Cataclysm

[Sjofn]

As for Sylvanas, unlike the rest of her people, she doesn't seem to have the "Death to the living" attitude, and she does display loyalty to Thrall.  Which is good, because it's only the blind devotion to her that keep most of the Forsaken in check.  So, I don't think she's going to go evil, but given that the Horde, as a whole, really doesn't like the Forsaken, this may cause some hard times.

She may be softening up lately, but she definitely had the Death to the Living attitude. She is/was all over making a new plague.

I know what the manual states, but I doubt Sylvanas was intricately involved in the development of the plague.  Otherwise, neither Putress nor Varithiamas would have been to get as far a they did.  I assume she trusted him enough, ans was content to rely on reports and presentations.  She is very busy running the day to day affairs of the Undercity.  However, Sylvanas has never been about "death to the living."  She's no angel, she did kill Garithos and force Varithimas to kill his brother, but she was more about survival than slaughter.  She was nobility in her life, and that streak carried over into her undeath.

Like Ingmar said, specifically setting up the RAP for plague purposes makes her just as guilty as being all "death to the living" as the rest of the Forsaken. I will buy that part of why Putress turned on her was because she's softened on that stance (I doubt she could bring herself to wipe out the blood elves, for example), but claiming she was never very keen on wiping out all life via HER plague instead of ARTHAS' plague is just straight up wrong.


EDIT: Shit, I'll even buy that she wants to kill the living as a pre-emptive strike to ensure the Forsaken's survival. But she still set up a society specifically to create a new plague, and that new plague was to target "the living," not "specific living that I don't like."

[AutomaticZen]

Like Ingmar said, specifically setting up the RAP for plague purposes makes her just as guilty as being all "death to the living" as the rest of the Forsaken. I will buy that part of why Putress turned on her was because she's softened on that stance (I doubt she could bring herself to wipe out the blood elves, for example), but claiming she was never very keen on wiping out all life via HER plague instead of ARTHAS' plague is just straight up wrong.


EDIT: Shit, I'll even buy that she wants to kill the living as a pre-emptive strike to ensure the Forsaken's survival. But she still set up a society specifically to create a new plague, and that new plague was to target "the living," not "specific living that I don't like."

That's just love.  Being Undead is so fucking awesome that they want everyone to join in.

[Delmania]

I'm just not buying it.  I just can't see Sylvanas wanting to wipe out all life in retribution for what Arthas did to her.  She has a streak pf pride in her, which makes sense considering she was a ranger general before dying, and she has a strong sense of survival, giving that she had Garithos killed, which makes sense, because Garithos wasn't exactly a shining examples of the Alliance.  But if she wanted to wage a war against the living, she would have done much more than she did. 

[Delmania]

You know, Cataclysm would be an excellent time to add more undead models.  All of the background lore makes references to undead gnomes, dwarves, and elves as members of the Forsaken, and yet all we can choose are humans...

[Sjofn]

I'm just not buying it.  I just can't see Sylvanas wanting to wipe out all life in retribution for what Arthas did to her.  She has a streak pf pride in her, which makes sense considering she was a ranger general before dying, and she has a strong sense of survival, giving that she had Garithos killed, which makes sense, because Garithos wasn't exactly a shining examples of the Alliance.  But if she wanted to wage a war against the living, she would have done much more than she did. 

I don't think it's a "so THERE, Arthas!" thng, but dude, you are in some wacky denial. The only way "oh, she didn't REALLY want to kill all the living" makes sense is if she is an idiot that has no idea what is going on in her own damn city, in a society she formed and supported, whose only purpose was to research a new plague. What the hell is your version of that? "Hey guys, I have an idea! Why don't we make a Royal Apothecary Society! No no, don't tell me ANYTHING about what you would do as such a thing, I just like the name."

[Musashi]

Hey guise?  Sylvannas?  She's a fucking zombie now.  You herd rite?

On a more serious note.  I'm hoping against hope for a third faction.  That would make shit interesting.

[Mazakiel]

I'm just not buying it.  I just can't see Sylvanas wanting to wipe out all life in retribution for what Arthas did to her.  She has a streak pf pride in her, which makes sense considering she was a ranger general before dying, and she has a strong sense of survival, giving that she had Garithos killed, which makes sense, because Garithos wasn't exactly a shining examples of the Alliance.  But if she wanted to wage a war against the living, she would have done much more than she did. 

I don't think it's a "so THERE, Arthas!" thng, but dude, you are in some wacky denial. The only way "oh, she didn't REALLY want to kill all the living" makes sense is if she is an idiot that has no idea what is going on in her own damn city, in a society she formed and supported, whose only purpose was to research a new plague. What the hell is your version of that? "Hey guys, I have an idea! Why don't we make a Royal Apothecary Society! No no, don't tell me ANYTHING about what you would do as such a thing, I just like the name."

It could be more a case of, at the start of the game, she was all for wiping out all of the living, but that as time went on, and the blood elves were brought into the Horde and she reconnected with various aspects of her former life, she mellowed out and backed away from the "DEATH TO THE LIVING!" thing.  As an indication of this, see the Ghostlands quest where you find a pendant that had been given to her by her sister, and how that quest resolved.  Factions of the Forsaken, displeased at this new direction, were easily swayed by Varimithras into doing what eventually happened at the Wrath Gate. 

Overall though, looking for any sort of consistent plot or character behavior in WoW is a waste of time.  They'll shoehorn what they can into their latest direction, and handwave what's left away. 

[Jayce]

You know, Cataclysm would be an excellent time to add more undead models.  All of the background lore makes references to undead gnomes, dwarves, and elves as members of the Forsaken, and yet all we can choose are humans...

I think this would be a good feature.  I've always thought that about the Forsaken.  I bet we'll never get gnomes and dwarves, for "silhouette" reasons, but undead blood/high elf models would be cool.  I mean, the leader of the faction is one.

I've always assumed that the reason is that the vast majority of the Forsaken are former Lordaeron humans.  But clearly there's a big knot of undead elves that came out of the razing of Silvermoon.

[Sjofn]

I'm just not buying it.  I just can't see Sylvanas wanting to wipe out all life in retribution for what Arthas did to her.  She has a streak pf pride in her, which makes sense considering she was a ranger general before dying, and she has a strong sense of survival, giving that she had Garithos killed, which makes sense, because Garithos wasn't exactly a shining examples of the Alliance.  But if she wanted to wage a war against the living, she would have done much more than she did. 

I don't think it's a "so THERE, Arthas!" thng, but dude, you are in some wacky denial. The only way "oh, she didn't REALLY want to kill all the living" makes sense is if she is an idiot that has no idea what is going on in her own damn city, in a society she formed and supported, whose only purpose was to research a new plague. What the hell is your version of that? "Hey guys, I have an idea! Why don't we make a Royal Apothecary Society! No no, don't tell me ANYTHING about what you would do as such a thing, I just like the name."

It could be more a case of, at the start of the game, she was all for wiping out all of the living, but that as time went on, and the blood elves were brought into the Horde and she reconnected with various aspects of her former life, she mellowed out and backed away from the "DEATH TO THE LIVING!" thing.  As an indication of this, see the Ghostlands quest where you find a pendant that had been given to her by her sister, and how that quest resolved.  Factions of the Forsaken, displeased at this new direction, were easily swayed by Varimithras into doing what eventually happened at the Wrath Gate. 

Overall though, looking for any sort of consistent plot or character behavior in WoW is a waste of time.  They'll shoehorn what they can into their latest direction, and handwave what's left away. 

Well, that was my point. :P She may not be as gung ho about killing everyone anymore, but she had been. Delmania seems to think she never did.

[Delmania]

Well, that was my point. :P She may not be as gung ho about killing everyone anymore, but she had been. Delmania seems to think she never did.

And I still don't.   Let ye forget what Varithimas was, the Nazer-whatever are experts of deception.  Given that Sylvanas showed a rash of bad judgment in trusting him in the first place, I'd wager he could build on that enough to hide the true intents of the plague.

[Lakov_Sanite]

It looks like a lot of the story events we thought would occur in cataclysm will be happening in patch 3.3(thrall stepping aside, cairne dying, etc)  

Makes me wonder if garrosh will only be temp warchief...im holding out for a saurfang still.

[Kail]

I honestly don't see the big deal with Sylvanas.  The Forsaken are evil for trying to kill people with a plague, rather than good old fashioned swords and fel magic?  Or is it the whole shocking "the Forsaken hate everyone and are only allied with the Horde because otherwise they'll get wiped out" thing which is explained to the player in the intro flyby?

[LK]

Anything that shows Varimathras getting the upper hand completely devalues Sylvanas's build-up as a bad-ass Banshee Queen of the Damned. I hope there's a hand yet to be played by her but it's like her role as Forsaken Leader and an important character coming out of Warcraft III is being trivialized.

[Ingmar]

Well, that was my point. :P She may not be as gung ho about killing everyone anymore, but she had been. Delmania seems to think she never did.

And I still don't.   Let ye forget what Varithimas was, the Nazer-whatever are experts of deception.  Given that Sylvanas showed a rash of bad judgment in trusting him in the first place, I'd wager he could build on that enough to hide the true intents of the plague.

Its a fucking plague, every level 6 forsaken in the world poisons people with pumpkins to test it and you think she's somehow unaware?

You're not like secretly writing self-insertion Sylvanas slash fanfic or something that we're ruining with our trashing of her good name or something are you?

I honestly don't see the big deal with Sylvanas.  The Forsaken are evil for trying to kill people with a plague, rather than good old fashioned swords and fel magic?  Or is it the whole shocking "the Forsaken hate everyone and are only allied with the Horde because otherwise they'll get wiped out" thing which is explained to the player in the intro flyby?

Its not so much the 'killing people' as it is the 'killing all people everywhere'. There's always a certain amount of handwaving about the body counts in fantasy stuff like this, but there's still a difference between 'conquer them!' and 'genocide'.

[Delmania]

No, and I suppose I am wrong, since I do remember that quest.  I always thought the purpose of the plague was to kill the Scourge and humans, so that the Scarlet Crusade could be wiped out.  The whole "wipe out everything" attitude is portrayed by Forsaken NPC bu not Sylvanas herself.

[Lantyssa]

You're not like secretly writing self-insertion Sylvanas slash fanfic or something that we're ruining with our trashing of her good name or something are you?

She could seduce me in a second (in-game, I mean, really! ) and even I recognize she doesn't care about the living.  At best she wants to protect the blood elves.  Everyone else can hang become undead minions.

[Simond]

It looks like a lot of the story events we thought would occur in cataclysm will be happening in patch 3.3(thrall stepping aside, cairne dying, etc) 

Makes me wonder if garrosh will only be temp warchief...im holding out for a saurfang still.

Saurfang will die in Icecrown.

[Ingmar]

It looks like a lot of the story events we thought would occur in cataclysm will be happening in patch 3.3(thrall stepping aside, cairne dying, etc) 

Makes me wonder if garrosh will only be temp warchief...im holding out for a saurfang still.

Saurfang will die in Icecrown.

I think most of that stuff is just getting put in the patch files ahead of time, it isn't going to go live with 3.3. Thrall still has the <Warchief> title in the goblin starter area from the Blizzcon preview we got after all.

[AutomaticZen]

It looks like a lot of the story events we thought would occur in cataclysm will be happening in patch 3.3(thrall stepping aside, cairne dying, etc) 

Makes me wonder if garrosh will only be temp warchief...im holding out for a saurfang still.

Saurfang will die in Icecrown.

Sadly he will.  Probably Him and either Proudmoore or Tirion.

[WindupAtheist]

I feel the need to again point out the part of the recent Arthas novel, oft-cited in these loregeek discussions, where Sylvanas basically goes "OH BOY HERE COME SOME OF THE APOTHECARIES TO SHOW ME THE PLAGUE WE HAVE BEEN MAKING. NOW THEY ARE TESTING IT ON SOME PLEADING HUMAN AND A FORSAKEN WHO THEY SAY IS A CRIMINAL. I BET HE IS INNOCENT, BUT I DON'T CARE. OH LOOK THEY ARE BOTH DYING HORRIBLY. GOOD JOB GUYS. WITH THIS PLAGUE I CAN KILL THE HUMANS!"

[Sjofn]

I'm pretty sure Tirion is going to eat it in Icecrown. His story is over after Icecrown anyway, basically, it's as good a time as any to kill off Super Farmer.

[Delmania]

I feel the need to again point out the part of the recent Arthas novel, oft-cited in these loregeek discussions, where Sylvanas basically goes "OH BOY HERE COME SOME OF THE APOTHECARIES TO SHOW ME THE PLAGUE WE HAVE BEEN MAKING. NOW THEY ARE TESTING IT ON SOME PLEADING HUMAN AND A FORSAKEN WHO THEY SAY IS A CRIMINAL. I BET HE IS INNOCENT, BUT I DON'T CARE. OH LOOK THEY ARE BOTH DYING HORRIBLY. GOOD JOB GUYS. WITH THIS PLAGUE I CAN KILL THE HUMANS!"

[citation needed]

[Fordel]

I'm pretty sure Tirion is going to eat it in Icecrown. His story is over after Icecrown anyway, basically, it's as good a time as any to kill off Super Farmer.

Tirion will be locked in eternal combat with the spirit of the Lich King, to forever safeguard the Frostmourne and the evils within!

[Musashi]

I feel the need to again point out the part of the recent Arthas novel, oft-cited in these loregeek discussions, where Sylvanas* basically goes "OH BOY HERE COME SOME OF THE APOTHECARIES TO SHOW ME THE PLAGUE WE HAVE BEEN MAKING. NOW THEY ARE TESTING IT ON SOME PLEADING HUMAN AND A FORSAKEN WHO THEY SAY IS A CRIMINAL. I BET HE IS INNOCENT, BUT I DON'T CARE. OH LOOK THEY ARE BOTH DYING HORRIBLY. GOOD JOB GUYS. WITH THIS PLAGUE I CAN KILL THE HUMANS!"

[citation needed]

*A Zombie

Happy now?

[Kail]

Sylvanas basically goes "OH BOY HERE COME SOME OF THE APOTHECARIES TO SHOW ME THE PLAGUE WE HAVE BEEN MAKING. NOW THEY ARE TESTING IT ON SOME PLEADING HUMAN AND A FORSAKEN WHO THEY SAY IS A CRIMINAL. I BET HE IS INNOCENT, BUT I DON'T CARE. OH LOOK THEY ARE BOTH DYING HORRIBLY. GOOD JOB GUYS. WITH THIS PLAGUE I CAN KILL THE HUMANS!"

Wait, she KILLED SOMEONE?!?!  Horrific!  Made an actual person bleed their own blood?!  Holy shit!  I bet the Alliance are going to write some VERY NASTY letters to her in retaliation!

[WindupAtheist]

[citation needed]

Because maybe I'm making it up, right? I mean, maybe I haven't done this before. Fuck it, I'll just link you to the last time I posted this, where I make reference to the time before that. It has quotes, a WoW Insider reference, and a link to a preview of said novel. Yes, she was in on the whole thing. Yes, she wants to wipe out "the humans" with her plague at the very least.

Wait, she KILLED SOMEONE?!?!  Horrific!  Made an actual person bleed their own blood?!  Holy shit!  I bet the Alliance are going to write some VERY NASTY letters to her in retaliation!

I'm sure if they did, the soppy cunt Horde fanboys would cry to kingdom come about how it proves Varian Wrynn is an evil warmonger who hates the Horde because he's racist and not because of their litany of atrocities.

[Lakov_Sanite]

[citation needed]

Because maybe I'm making it up, right? I mean, maybe I haven't done this before. Fuck it, I'll just link you to the last time I posted this, where I make reference to the time before that. It has quotes, a WoW Insider reference, and a link to a preview of said novel. Yes, she was in on the whole thing. Yes, she wants to wipe out "the humans" with her plague at the very least.

Wait, she KILLED SOMEONE?!?!  Horrific!  Made an actual person bleed their own blood?!  Holy shit!  I bet the Alliance are going to write some VERY NASTY letters to her in retaliation!

I'm sure if they did, the soppy cunt Horde fanboys would cry to kingdom come about how it proves Varian Wrynn is an evil warmonger who hates the Horde because he's racist and not because of their litany of atrocities.

You miss the part where none of the forsaken players give a fuck that they're evil. We're pretty much ok with that.


As to saurfang though I'm not sure he'll die, tirion however is a given...and he can rot for all those fucking plaguelands quests.

[WindupAtheist]

My hunch: The "canon" outcome of the airship battle is going to be that they crash into each other and blow up. Saurfang dies (without his forum fans having to see anyone beat him up) and that clears the way for Garrosh to take over and kick puppies. Muradin dies too, but nobody gives a shit because he already died in WC3, and half of everybody didn't even realize Vegeta had wished him back alive with the dragonballs or what the fuck ever in WOTLK.

As for what Forsaken players think, clearly none of them mind being painted as evil except for all the ones who post. See Delmania and the "Maybe Sylvanas knows less about the RAS than any level 10 who clicks all the exclamation marks in Undercity" argument, and Simond's occasional routine where he cries about the evil racist Alliance turning on the poor innocent Forsaken and then stops posting on the topic for a week when I ask him when that was supposed to have happened.

[Sjofn]

You miss the part where none of the forsaken players give a fuck that they're evil. We're pretty much ok with that.


As to saurfang though I'm not sure he'll die, tirion however is a given...and he can rot for all those fucking plaguelands quests.

Bullshit, they're the worst fucking offenders in the "waaah, we're not evil, we're MISUNDERSTOOD" sweepstakes. It is AMAZING to me how many fucking Forsaken players apparently completely forget about ALL the times they're told to try out Toxin X on Helpless Victim Y.

I'm totally down with people saying the Alliance is no better, but it really drives me mad when people insist the Forsaken are totally cool dudes who really aren't that bad.

[WindupAtheist]

You hate Horde apologist fanboys AND self-important poopsocks. 

I wish any of us could've worked up to really giving a damn about that Cho'gall thing, you guys would be fun to play with.

[Musashi]

Zombies.  They're evil.

[Sjofn]

You hate Horde apologist fanboys AND self-important poopsocks. 

I wish any of us could've worked up to really giving a damn about that Cho'gall thing, you guys would be fun to play with.

Don't make the letter too long, I tend to make excuses for the orcs more than I probably should.  I can't help it, I love their females. :(

I keep MEANING to go back to Cho'gall but ... yeah. I've barely logged into Doomhammer lately, even, they're going to forget me!

[AutomaticZen]

As for what Forsaken players think, clearly none of them mind being painted as evil except for all the ones who post. See Delmania and the "Maybe Sylvanas knows less about the RAS than any level 10 who clicks all the exclamation marks in Undercity" argument, and Simond's occasional routine where he cries about the evil racist Alliance turning on the poor innocent Forsaken and then stops posting on the topic for a week when I ask him when that was supposed to have happened.

Indeed.  The Forsaken are only in the Horde because they needed a wall of bodies to shield them while they worked on wiping out the Scourge and the living.  Hell, I'm a Blood Elf, and I acknowledge that those fuckers are quite batshit insane.  You ever listen to the Sunreavers in Dalaran?  Sometimes they laugh for no reason.  Orc are nominally okay, with perhaps a unhealthy hate of trees, until Garrosh takes the car out for a spin.  Trolls are constantly shit on, and Tauren are so good that they're practically the most boring race in WoW.

That said, humans are dicks with King Fight McStab at the front of the line.  His journey mirrors Thrall's, but he ended up at the complete opposite conclusion.  Gnomes are like the Forsaken without malice, they'll end up taking all you Allies down by doing something stupid.  The worst you can say abut the Dwarves is they're drunk.  The Night Elves are led by the stupid, with Teldrassil being right up there with stupid plans.  And the Draenei?  Fuck them.  They're like the Tauren except this entire debacle is their fault.

[Delmania]

As for what Forsaken players think, clearly none of them mind being painted as evil except for all the ones who post. See Delmania and the "Maybe Sylvanas knows less about the RAS than any level 10 who clicks all the exclamation marks in Undercity" argument, and Simond's occasional routine where he cries about the evil racist Alliance turning on the poor innocent Forsaken and then stops posting on the topic for a week when I ask him when that was supposed to have happened.

Clearly I have issues with being evil.  I mean, the fact that my main is a walking corpse that summons demons and inflicts prolonged damage on people clearly screams innocent!  The issue is that Blizzard tends not to do pure good or pure evil.  Or at least, they did that in TBC. However, based on the lore, the purpose of the New Plague was to wipe out the Scourge and the humans (read Scarlet Crusade).  Then when you watch do the Battle for the Undercity, Sylvanas seems to not be evil in the slightest - calling Thrall warchief and what not.  I have no problems with being evil, it's one of the reason I made an undead warlock, but I wish Blilzz would stop this blending and put some hardlines up. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

In game I have yet to meet any forsaken players with allusions to being in any way good. Now of course many of them that roleplay will say 'their' character isn't all that bad, which is alright to a point but none seem to think it's all misunderstood angst.

People who post on any wow forums tend to be about 5% if the population at best so trying to form your opinions of alliance or horde based on what you read here or on official forums is going to lead to a lot of confusion. For instance not every alliance player is raging forum troll with an inferiority complex but WUA leads us to believe otherwise.