Cataclysm

[Sheepherder]

Yeah, I can get liking Karazhan, but it was pretty fucking out there.

Tempest Keep was also pretty fucking awesome if you had a fetish for extra large elven women.

[Tannhauser]

Re-rail:  Today I formed a group and we completed UK and Nexus.  I got four drops and along with my blue quest rewards I gained like seven blues total! 

The reason I bring this up?  I'm just now imagining the old world revamped based on what they've learned from WoTLK.  Holee crap.

[Malakili]

Re-rail:  Today I formed a group and we completed UK and Nexus.  I got four drops and along with my blue quest rewards I gained like seven blues total! 

The reason I bring this up?  I'm just now imagining the old world revamped based on what they've learned from WoTLK.  Holee crap.

Even though I know the experience will be a ton better, its still going to be bittersweet when I see them take the old dungeons and make them into 20 minute loot factories.

[Sjofn]

They're not gonna do that. They already did their big Old Dungeon Revamp (all the bosses drop blues now and don't stretch over 458784 levels like they used to). Some of the old dungeons are still pretty long, and they might reitemize again, but redesign all the old dungeons? I really, really doubt that.

[Sheepherder]

...take the old dungeons and make them into 20 minute loot factories.

You're going to need to take me step-by-step through this process, because in my inebriated state (seriously: I can barely walk straight) I can't see 20 minute loot factories as anything but a good thing.  Because if the players return after they've got their loots it's a strong indication that you did, in fact, do an excellent job with the pacing, the architecture, and the general feel.  If not, you've failed, and if you did a passable job of modernization chances are the source you had to work with wasn't too great either.

Really, trivialization of the loot is the least of your worries, simply because the loot itself should have no inherent  connection to the instance except perhaps in looks.  At the top of the list of things you should be worried about I'd put rye whiskey, which is fucking tasty straight and makes a damn good mixer.

PS: If you see a news article about someone from some random boonies area in Ontario who succumbed to alcohol poisoning that's me. /wave

[Ingmar]

I expect if they were going to fully redesign all the old world dungeons, that would have been part of the big reveal. Instead they very specifically said ONLY Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep were getting the heroic treatment, and also went on a bit about how the new Blackrock dungeon was done INSTEAD of re-doing BRS and BRD. They're not going to fully redo the dungeons. I expect them to redo the quests associated with them, though.

[Fordel]

Another Report from the Desk of "Why the Fuck are you still awake?" news! :

http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2009/08/world-of-warcraft-cataclysm/


Some Re-hashing, a few bits of new info.

Camp Tarujo burns!

[Merusk]

Things we would do is to go back and look at quests that say, “Bring me 20 of this item.” These days, we might want to cut that to 10. And maybe we’ll up the spawn rate on the thing you’re looking for. That’s the kind of stuff that we go back and do, and those are things we can do really quickly. So in a zone like that, we can burn through it really quick. But in something like the Barrens, where it’s split in half, it’s regrown, there are huge cracks in it, and Camp Taurajo is burned down and attacked by the Alliance — in that case, you are talking about an entire revamp. And the zones that are big like that, that we think every player will flow through, those are the zones we are going to spend that time on.

Halle-fucking-leuja.

They also confirm certain old-world achieves will go away.  They don't mention which ones, but if you've got old world ones you need to do, get 'em done now.

[Lantyssa]

We'll have to do a big "let's raid all the Old World dungeons" event.  What else is specifically Old World?

[Merusk]

The old raids.  With Nef 2.0 and Rag 2.0 in Cat I'd almost bet that MC and BWL will be going away.   AQ is fairly useless right now, too.. so they might remove it.   

The goblin stuff doesn't have related achieves other than the Exalted rep ones, but the Bloodsail Admiral rep does.  We've yet to hear about what happens to the Everlook, BB and Gadgetzan reps.

The Loremaster achieves I don't believe they'd remove, but will just lower the # of quests required so it's possible.  From the way they've been talking they're taking this opportunity to redo a lot of the lowbie stuff as well, so we might see some old quest lines disappear.

I don't think there were achievs associated with the Pally and Lock mount quests, but if there are those would go away, since I'm sure we'll be losing the ability to do them. 

[Nevermore]

The goblin stuff doesn't have related achieves other than the Exalted rep ones, but the Bloodsail Admiral rep does.  We've yet to hear about what happens to the Everlook, BB and Gadgetzan reps.

I doubt they'll do anything with the Steamwheedle Goblins since it's likely the Horde Goblins are a different faction.

[Musashi]

Speaking as somewhat of an altaholic, adding an achievement/title for the Bloodsail stuff was totally retarded.  You can hardly ever even get the quests you need in Booty Bay these days, as all the Goblins are permanently dead.  Poor guys.

[Kail]

I don't think there were achievs associated with the Pally and Lock mount quests

There are.

I do wonder how they'll handle legacy stuff in the old world.  My 80 paladin still has Hecular's Rod, waiting for the perfect moment to attack Southshore, and my Rogue and Warlock are both sitting on their level 50 class quest for ST until they can solo it.  I've got a ton of characters who are scattered around the world in mid-chain somewhere.  I am kind of curious how much of this stuff is going to be wiped.  I suspect the current Loremaster quests will be moved to Feats of Strength, since A) they weren't tracked on a per-zone basis the way they are in all the new content, and B) it would make the difficulty of achieving them highly variable between characters who were started before or after the expansion.

[Slyfeind]

Interesting stuff.

Wired.com: For people who are nostalgic for the old world before Cataclysm, is there going to be some way to revisit Azeroth as it was before?

Stockton: I think that’s what Caverns of Time is for.

This sounds neat. Glad they're planning this. I wonder how they'll handle "killing Arthas."

Level up a new night elf through (original old world areas) Teldrassil and Darkshore… It doesn’t feel as good as going to (Wrath of the Lich King’s) Howling Fjord, brand new at level 70. It just doesn’t feel that same way to us, and I think we all want to bring it up to that level.

Meh. I hate when people try to bring things to the "same level." Then the whole thing is the same intensity. It's like listening to a monotone for five minutes.

You have...the re-rollers who keep re-starting, but never get past 35. They have eight characters and they are all between 30 and 40. We want to get that player to 80.

This is interesting, if a bit confusing. I wonder why this is a goal for them.

[Nonentity]

I'm sad that Camp Tacobell is burning :(

[Sjofn]

The fact a player peters out at 35 consistantly tells them something is messed up at 35 and they should look at what and why that is. And if it's a big enough chunk of players for them to even notice this, it's a big enough chunk of players to investegate.

Also, I think they're talking about the same level of quality, not necessarily difficulty or whatever. Why would making sure everything is as good as <whatever> be a bad thing?

[Hawkbit]

On the topic of old dungeons going dodo, if you look at Blizzcon maps for old world stuff, you can see that Silithus is still there, but the area where AQ is is now covered in yellow.  I took the yellow to mean 'will be covered in water in Cataclysm'.  I might be wrong though.

[Ratman_tf]

This is interesting, if a bit confusing. I wonder why this is a goal for them.

If you're not raiding, you're not playing WoW. *whipcrack* Start having fun, moron!

[Ratman_tf]

The fact a player peters out at 35 consistantly tells them something is messed up at 35 and they should look at what and why that is. And if it's a big enough chunk of players for them to even notice this, it's a big enough chunk of players to investegate.

Also, I think they're talking about the same level of quality, not necessarily difficulty or whatever. Why would making sure everything is as good as <whatever> be a bad thing?

I'd say about half my guild are alt-oholics. (Total guess there) Point is, there's a lot of them. If I'm bored of a class, I usually drop out in the late teens-early 20's. I think anyone who makes it to 30-40 is re-rolling because that's generally when they've mastered the class and go "Oh, I could make a Tauren Hunter! Yay!" Alt-oholics are gonna re-roll no matter what Blizz does. They can just change the point where they decide to swtich characters.
In other words, I don't think it's a problem with the game. It's just where the gameplay shakes out the altitus.

[Simond]

On the topic of old dungeons going dodo, if you look at Blizzcon maps for old world stuff, you can see that Silithus is still there, but the area where AQ is is now covered in yellow.  I took the yellow to mean 'will be covered in water in Cataclysm'.  I might be wrong though.

Apparently, in the (*sigh*) Warcraft comics, C'thun is back ('even death can die' and all that) and being served by Cho'gall - who is being mutated into some sort of ogre/Thing That Was Not Meant To Be hybrid.

So I'm fully expecting 4.1 or 4.2 to be Ahn'Qiraj redux.

[Lakov_Sanite]

The fact a player peters out at 35 consistantly tells them something is messed up at 35 and they should look at what and why that is. And if it's a big enough chunk of players for them to even notice this, it's a big enough chunk of players to investegate.

Also, I think they're talking about the same level of quality, not necessarily difficulty or whatever. Why would making sure everything is as good as <whatever> be a bad thing?

I'd say about half my guild are alt-oholics. (Total guess there) Point is, there's a lot of them. If I'm bored of a class, I usually drop out in the late teens-early 20's. I think anyone who makes it to 30-40 is re-rolling because that's generally when they've mastered the class and go "Oh, I could make a Tauren Hunter! Yay!" Alt-oholics are gonna re-roll no matter what Blizz does. They can just change the point where they decide to swtich characters.
In other words, I don't think it's a problem with the game. It's just where the gameplay shakes out the altitus.

I think that's the point, why should the gameplay wear on a person so much? They ought to have fun playing otherwise, what's the point? I know for a fact I'd love to have a few 80's just so i can play different aspects or, if i chose to raid on another toon instead.

[Sjofn]

The fact a player peters out at 35 consistantly tells them something is messed up at 35 and they should look at what and why that is. And if it's a big enough chunk of players for them to even notice this, it's a big enough chunk of players to investegate.

Also, I think they're talking about the same level of quality, not necessarily difficulty or whatever. Why would making sure everything is as good as <whatever> be a bad thing?

I'd say about half my guild are alt-oholics. (Total guess there) Point is, there's a lot of them. If I'm bored of a class, I usually drop out in the late teens-early 20's. I think anyone who makes it to 30-40 is re-rolling because that's generally when they've mastered the class and go "Oh, I could make a Tauren Hunter! Yay!" Alt-oholics are gonna re-roll no matter what Blizz does. They can just change the point where they decide to swtich characters.
In other words, I don't think it's a problem with the game. It's just where the gameplay shakes out the altitus.

I roll a lot of alts myself. You'd never hear me say rolling alts and a lot of 'em is a bad thing. I'm totallyy pissed we're not getting any new character slots in Cataclysm. But I still have made it to cap on several characters (I had 3 60's, then 5 70's, and currently have four 80's).

I suspect Blizzard thinks altaholics rerolling before getting a single character to cap all the time means there's probably an issue. Because it obviously held their attention long enough for 35, what happened that made them stop? I think it's less "rolling alts is bad" and more "people never ever making it to cap means something WE did is wrong."

[Jayce]

Because it obviously held their attention long enough for 35, what happened that made them stop?

Novelty.  Unless they make classes drop all their abilities and gain all new ones and also by the way gain a new look and possibly new faction, they'll never "fix" this issue.  Which btw I don't think is an issue if you couldn't tell.

Alt-aholics just like to level and like to learn all new ways to play.

[Sjofn]

In my experience, even the people who roll a gajillion alts always intend to one day hit the level cap with their various characters. They aren't just people distracted by shineys and go scampering off to investegate it, never to return. What y'all are saying is "they get bored!" Well sure, I know that. I am pretty sure Blizzard knows that. And Blizzard wants them to not get bored. Yes, there's a certain point where you just accept some people have zero attention span, but I sincerely doubt anyone things there aren't boring parts that a lot of people stall in and then go "screw it, I'll make a new character."

That was my problem in CoX. The grind would eventually get bad enough where even if I really LIKED the character, I'd say "screw it, I'll make a new character." I did it with Icewind Dale, too. I'd get my party to level three or so and wonder if Some Other Party would be better. And I've done it with WoW for sure. "Oh God, I'm in the 30's and I don't have a mount and the quests I have left are the annoying ones that make me run all over the world for no reason. Screw it, I'm gonna make another hunter."

I think all Blizzard wants to do is make sure they don't have anything in the game that's so annoying people would rather just roll alt #345234564236 (and again, is ANYONE arguing WoW doesn't have this?). I can't see this as a bad thing, this striving to make the game fun enough that even people that are EXTREMELY easily distracted want to get to cap at least once.

[Ratman_tf]

In my experience, even the people who roll a gajillion alts always intend to one day hit the level cap with their various characters. They aren't just people distracted by shineys and go scampering off to investegate it, never to return. What y'all are saying is "they get bored!" Well sure, I know that. I am pretty sure Blizzard knows that. And Blizzard wants them to not get bored. Yes, there's a certain point where you just accept some people have zero attention span, but I sincerely doubt anyone things there aren't boring parts that a lot of people stall in and then go "screw it, I'll make a new character."

Nah. What I'm saying is that there's a point where an alt-person will feel that they're done with their class and want to play with a different set of toys. On average, this seems to be 35. I don't even think it's boredom or a factor of 35ish content having some undefinded problem with it that causes players to lose interest. Note that they do not quit the game. They make a new character.

I could be completely wrong here, I'm not a big alt player, and this is only observation. But I think it's a matter of /time played and/or unlocking of abilities and those two happen to intersect at the 35 level range. I don't think it's a content issue, but a character progression issue.

I think all Blizzard wants to do is make sure they don't have anything in the game that's so annoying people would rather just roll alt #345234564236 (and again, is ANYONE arguing WoW doesn't have this?). I can't see this as a bad thing, this striving to make the game fun enough that even people that are EXTREMELY easily distracted want to get to cap at least once.

Sure. If Blizzard finds some cockblock at 35 and yanks it from the game, good jerb.

[Simond]

I doubt they'll do anything with the Steamwheedle Goblins since it's likely the Horde Goblins are a different faction.

Horde goblins are Bilgewater Cartel, iirc.

Camp Tarujo burns!

King Beefslab McFistgroin: "I shall clearly demonstrated that the Horde is evil and must be punished by picking on the closest thing this world has to genuine nice guys and razing one of their towns. This shall unequivocally show that it's all the orcs fault and not, for example, make the Tauren equate the Alliance with the centaur clans that used to do the exact same thing (which nearly drove the tauren to extinction) thereby cementing their bond with the rest of the Horde and giving Bairne Bloodhoof one final reason to give new Warchief Hellscream their full backing".

 

[Sjofn]

To be fair, the tauren kill the shit out of dwarves when they get a chance.

[Merusk]

They do?  Where'd you read that?

[Simond]

I think it's got something to do with the dwarves stomping up and excavating tauren burial grounds without so much as a by-your-leave then shooting anyone who comes to complain.

[WindupAtheist]

Here's my rich lore-derived justification: Fuck 'em, they're in the Horde ain't they?

[Simond]

Yep, and it's thinking like that which is going to lose Ashenvale and most of Gilneas for the Alliance. 
Someone needs to point out to Wrynn that the Horde only lost the second war because Gul'dan up and took about a third of the orcish clans on a wild goose chase. Preferably (for the Alliance, at least) before the Blightspreaders are lobbing barrels of bioweapon over the walls of Stormwind.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Yep, and it's thinking like that which is going to lose Ashenvale and most of Gilneas for the Alliance. 
Someone needs to point out to Wrynn that the Horde only lost the second war because Gul'dan up and took about a third of the orcish clans on a wild goose chase. Preferably (for the Alliance, at least) before the Blightspreaders are lobbing barrels of bioweapon over the walls of Stormwind.

Also, Southshore.

God, I hope hecular is there and was instrumental in southshore's downfall. Seriously, how awesome would that be?

[Fordel]

I doubt they'll do anything with the Steamwheedle Goblins since it's likely the Horde Goblins are a different faction.

Horde goblins are Bilgewater Cartel, iirc.

Camp Tarujo burns!

King Beefslab McFistgroin: "I shall clearly demonstrated that the Horde is evil and must be punished by picking on the closest thing this world has to genuine nice guys and razing one of their towns. This shall unequivocally show that it's all the orcs fault and not, for example, make the Tauren equate the Alliance with the centaur clans that used to do the exact same thing (which nearly drove the tauren to extinction) thereby cementing their bond with the rest of the Horde and giving Bairne Bloodhoof one final reason to give new Warchief Hellscream their full backing".

 

Grimtotems? 

[Sjofn]

They do?  Where'd you read that?

In my quest text where the tauren go, "Kill those damn dwarves, they're all DIGGING and shit."

While I understand the tauren being a little "wtf," I got the impression THEY were the ones that started shooting, because they said, "Hey dwarves, quit it." And the dwarves said, "Make us." NEVERMIND that's what the Titans put the earthen here to DO, and the dwarves are basically digging up THEIR OWN ANCIENT HISTORY, not the tauren's. The dwarves are clearly 100% bad in this scenario, rite?

(And to be clear, I fucking HATE Kingy McChin Dick, but I get tired of hearing how Pure and Noble the tauren are. Yeah, they're by far the nicest Horde race, and nicer than some of the Alliance races, but they're not pure as the driven snow either.)

[Khaldun]

I'm seeing something interesting with the guilds I track: a faster and faster cycle between "heavy" and "disengaged" with each expansion. After an expansion, folks play a lot, then suddenly a switch flips and they're doing something else (usually not a MMO, but sometimes). It's feeling after two as if the cycling is growing more frantic: heavier shorter play, quicker harder disengagement.

I think there's an opening for a developer who can figure out how to counterprogram. I also think this is a real signal to Blizzard that they need to not only get content up faster, but also that people are getting really really tired of the mid-expansion content extensions, the stalling tactics. I suspect actually that Blizz knows this--one of my suspicions is that Cataclysm is intended to remove a lot of the small kludges in the design that make content updates slower than they should be, and to test-bed a more rapid content flow for whatever the next Blizz MMO is going to be.