).  My pally is well geared (everything 346 and above) and the DPS are a mix (most are averaging between 6-8k for non movement intensive fights).    The issue we are running into is that keeping the tank up requires a pretty constant spam of greater heals and the dps is not able to dps the boss down before my mana pool runs out (yes I judge on cooldown, beacon the tank, use HS/WOG when available and am properly geared/specced, at least according to elitist jerks).   In general we don't have problems with trash pulls, we use target marking/cc and they are pretty easy save for dumb mistakes like being feared or thrown into a second group.

I would argue that the mechanics in some cases are NOT broadly similar, for example, the second boss in Grim Batol.  In normals when he dons his shield it is a slow time where I can top everyone off, in heroics it is a rush to get into position so you are not hit by the flaming rockets of death.  In heroics the ground slam by the third boss in Stonecore is pretty much an instant kill.  

The decision we have made is to spend as much effort as possible to gear up our tank.  He still has 3-5 dps pieces in slots and that is a problem, and his trinkets are poor.    Still, a slightly undergeared tank shouldn't make running these things impossible.

[Rendakor]

No, the problem is you see heroics as a 6 minute mile, where most people think they should be a friendly jog in the park with some friends.

I thought regular dungeons were intended for the casual folks and the heroics were for the hardcore crowd.  While I realize that WotLK altered this, they were brought back to this standard in the new expansion.  Am I mistaken?

The issue is that WotLK was, for many, seen as a step in the right direction while Cata has taken a step back. The standard you mention was only established in BC anyway; one expansion of cock stabbing and one expansion of friendly park jogging. It's not like WotLK bucked a particularly long trend.

If there were a larger number of 85 normal dungeons that gave 346 gear, with Heroics giving 359 gear (equivalent to first tier raid) and seen as a separate challenging 5-man progression it might not be so bad.

[SurfD]

The decision we have made is to spend as much effort as possible to gear up our tank.  He still has 3-5 dps pieces in slots and that is a problem, and his trinkets are poor.    Still, a slightly undergeared tank shouldn't make running these things impossible.

Actually, this is probably ENTIRELY the problem right here.  

You are running into a problem because your tank is not geared for heroics.  3-5 dps pieces and bad trinkets?!?!  Thats like 1/4 of his gear.  That is not a "slightly undergered tank".   You may be able to get away with that in normals, but Cata is designed so that that just wont cut it in heroics.  A properly geared tank is probably the most important factor in survivability in a heroic, immediately followed by a good healer, which you say you have covered.

Find out what upgrades he needs to get out ot his dps gear, and focus on getting rid of those first. What kind of Class is your tank?  Is he specced right? Gemmed / chanted / reforged correctly?  Is he grinding rep for his tanking epics? I mean, if a raid ready healer (if you are above Ilevel 346 average, you essentially have no further upgrade path in heroics), is having issues keeping the tank up untill the dps kills the boss, it should be blindingly obvious where the problem is.

[Lantyssa]

Here's the problem:  Does Blizzard like money and popularity, or being able to claim their players enjoy difficult challenges which require skill?  They get to pick one.

If there isn't a sliding difficulty then someone always has to be the one that fulfills the "this game isn't for you" condition.  As a company, guess which one they're going to side with.

[Paelos]

This is true, I'm totally unable to relate to someone who cares enough to want to be able to beat heroics, but doesn't care enough to want to actually get better at the game.

Sounds like a you problem.

[Rendakor]

Anyone else remember before Cata launched, all that talk about how an Arms Warrior would be able to just put on a shield and tank heroics?  

[Malakili]

This is true, I'm totally unable to relate to someone who cares enough to want to be able to beat heroics, but doesn't care enough to want to actually get better at the game.

Sounds like a you problem.

Not really, since I actually think Cataclysm is better than Wrath.

[SurfD]

Anyone else remember before Cata launched, all that talk about how an Arms Warrior would be able to just put on a shield and tank heroics?  

Actually, I am pretty sure that the talk was about how most "tank capable dps classes" could throw on a bit of tank gear and tank Normals in their dps spec, but that they WOULD have to gear and spec properly for Heroics.

[Ingmar]

Anyone else remember before Cata launched, all that talk about how an Arms Warrior would be able to just put on a shield and tank heroics?  

Actually, I am pretty sure that the talk was about how most "tank capable dps classes" could throw on a bit of tank gear and tank Normals in their dps spec, but that they WOULD have to gear and spec properly for Heroics.

Yeah that is right.

[Paelos]

This is true, I'm totally unable to relate to someone who cares enough to want to be able to beat heroics, but doesn't care enough to want to actually get better at the game.

Sounds like a you problem.

Not really, since I actually think Cataclysm is better than Wrath.

I know you do. It's adorable. Keep fighting the good fight.

[Malakili]

This is true, I'm totally unable to relate to someone who cares enough to want to be able to beat heroics, but doesn't care enough to want to actually get better at the game.

Sounds like a you problem.

Not really, since I actually think Cataclysm is better than Wrath.

I know you do. It's adorable. Keep fighting the good fight.

*shrugs* People make arguments all the time on these forums that what makes a game "better" isn't always what makes it more popular. 

[Paelos]

*shrugs* People make arguments all the time on these forums that what makes a game "better" isn't always what makes it more popular. 

Very true. Without bringing any subjective terms into it, all they did was make the product less accessible to their clients. It's hard for me to as a business minded person to come up with many examples of that being a good idea when you aren't changing your price structure to compensate.

[Rokal]

I would argue that the mechanics in some cases are NOT broadly similar, for example, the second boss in Grim Batol.  In normals when he dons his shield it is a slow time where I can top everyone off, in heroics it is a rush to get into position so you are not hit by the flaming rockets of death.  In heroics the ground slam by the third boss in Stonecore is pretty much an instant kill.  

The decision we have made is to spend as much effort as possible to gear up our tank.  He still has 3-5 dps pieces in slots and that is a problem, and his trinkets are poor.    Still, a slightly undergeared tank shouldn't make running these things impossible.

There is no way to avoid the flaming arrows in heroic btw, but you do have the time between when he stopped using his last weapon, and when he starts using his shield to top people off. There is no "rush to position" so much as "don't stand in the fire being sprayed out of the shield" (just like normal mode).

If your tank lacks gear, instead of queueing for a random heroic, why not queue for one of the easier heroics that also has tank upgrades like Vortex Pinnacle?

Are your DPS friends doing enough damage? If not, they should be able to take 3 minutes to read the EJ thread for their spec and they're have fixed their DPS until major changes are made to their class.

Are they doing stupid stuff like standing in fire and wasting your mana?

If you can complete these dungeons with random players, you should be able to complete them with your friends without the 'luck of the draw' buff. The advantage of playing with people you know is that it is easier to communicate when something goes wrong. If you keep running oom on the second boss in GB, ask yourself "Am I having to heal the other players besides the tank in the group too much? Are they standing in Cave Ins? Are they standing in Lava? Are they standing in the fire from the shield?" Take a look at the battlefield next time something is going wrong, and politely suggest a correction when you notice a problem. If you are friends with these players it shouldn't be hard to say "Man, that Cave In damage is huge. Can you guys try to get out of that faster? Make sure to watch out for it especially when he is using his shield attack because that's what's killing us" You could also use something like recount to see what is doing damage to people, but without addons it's still possible to pinpoint and correct play mistakes.

Of course, if you are like everyone else complaining about heroic difficulty,  your attitude when you wipe is probably "this shit is too hard" instead of "how we can adjust what we are doing to win?"

[Merusk]

MMO Raider-Speak translated to other games: If you can't be bothered to learn how to use tactics and program the AI in Dragon Age/ DA2, you don't deserve to finish the game at all.