Cataclysm

[Paelos]

I totally disagree with the "people can't get better at raiding" sentiments.

Your examples sucked. Good players can learn just fine, but they were always good players. They just didn't have experience in the zones, even though the game has been out for 6 years.

What we're discussing is the player who's played for 4 years, is a friend of yours, that you knew before this whole expansion dropped was going to have a problem, and un-shockingly couldn't hack it and quit-rerolled-left-drama-bombed. It's the old dogs principle at work. Will there be exceptions to the rule? Sure. Maybe one day one of your dps discovers sobriety and stops sucking. Maybe your healer finally gets that divorce and can game to her hearts content.

It's just damned unlikely, but whatever. They will get it eventually when people's extended subs run out the population craters.

[apocrypha]

So what you're saying is bad players will always be bad players unless they're not really bad players? OK, whatever... 

[Azuredream]

So what you're saying is bad players will always be bad players unless they're not really bad players? OK, whatever... 

Just because a player is new doesn't mean they're a bad player. So it would more be "bad players will always be bad players unless they are new players."

[Malakili]

So what you're saying is bad players will always be bad players unless they're not really bad players? OK, whatever... 

No, hes just defining bad player differently than you are.  You are defining it as ANYONE who isn't good at the game right now.  He is defining it as someone who lacks the inherent skills (dexterity, multitasking, whatever) necessary to perform at a high level, not people who simply haven't played before.

[Paelos]

So what you're saying is bad players will always be bad players unless they're not really bad players? OK, whatever... 

Don't be obtuse. You know exactly what I mean.

[Sheepherder]

People can track only track a finite number of things simultaneously before they start seeing huge, rapidly increasing lapses in ability to switch focus in a timely manner, react to stimuli, and avoid (compounding) error(s).  This should come as a surprise to no one, but apparently it does.

[kildorn]

I've seen plenty of people improve at the game. Mostly, it's just getting good enough at their base rotations/whatnot that they can actually focus on the macro aspects of the encounter. A good example in Wrath was Ignis. Chaotic, impossible fight until it clicks, and you zoom way the fuck out and mentally tune out everything that doesn't matter to you personally.

I've seen plenty of things in Cata where the time to react or wipe is tuned too tightly/randomly for certain players to cope. People who get "run from X", but can't mentally switch from "okay, I saw X" to "now run" in less than the second provided.

One of the bigger heroic pains I ever had were the various bosses in GB. Exploding Elementals spawning from random locations and rushing random people = high chance for a short "fuse" on a player with a long task switching time. That makes for frustrating gameplay, and a terrible design for heroic gameplay.

If you want "raid game is hard, we will tune it down later", the rest of the playerbase needs something to do in the mean time that seems constructive/fun. Your raids can be dick-in-window fests, as long as your heroics are forgiving. The problem I ran into with Cata was that if I didn't want to deal with tightly tuned practically raid encounters in heroics where any random person can immediately wipe us if they so much as lag for 10 seconds at the wrong moment, I had to do what.. 3 normals that wouldn't give me anything?

I feel bad for essentially wandering away from the game, but there's nothing there that I want to do right now. I like a challenge, and I like feeling like I need to play better. I don't like the idea that anyone in the group not bringing their A game = six hours of slogging.

[Malakili]

The problem I ran into with Cata was that if I didn't want to deal with tightly tuned practically raid encounters

The funny thing is that for years people were saying "gee, I wish they would give us cool encounters like they have in raids for people that can't raid."  I did Heroic Deadmines for the first time the other day and had that one fight where the guy has the spinning fire line of death or something like that.  Anyway, I was running it with a guildie that I go way back with, and 3 randoms.  She told me "Ok, this guy has a C'thun Dark Glare like this but with fire, just stay out of it."  I lol'd when I beat the encounter and took no damage from it and got the achievement "Ready for Raiding"

[caladein]

The elementals on Drahga Shadowburner telegraph their location a few seconds before they spawn, don't move for another second or so once they do spawn, and can be snared and stunned.  If someone gets beaned by that, it's because they weren't paying attention in the preceding five to ten seconds and got the short straw to boot.  Which is what a lot of dungeon and normal raid boss abilities are like.

[kildorn]

The elementals on Drahga Shadowburner telegraph their location a few seconds before they spawn, don't move for another second or so once they do spawn, and can be snared and stunned.  If someone gets beaned by that, it's because they weren't paying attention in the preceding five to ten seconds and got the short straw to boot.  Which is what a lot of dungeon and normal raid boss abilities are like.

And yet: they kill more people than anything, and explode in a large enough radius that someone getting beaned by one = likely wipe.

What happened to us frequently was Cone AE from dragon + portal opening in the huge takes over the screen spell effect + picking the lowest reaction time player. Hello garunteed death.

Or my favorite: picking the healer or the tank six times in a row.

Anything that is "deal with this or oneshot dead" = you've removed the ability for people to compensate for poor players. THAT is why people stopped playing Cata. Because I'm unwilling to play a game where I need to take a friend aside and say "sorry, but we want to have fun tonight. So can you go do something else?"

[Lakov_Sanite]

The exploding elementals in GB also gave me a seizure once.  No green text there either, their death flashing animation put me into a grand mal seizure.

[caladein]

Yeah, the death animations for Cata elementals have this pulsing light effect for some stupid reason.  I vaguely remember them saying they were going to patch that out.

[Paelos]

I would like to see what would happen if they brought back Teron Gorefiend mechanics into this player pool.

Because you know it's going to pick that one person how has no fucking idea what they are doing.

[Malakili]

I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.

This was a response to someone asking why WoW was so easy and dumbed down now (apparently the person hadn't played at all since vanilla WoW.  Gives a little perspective I guess, I think Cataclysm is SO much more casual friendly than those days, and its probably more casual friendly than the game has ever been except for during Wrath of the Lich King.

I do think Bashiok was being a little disingenuous though.

[Setanta]

I would like to see what would happen if they brought back Teron Gorefiend mechanics into this player pool.

Because you know it's going to pick that one person how has no fucking idea what they are doing.

Gorefiend was a wuss compared to the original Aran mechanics  The original was a case of knowing what to do PLUS beating the RNG that threw every ability at you at once for those that didn't experience the tears.

[Setanta]

edit: stoopid double post

[Zetor]

I bet Aran would fuck people up even in 2011.

"wtf? I need to STAY IN the fire and MOVE OUT of the blizzard?"

[Malakili]

I bet Aran would fuck people up even in 2011.

"wtf? I need to STAY IN the fire and MOVE OUT of the blizzard?"

Shade of Aran was difficult, but the encounter was pretty awesome in my opinion. 

[Sheepherder]

It wasn't that difficult once Blizzard figured out which moved needed to not occur simultaneously.  Just about the only thing I've ever seen consistently wipe people was water elementals and either mass sheep or flame wrath.

[Fordel]

I still think they need to replace Balinda in AV with a level appropriate Shade of Aran. Just for the lulz and all that.   

[Lakov_Sanite]

"I am no mere honor kill!"

[Ingmar]

I still think they need to replace Balinda in AV with a level appropriate Shade of Aran. Just for the lulz and all that.   

That would be glorious.

[sinij]

Shade of Aran, Safety Dance and a lot of similar mechanically difficult fights could be finished with only couple people left standing. I know, because I have done it multiple times. Beating encounter wasn't about everyone executing it 100%, it was more of "do some of you know mechanics and can do it" check. In Cata *everyone* has to be able to do it, and that where they went wrong. Most people can't or won't improve.

[Rokal]

That's not really true. I wiped tons of times on Aran because one person in the group screwed up. The difference between Heigan and Aran is that screwing up on Heigan meant you died. Screwing up on Aran meant there was a good chance almost everyone in the room would die. Aran also had an enrage timer, so if half of your raid died early into the fight because one idiot walked through flame wreath there really was no recovery. It's exactly the same as the "pass/fail" Cata fights, if not a little bit less forgiving. If one person blows up on Drahga, it's not guaranteed that it will hit everyone in the room, or even that it will kill the person it does hit. Comparing Aran to any Cata raid fight actually would suggest that Cata raids are more forgiving, since there is nothing that will blatantly wipe your raid if one person screws up. You could argue that something like Atramedes gongs are pass/fail, but more than one person can try clicking a single gong, and there is a small window where someone else could dash to a gong and hit it before your raid wipes if the person assigned to the gong is asleep.

[proudft]

Yeah, Heigan had the redeeming feature that if 8 out of 10 of you were dead, but one of the two of you that was left could cure disease, and you were JUST THAT ANGRY AT EVERYONE, you could win.  Eventually.  And those people that killed themselves off had to lie there and suffer, as they should.

[Ingmar]

I loved doing that to people.

[Malakili]

Shade of Aran, Safety Dance and a lot of similar mechanically difficult fights could be finished with only couple people left standing. I know, because I have done it multiple times. Beating encounter wasn't about everyone executing it 100%, it was more of "do some of you know mechanics and can do it" check. In Cata *everyone* has to be able to do it, and that where they went wrong. Most people can't or won't improve.

I disagree, there were plenty of fights with a razor thin margin for error long before Cata. C'thun is a good example (one person could end up causing a beam chain that could kill multiple people, and ESPECAILLY when you hadn't yet massively outgeared thefight, you really needed all the DPS you could still alive for phase 2.  Usually if we had more the 2 people die in phase 1, our raid leader would simply call for a wipe.  Gruul comes to mind (pre-nerf), as one or two people could cause the death of a bunch, and then you wouldn't have enough DPS to take him down before the enrage.  Like wise with a number of other DPS races which had mechanics that could easily gank people if they weren't paying attention.   One person pulled aggro on Twin Emps and then got into healing range, you were fucked.   

The point is, lots of fights had a one mistake and you lose aspect, going back to Vanilla or TBC.  I'm guessing that WOTLK had some (but I guess a lot less?) of these fights but I didn't raid in WOTLK, or Cata for that matter.

[Merusk]

Yeah, Heigan had the redeeming feature that if 8 out of 10 of you were dead, but one of the two of you that was left could cure disease, and you were JUST THAT ANGRY AT EVERYONE, you could win.  Eventually.  And those people that killed themselves off had to lie there and suffer, as they should.

I loved doing that to people.

Ditto.  We had one fight where everyone except a druid, priest, my SK and a tank were dead on a 25-man.   It was the 5th or 6th attempt of the night, so we said fuck it and finished it ourselves.  It took for-fucking-ever.

[Paelos]

I disagree, there were plenty of fights with a razor thin margin for error long before Cata...C'thun, Gruul, Twin Emps...

Gruul I will grant you. That was in the first tier of TBC raiding and it was horribly tough pre-nerf. The last 2 bosses of AQ40 though? Yeah I'm ok with that being tough. I mean why not compare Sunwell stuff while we're at it?

The point right now is that there are so many razor's edge fights in the very first tier of raiding content. That's stupid. They allowed no transition between Wrath style to their new style. They just hit everyone in the face with it and hoped that God would sort out the dead.

[Sjofn]

Doing Heigan with two or three people is one of life's simple pleasures. I was always Just That Angry to make them sit there and wait, I don't care if it takes ALL NIGHT because the only people left are the protection warrior and the holy paladin.

Kildorn used to make it his life's ambition to get this one dude through that boss. I don't think he ever managed it.  

[Malakili]

I disagree, there were plenty of fights with a razor thin margin for error long before Cata...C'thun, Gruul, Twin Emps...

Gruul I will grant you. That was in the first tier of TBC raiding and it was horribly tough pre-nerf. The last 2 bosses of AQ40 though? Yeah I'm ok with that being tough. I mean why not compare Sunwell stuff while we're at it?

The point right now is that there are so many razor's edge fights in the very first tier of raiding content. That's stupid. They allowed no transition between Wrath style to their new style. They just hit everyone in the face with it and hoped that God would sort out the dead.

Ah, I guess I didn't realize you were making the distinction between first tier raiding content and later content in an expansion.  I'll back off what I said some then.  In any case, I don't have particularly much more to say on the topic, I haven't raided in WoW "seriously" since SSC and TK were the current tier of content, and maybe thats my problem.  I never experienced WOTLK raiding, as I mentioned, so for me I just have always associated raiding with "you need to not suck, deal with it or GTFO."   

[Paelos]

I have no problem with the philosophy of "you need to not suck or GTFO" when it comes to raids. The stratification of raiding into 10s and 25s with normal and hardcore components have opened doors for the designers to embrace that philosophy and apply it where it would do the most good. Right now, my main concern is that they have applied it to everything, essentially making the need for regular and hardcore modes useless.

The regulars were too tough for regulars, and the hardcores are melting people's faces even at the topmost tier. It's like a developer making a regular edition and a collectors edition as we have now where regular is $50 and collectors is $75. Then, one day they decide that's not enough, so they make the regular edition $100 and the collector's $200. The millions of people lapping it up suddenly go, wait WTF? That's ridiculous! Several still buy it because they will pay anything to play and will put up with whatever, but they effectively priced themselves out of a large portion of their market due to their choices.

In that example, they could still justify making the switch because of the higher revenue per user and the cut variable costs associated with having fewer players. In the case of Blizzard "pricing" themselves out of the raiding market with these choices, they are just going to hemorrhage cash.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Just want to chime in that I was on one of those 3-man heigan fights me as shadow dps, pally healer and druid tank. This is from something crazy like 80% o his life. I think it is simultaneously one of the best and worst memories I have in wow.

[Merusk]

I just remembered we had a prot warrior as the last man standing on an Aran kill the 2nd or 3rd tiem we downed him.  The rest of us all exploded just after the elementals and he said "Fuck it, I'm trying."  No idea how the hell he lived through that last, what, 20% all on his own but he did and it was fantastic.

[Rasix]

Just want to chime in that I was on one of those 3-man heigan fights me as shadow dps, pally healer and druid tank. This is from something crazy like 80% o his life. I think it is simultaneously one of the best and worst memories I have in wow.

There was one I did that was at least over half an hour.  This is with a 25 man group where over half died during the first dance.  One of our main tanks suicided at the start because he didn't like the fight. 

For at least over 50% it was just a shaman, my death knight, and our death knight main tank for almost the entire thing.  I lost weapon upgrade to a guy that had died at the beginning.  I'd like to limit loot distribution on that fight to people that can actually complete it, but I know some people die due to lag or a healer not getting rid of the disease, not necessarily because they suck.

The second time I had to do a marathon Heigan, because people sucked, I just quit the guild.