Cataclysm

[Lakov_Sanite]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jg11_E3DfQ


Interesting lore stuff. I'm thinking Garrosh won't be warchief by the end of the expansion.

[Fordel]

I can't imagine PvPing with sound off, that little "vooou" noise stealth'ers make is usually my only real warning that they are near.

[WindupAtheist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jg11_E3DfQ


Interesting lore stuff. I'm thinking Garrosh won't be warchief by the end of the expansion.

Nah, Blizzard doesn't do nuance and they're putting too much effort into reforming Garrosh's image, what with him throwing that general off a cliff for committing atrocities, etc. At some point Garrosh and Vol'jin will end up making up, is my guess. Or they'll just bicker forever.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'm not talking anytime soon but in one-two years? Sure.  They're already showing that nothing is sacred, thrall was a very popular character and still is but they decided to give him up in favor of emochief. Plus with that little conversation and his words towards sylvanus I'm not sure Garrosh has much(if any) support within the horde. 

Consider that he's got the forsaken/elves/trolls against him and goblins only going where the money is or holding loyalty to thrall, things do not look good.  I mean hell, in that video vol'jin pretty bluntly said the moment garrosh was weak, he was gonna kill him. If garrosh isn't deposed than they are building up a lot of lore and in game flavor for nothing and that doesn't make a lot of sense.  In BC and wotlk almost all storylines went 'somewhere' hell they even went back and cleaned up the whole tirion fordring questline that went nowhere by having him create the argent crusade.

I think the days of vanilla static wow are over and they've leaned more towards couple year story arcs.  Things in cataclysm are pointing places and it fits the new pattern that we'll see some resolution to them.

[Sjofn]

Do people typically play with the sound on?  I haven't played WoW with the sound on in years.

Tanking with the sound on is like playing in a blender with a bunch of christmas lights.

I haven't had the sound on in the game since leveling in Goldshire.

EDIT: Sound off, sports game on the TV in the background, vent on high issuing orders / shooting the shit.

I'm the opposite, I cannot tank with the sound off. I usually have the music on, I just lower it when I'm raiding. I really like the music in WoW, generally.

I miss you, Karazhan organ!

[Ratman_tf]

I think they recognize that outdoor leveling content is a solo experience for most of their customer base and that people in general want it to stay that way. When you approach how you want to design for that market phasing is a logical improvement.

I love it, personally. Obviously that sort of thing could interfere if it was a game where people were constantly grouping up in the outside world but that's not the kind of game WoW is. It can't be all things to all people, and it hasn't been trying to be all things to all people for a very long time.

I'd argue that the reason most want to solo non-instance content is because Bilzz screwed the pooch pretty badly in making it fun to group for. Now it's irrelevant since they design towards that, but it's another step on the road towards massivley single player gaming.

Oh, and I despise phasing on that ground too. Those people at the Wrathgate are still fucking screaming at me!  

[Sjofn]

No, I'm pretty sure people prefer to solo non-instance stuff because it means you can do whatever the hell you want in whatever order you want for as long as you want.

[Malakili]

No, I'm pretty sure people prefer to solo non-instance stuff because it means you can do whatever the hell you want in whatever order you want for as long as you want.

Yeah, this is the reason.  I've leveled 2 character "with" someone else, and while its fun to have a Ventrilo buddy to chat it up with while levelling, it is NOT efficient or convenient.

[ezrast]

Yeah, this is the reason.  I've leveled 2 character "with" someone else, and while its fun to have a Ventrilo buddy to chat it up with while levelling, it is NOT efficient or convenient.

Which is a consequence of game design that isn't conducive to grouping. Unless you consider easily groupable leveling content to be inherently bad for some reason (which may be a valid viewpoint, but certainly not one I share), then yeah, Blizzard did a shitty job in this regard.

[Fordel]

Unless you can invent a video game that can bend the laws of time and space, it will never be convenient to group-based level.

[Sjofn]

It's not inherently bad but generally speaking, people like being able to do their own thing at their own pace without having anyone else be even the tiniest consideration. Even in CoX, where it was generally more fun to play in a group than solo, I liked to solo a lot of the time because it meant the only person I had to keep track of was me. And I'm someone who has a gamer husband who is perfectly happy to play with me whenever I ask. Unless it's doing a thing, like raiding or five mans or PvP, I think you'll find most people want to just do their own thing without having to worry about anyone else. And even the smallest thing, such as "do we have the same quests?" is still having to worry about someone else.

[Fabricated]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jg11_E3DfQ


Interesting lore stuff. I'm thinking Garrosh won't be warchief by the end of the expansion.

Nah, Blizzard doesn't do nuance and they're putting too much effort into reforming Garrosh's image, what with him throwing that general off a cliff for committing atrocities, etc. At some point Garrosh and Vol'jin will end up making up, is my guess. Or they'll just bicker forever.

I'm still thinking the time-warp with going from cataclysm Azeroth to Outlands to Northrend will confuse some players who bother reading the lore. You go from present day to 4 years ago (in game time) for Outlands to 2 years ago for Northrend and then pop out back into the present day Azeroth.

[Nevermore]

They can just stick a Bronze Dragon outside the Dark Portal that says "I'll show you how things used to be!"

[Sjofn]

They can but they don't seem to have done so. I really wish they would, seeing Garrosh being a giant crybaby in Nagrand would be a little weird for new people.

[Ratman_tf]

It's not inherently bad but generally speaking, people like being able to do their own thing at their own pace without having anyone else be even the tiniest consideration. Even in CoX, where it was generally more fun to play in a group than solo, I liked to solo a lot of the time because it meant the only person I had to keep track of was me. And I'm someone who has a gamer husband who is perfectly happy to play with me whenever I ask. Unless it's doing a thing, like raiding or five mans or PvP, I think you'll find most people want to just do their own thing without having to worry about anyone else. And even the smallest thing, such as "do we have the same quests?" is still having to worry about someone else.

Which is why I think a game that kept all the MMORPG trappings, but ditched all the group and raid content, focusing on the single player experience with social aspects would be a 'better' (or more focused anyway) game than shoehorning soloing into a game designed for grouping at the 'endgame'.

[Malakili]

Yeah, this is the reason.  I've leveled 2 character "with" someone else, and while its fun to have a Ventrilo buddy to chat it up with while levelling, it is NOT efficient or convenient.

Which is a consequence of game design that isn't conducive to grouping. Unless you consider easily groupable leveling content to be inherently bad for some reason (which may be a valid viewpoint, but certainly not one I share), then yeah, Blizzard did a shitty job in this regard.

Well, its pretty darn hard to do when you have quest based leveling at the very least, because if you aren't on the same steps, its a pain to get back on the same steps across the board.  So basically if you want to level together with someone you have to be really disciplined about only playing together on those characters, its just hard to pull off, there is always one person who ends up with more free time and ends up pushing ahead.

[Paelos]

I don't understand why people like leveling together. It brings back horrible memories of getting into forced groups in DAOC at spawn camps in order to get on the "Fins list." Blech.

I've always preferred questing at my own pace, but I do like grouping for dungeons.

[Draegan]

Even doing quests together with someone that are on the same step is incredibly annoying.  For example, I played with a friend of mine and all he did was wander around killing stuff randomly rather than running through the quest sequence.  I got impatient and went off on my own and he played at his own pace.

Unless you play with someone with your same play style, it's annoying to level together unless you're doing dungeons wholesale.

[Typhon]

Doing a drop quest in a group is pure frustration.  Want people to group?  Then everyone should get the drop whenever it drops.

Also, there needs to be some way to differentiate a quest that is more a "task" from quests that are intended to tell a story.  I would choose to do only "task" quests while in a group.  "Story" quests end up not being read with grouping (to not slow down the group), which seriously degrades the value of that content.  Either that, or make all quests play out via scripting rather than giving us a wall of text to read. (too expensive, I know)

All of this is why I thought that public quests were such a good idea.  WARs implementation needed significant work, but the core idea was good.  The encounter plays out and all you need to follow the action is on-screen the whole time.

Adding the concept of scaling the PQ to match the current number of users (scaling the rewards as well) alone would go a long way toward making these more interesting.  Give everyone a token for participating, give the major contributors the fixed loot.  Allow the player the option to take random loot instead of fixed loot to promote participation in the case where the player already has the fixed loot, or it's not appropriate for their character.  I know that tokens are viewed as immersion-breaking, but joining a quest that is already halfway complete, giving you no chance to get anything, kind of sucks.  Would be nice if everyone got something for their effort.

Also, don't have the same PQ play out everytime, have PQs be more reactive to player activity.  For example, based upon the outcome of a PQ spawn alternate PQs , essentially telling something like a story in that zone.  Two opposing forces within a zone push each other back and forth across the zone based upon the outcome of PQs that players do.   Also seems like an interesting way to do a PvP PQ.

[Rendakor]

Even doing quests together with someone that are on the same step is incredibly annoying.  For example, I played with a friend of mine and all he did was wander around killing stuff randomly rather than running through the quest sequence.  I got impatient and went off on my own and he played at his own pace.

Unless you play with someone with your same play style, it's annoying to level together unless you're doing dungeons wholesale.

This.

If you want to level with your friend but you or he can't be bothered to not play without each other, go do dungeons or BGs.

[Lantyssa]

<stuffs>

All this is why I'm hoping Guild Wars 2 pulls off everything they're trying.  It could alter all games in the future if it works.

[ezrast]

Yeah, this is the reason.  I've leveled 2 character "with" someone else, and while its fun to have a Ventrilo buddy to chat it up with while levelling, it is NOT efficient or convenient.

Which is a consequence of game design that isn't conducive to grouping. Unless you consider easily groupable leveling content to be inherently bad for some reason (which may be a valid viewpoint, but certainly not one I share), then yeah, Blizzard did a shitty job in this regard.

Well, its pretty darn hard to do when you have quest based leveling at the very least, because if you aren't on the same steps, its a pain to get back on the same steps across the board.  So basically if you want to level together with someone you have to be really disciplined about only playing together on those characters, its just hard to pull off, there is always one person who ends up with more free time and ends up pushing ahead.

Grant full quest XP to everyone in the party who participated, even if they aren't on that quest. Problem solved.

Even doing quests together with someone that are on the same step is incredibly annoying.  For example, I played with a friend of mine and all he did was wander around killing stuff randomly rather than running through the quest sequence.  I got impatient and went off on my own and he played at his own pace.

It's not inherently bad but generally speaking, people like being able to do their own thing at their own pace without having anyone else be even the tiniest consideration. Even in CoX, where it was generally more fun to play in a group than solo, I liked to solo a lot of the time because it meant the only person I had to keep track of was me.

If you solo because you don't want to deal with people, that's fine. If you solo because you don't want to deal with the game stimying your efforts to group at every turn, through level-limited content, quests that can't be grouped, stupid travel times, and making you vanish out of each others' world at X geographical location because it's totally more immersive that way, that's bad design.

If you don't ever want to group I'm not sure why you're not just playing Dragon Age.

[Simond]

Apparently (third hand beta info here) group leaders will be able to 'summon' people into the phase that they are currently in.

[Ratman_tf]

I don't understand why people like leveling together.

 

[Ingmar]

If you solo because you don't want to deal with the game stimying your efforts to group at every turn, through level-limited content, quests that can't be grouped, stupid travel times, and making you vanish out of each others' world at X geographical location because it's totally more immersive that way, that's bad design.

OK, no, "I don't like this game personally" is not the same thing as "bad design". You design for what your audience wants, and the audience for WoW overwhelmingly likes the way it is now.

They're not making the game for the small minority of people who want to have to group all the time for every activity. That doesn't make it 'bad'. It just makes it not aimed at your particular playstyle preference. Where are all the people going to say, the Eve subforum and complaining that there's not enough questing content and what's with making me join a corp to participate in pvp and omg I got podkilled by some teabagging Russian douchebag and holy crap it took me 45 minutes to fly to somewhere to buy a ship and oh god this game sucks?
 
You people (/points fingers vaguely) need to be better at admitting when a game just isn't aimed at you and just moving on.

[ezrast]

Again, if the audience overwhelmingly wants a game where they're forced to solo, why are they playing an MMO?

I'm not arguing that groups should be required to level. In fact I think most quests that require groups (in the context of WoW) are silly and annoying. I'm arguing that you shouldn't be forced to solo, when the structure of the game actually makes such a thing easy to avoid. Sidekicking, shared quest rewards, and the jump-to-party-leader's-phase thing are all pretty straightforward, non-controversial ways to fix the mechanics that currently render grouping a pain in the ass without changing the game at all for people who like to solo.

[Paelos]

I don't understand why people like leveling together.

 

Yeah I don't understand what you're going for there, either.

[Musashi]

Can we stop arguing about this stupid topic?  They make part of the game OK for solo.  Then they make part of the game OK for grouping.  They make battlegrounds where it's OK to queue by yourself.  Then they make others where you have to be grouped.  It seems to be working out okay for them, no?  Okay.  Cool.  Just checking.  If you absolutely have to RP every quest as a guilded group, then you can do it.  But god damn.  Have fun, I guess.

[Rasix]

Again, if the audience overwhelmingly wants a game where they're forced to solo, why are they playing an MMO?

I don't play MMOs for the people. 

[Nightblade]

Again, if the audience overwhelmingly wants a game where they're forced to solo, why are they playing an MMO?

I don't play MMOs for the people. 

Why do you play them, then?

The whole point of an MMO is supposed to be about being a part of something larger than yourself. Playing in a big, living and breathing world with a large amount of other players. Whether you're working together with friends or strangers towards a common goal, playing the market, or just speaking with people.

It's been awhile since I played WoW, but I remember leaving because little by little, the game's sense of community was being systemically killed by the new things introduced in the game. By the time I left the game (towards the end of Burning Crusade), the game was little more than a single player game with a multiplayer lobby.

[Lantyssa]

Graphical chat.  I can't talk with my guildies when playing Mass Effect.

[Ingmar]

Exactly.

Also, because you still have the option to get together and do a dungeon or roll around Emain or whatever the particular game you're playing offers for group content - even if you're solo 90% of the time that 10% of the time you're doing group content with people still has value very different than what a single player game offers.

[Nightblade]

So instead of playing a full fledged single player RPG, you'd rather play a watered down version of one so that you can chat with your friends... Something that can be accomplished with Steam, mIRC, or Ventrilo/Teamspeak (applications already actively used by WoW players)

Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it.

[Malakili]

So instead of playing a full fledged single player RPG, you'd rather play a watered down version of one so that you can chat with your friends... Something that can be accomplished with Steam, mIRC, or Ventrilo/Teamspeak (applications already actively used by WoW players)

Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it.

The MMOG genre is no longer about all that stuff you mentioned in a previous post, its not about big worlds, or persistence, or working towards a common goal, heck, its not even about social gaming anymore.  Its just about gaming on a social platform.  Soon every new MMO will be a higher budget facebook game.  Or at least, most of them.

[Lantyssa]

So instead of playing a full fledged single player RPG, you'd rather play a watered down version of one so that you can chat with your friends... Something that can be accomplished with Steam, mIRC, or Ventrilo/Teamspeak (applications already actively used by WoW players)

I don't do voice and the other two I can't do at the same time I'm playing a game.

There are other aspects to it.  I'm picking the main social one since that's a big point of online games.