Predictions: 1m+ players 3 days out; how about in January 2013?

[DraconianOne]

SWTOR right now doesn't offer any better gameplay than many free to play games that are available so why pay a monthly fee?

Such as? And don't you dare say LOTRO.

[Kageru]

Judging by some of the complaints on the forums it looks like the concept of "story as the 4th MMO pillar" can pretty much be laid to rest. It sucked a huge amount of resources into the leveling process which helps make the emptyness at the end of the ride all the more jarring. That money would have been much better spent on re-usable game mechanics than one-off and only moderately interactive frills.

~600k I'd say. Even if it's an average star wars game it's still a star wars game and many won't give up easy. Less than that if they panic and gut the studio / rewrite the game on the fly.

[Mrbloodworth]

Most of the conversation framework is reusable. From the cinematic cameras, to even many of the voice audio responses, all of the animations ( Sans mouth movement and facial expressions, that's audio triggered ) are the emotes every player model has access to. If you were thinking every cut scene is hand animated sequences, you are wrong, and it just shows how well they have pulled off the illusion with careful thought into re-usability of all the parts. None of it is one off. A good deal of this feedback here is simply exaggeration.

[MournelitheCalix]

I am going to guess 700k based on the fact that the 50 game is Terrible with nothing to look forward to but forced grouping.  I am hopeful that the game becomes a bit more accommodating to the solo and small group experience.

[Nebu]

I am going to guess 700k based on the fact that the 50 game is Terrible with nothing to look forward to but forced grouping.  I am hopeful that the game becomes a bit more accommodating to the solo and small group experience.

Even the group content is weak.  The Rift dungeons were both more interesting and more entertaining as far as group content goes.  As stated by many people already, SWTOR is a great single player game from 1-50.  Sadly it's not very good as an MMO, if we can even call it that.  

If this game maintains more than 400k subs after 6 months it will be due to either some significant content additions or the Star Wars franchise.  I'm bored with the endgame already and the game has been out barely a month.

[Paelos]

What I notice is that there are no real reasons to run dungeons unless you really want to while you are leveling. There's a disturbing lack of interactivity in this game even in guild chats. Since there's so many voice overs, people don't talk to each other. Part of that is the leveling process, and part of that is that the game wants to be solo.

Now, at 50 I don't have a lot of experience, but I don't mind running dungeons and doing dailies. I liked that stuff. I could give a crap less about WoW now and have no plans to return. I'll play this for 3 months and see what the horizon looks like.

[Rasix]

Now, at 50 I don't have a lot of experience, but I don't mind running dungeons and doing dailies. I liked that stuff. I could give a crap less about WoW now and have no plans to return. I'll play this for 3 months and see what the horizon looks like.

I'm in the same boat.  Once I'm done with SWTOR, I'm gone from the MMO scene until something new and shiny comes out.  WoW still doesn't even seem appealing at all.

I figure I'm still a month or two out from even hitting 50.  Hooray for limited play time and LoL.

But my guess at this point is that they're going to underperform with this title.  I'm not very certain, however, and could be 100% wrong easily.  Just seems that the MMO stuff isn't that well done, which isn't shocking since it came from a bunch of devs that were bad at this MMO stuff to begin with.  They've got some new and interesting (to me) takes on some of the standard MMO systems, and I love the single player experience.  I'm guess I'm not the market they want, because I won't be sticking around for social/group stuff.  I'm a strictly a content person, and when well dries out for me, I'm done.

[Fabricated]

I honestly kinda liked running with groups in quests that had a lot of RP+Dark/Light side stuff going on since it was cool seeing the other character's responses. If they would've added the ability to interject with some RP tension in response to dark/light side choices (like how companions can complain/complement what you do) for social points that would've been really cool.

[amiable]

It's a very fun game to play 2 player, my wife and I have leveled together exclusively.  I am annoyed that some player quests can be completed together and some cannot.  The game bugs really start coming out of the wordwork post level 25 though.  Some of the design decisions leave me really scratching my head (after spending the time to put together an orange outfit I like I am going to have to scrap it entirely when I get epic gear because they don't ant me removing the mods...).  I think a lot of folk are going to leave this game pretty quickly if they don't fix the combat responsiveness issues.

[Sky]

It's a very fun game to play 2 player, my wife and I have leveled together exclusively.  I am annoyed that some player quests can be completed together and some cannot.  The game bugs really start coming out of the wordwork post level 25 though.  Some of the design decisions leave me really scratching my head (after spending the time to put together an orange outfit I like I am going to have to scrap it entirely when I get epic gear because they don't ant me removing the mods...).  I think a lot of folk are going to leave this game pretty quickly if they don't fix the combat responsiveness issues.

What about pulling mods? The system was  still in flux at launch, I posted a dev tracker post with some changes in the pipe.

What are the combat responsiveness issues? I've heard this mentioned a few times and I'm not sure what people are talking about. Maybe I shouldn't ask, I'm enjoying the game and should just leave it at that.

[Fabricated]

It's a very fun game to play 2 player, my wife and I have leveled together exclusively.  I am annoyed that some player quests can be completed together and some cannot.  The game bugs really start coming out of the wordwork post level 25 though.  Some of the design decisions leave me really scratching my head (after spending the time to put together an orange outfit I like I am going to have to scrap it entirely when I get epic gear because they don't ant me removing the mods...).  I think a lot of folk are going to leave this game pretty quickly if they don't fix the combat responsiveness issues.

I think all class quests can be completed together, if by together you mean that your groupmates can follow you into the areas. I think some may put you into "spectator" mode on moral choices but if you go into the options you can let anyone into your story areas. I dunno about letting people onto your ship though, I've never tried that.

What about pulling mods? The system was  still in flux at launch, I posted a dev tracker post with some changes in the pipe.

What are the combat responsiveness issues? I've heard this mentioned a few times and I'm not sure what people are talking about. Maybe I shouldn't ask, I'm enjoying the game and should just leave it at that.

Epics USED to be all mods like Orange equipment, so you could win an epic raid item, strip out all the mods and then stuff them into your favorite Orange item to give it the same stats while keeping your look.

To "encourage" people to "enjoy" all the stuff the artists have made (and some balance reasons I can't recall), they made it so raid epics have mod slots, but not ALL of them. Some of the superior stats are baked into the item, so even if you remove the mods that ARE in them you can't pimp an old Orange item up to raid epic power.

The response lag I haven't noticed as much as other people, but sometimes channeled abilities take fucking forever to start ticking. Not in lag time, but actual game time. Like, my mortar volley on my trooper is channeled...but when I use it sometimes I'll start channelling....and then literally like 2 seconds into it I'll actually start shooting. Meanwhile I can still be interrupted/stunned/the mobs can run off and kill people. I think that's what people are talking about.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think all class quests can be completed together, if by together you mean that your groupmates can follow you into the areas. I think some may put you into "spectator" mode on moral choices but if you go into the options you can let anyone into your story areas. I dunno about letting people onto your ship though, I've never tried that.

Class Story areas: group mates can go in, but go into spectator mode for conversations. Can help combat.

Class Story areas and 2 of the same class in a group: There is an option to allow a group member of the same CLASS to also enter, they can not by default. ( IE: Cant have two Operatives, unless allowed ) Only the owner (First in) will progress story however.

Ships: Your party members can go on your ship, and can ride with you to another destination. The Trick is, you have to let them on the ship first. Once you enter your ship, it takes off. Anyone not on the ship will be punted out of the hanger.

All story lines, for all classes, at equal stages, will be in the same location/area. IE: All members on "Planet" + "step 5" will all be going to the "abandoned mine",  just different doors.

[Merusk]

It's a very fun game to play 2 player, my wife and I have leveled together exclusively.  I am annoyed that some player quests can be completed together and some cannot.  The game bugs really start coming out of the wordwork post level 25 though.  Some of the design decisions leave me really scratching my head (after spending the time to put together an orange outfit I like I am going to have to scrap it entirely when I get epic gear because they don't ant me removing the mods...).  I think a lot of folk are going to leave this game pretty quickly if they don't fix the combat responsiveness issues.

What about pulling mods? The system was  still in flux at launch, I posted a dev tracker post with some changes in the pipe.

What are the combat responsiveness issues? I've heard this mentioned a few times and I'm not sure what people are talking about. Maybe I shouldn't ask, I'm enjoying the game and should just leave it at that.

Yeha, if you're enjoying it have fun with it, I know I am.

I think the reason you and I still are, Sky, is we haven't maxed out our first character yet.  We're taking it slow and haven't gone into overload on the endgame yet.  Hitting the level cap has always maximized issues for me because there was nothing else to do but examine them.

I have some criticisms of the game, but none of them are serious issues for me yet.  If they go on long enough, they will be.  It's no robot jesus but I'm also in a different place in my life then I was when last turned into a frothing fanboy by WoW.  

As for the specific gripe about combat response, I think they're talking about the times you'll hit a button and nothing will fire.  And - as has been the (legitimate) gripe for almost every game since WoW - the fact that abilities finish out their animations before firing the next one.

Your animations should match the fire-time of your abilities.  Period.  Rift got this right but between it and WoW I can't think of one that did.  They all had wind-ups or finishes that delayed abilities in some manner.

Ships: Your party members can go on your ship, and can ride with you to another destination. The Trick is, you have to let them on the ship first. Once you enter your ship, it takes off. Anyone not on the ship will be punted out of the hanger.

Easiest way of explaining this to people: Ships work like mage portals in WoW did.  Mage goes through, portal disappears.

[amiable]

I think all class quests can be completed together, if by together you mean that your groupmates can follow you into the areas. I think some may put you into "spectator" mode on moral choices but if you go into the options you can let anyone into your story areas. I dunno about letting people onto your ship though, I've never tried that.

Class Story areas: group mates can go in, but go into spectator mode for conversations. Can help combat.

Class Story areas and 2 of the same class in a group: There is an option to allow a group member of the same CLASS to also enter, they can not by default. ( IE: Cant have two Operatives, unless allowed ) Only the owner (First in) will progress story however.

Ships: Your party members can go on your ship, and can ride with you to another destination. The Trick is, you have to let them on the ship first. Once you enter your ship, it takes off. Anyone not on the ship will be punted out of the hanger.

All story lines, for all classes, at equal stages, will be in the same location/area. IE: All members on "Planet" + "step 5" will all be going to the "abandoned mine",  just different doors.

However there are some class story cutscenes your partner does not get to see.  Almost all the holocall cutscenes aren't scene by your companion player.  In certain planets locations are ONLY accessible to a certain class.  Eg. Nar Shadda Operative quest requires going to a taxi point only open to IA's. 

[Ingmar]

For people complaining about the mods at endgame, they posted today that they will be flipping purples back to having all their mods removable.

[01101010]

For people complaining about the mods at endgame, they posted today that they will be flipping purples back to having all their mods removable.

Good thing I never get purples to drop. 

[ajax34i]

What are the combat responsiveness issues? I've heard this mentioned a few times and I'm not sure what people are talking about. Maybe I shouldn't ask, I'm enjoying the game and should just leave it at that.

Animations don't match the abilities, basically. 

As an example, Jedi Knights have an AoE instant stun ability called Force Sweep.  The ability description says it's instant.  You activate it, and your toon crouches down, then jumps into the air, then slams back into the ground and creates a wave that stuns everyone around you.  It takes 2 seconds (+lag) for things to get stunned, from the moment you push the button.  If you're in PVP, you push your stun button, and your enemy sees you preparing to jump up, and they push their stun button, and they stun you and interrupt your instacast ability that you had activated before they did.

Another example is an ability that has a 1.5 second cast, but a 3 second animation.  You activate it, you begin twirling and shit, after 1.5 seconds your global cooldown shows your toolbar is ready, your 15 other abilities are ready to go, but if you push any button nothing will happen because you're still twirling around for another 1.5 seconds.

[Sjofn]

Consular knockback has a similar issue to what you describe for the JK stun. It's ... sort of CoX-y in a bad way, there.

[Ghambit]

With IA instant shots, if you're not 'weapon-ready' you have to wait to aim the ginormous sniper-rifle before it'll pop.  Like, if you invested a few points to insta-snipe after cover pulse (aoe knockback), the whole routine takes about as long as if you'd sniped to begin with, rendering the ability more situational really.  Same deal when you shiv someone and then try a takedown shot... gotta wait.

Tbh I kinda like it this way as it makes everything look a lot better than if I'm, for instance, shooting blaster shots at someone while stabbing them in the chest. 

[Riggswolfe]

I'm not quite ready to make predictions about the game's longevity and population yet. I'm still enjoying my max level character, though I use him for crafting and helping guildies and looking for cool drops from quests and stuff. I think my best guess would be more players than LOTRO had a year or so ago (about 250k if memory serves) but less than WOW by a long shot. I think it'll probably be the #2 North American game.

That said, if it does fail I think I'm done with MMOs. I can never again tolerate a quest that just pops up some stuff for me to read. Fuck that. I'm spoiled now.

One thing I wonder if you guys are underestimating is character investment. I feel really attached to my character unlike most MMOs. It's very much like I get attached to my Commander Shepard in Mass Effect. Sure, I know that all other players have the same experience but it still feels like my story for my character. That alone may compel me to stick around and be patient.

[Nonentity]

I dunno - the way I feel about the game, if all my friends were to simultaneously stop playing, I would follow suit and feel none the worse for doing it. It's not a bad game, per se, but it's also not the next big thing.

It's serviceable as far as getting all my friends together in one game so far, but it could just be any other game as far as I concerned. At the end of the day, being completely voiced does zero for me, and I have no additional investment in my character.

I've seen all the level 50 content the game has to offer at this point. My playtime has already dropped dramatically, and I really don't have the stamina to focus on leveling another character at this point.

[Nebu]

I think that MMO's have generated a playerbase so focused on endgame content, that the lack of it in SWTOR will have a negative impact in the long term.  I really want to love this game, but my guild is already growing weary of the lack of things to do besides reroll.  I enjoy alts, so it's not a problem... but I fear I may be doing it alone when the 3 month point hits.

[Mrbloodworth]

Yep.

Its all about leveling, and loot, and peen.

Well, for anyone posting on a game forum about MMO's that is. Star wars fans don't give a shit. I'm quite sure many are happy playing the game.

[Draegan]

I'm calling space combat pvp warzones by next Christmas, instant win there.

[01101010]

I'm calling space combat pvp warzones by next Christmas, instant win there.

Dibs on RAMMING SPEED!

[Sky]

As an example, Jedi Knights have an AoE instant stun ability called Force Sweep.  The ability description says it's instant.  You activate it, and your toon crouches down, then jumps into the air, then slams back into the ground and creates a wave that stuns everyone around you. 

Heh. I thought that was a cool ability.

There's a real disconnect between the mmo fans and the casual fans. I hope they don't go to far in trying to please you guys, because honestly none of you are going to be playing in three months even if they fix every thing you perceive as a problem.

[Ingmar]

I'm not seeing anything that will stop me from sticking around yet. I haven't gotten to do much level 50 stuff, Slap doesn't have any level 50 dpsers yet. 

[01101010]

I'm not seeing anything that will stop me from sticking around yet. I haven't gotten to do much level 50 stuff, Slap doesn't have any level 50 dpsers yet. 

:(

[Sjofn]

I'm not seeing anything that will stop me from sticking around yet. I haven't gotten to do much level 50 stuff, Slap doesn't have any level 50 dpsers yet. 

I'm working on it. Because I'm broken. I hit level 34! 


You'll have to suck it up and deal with the fact it's one of my MAN characters, though. 

[Ingmar]

I'm not seeing anything that will stop me from sticking around yet. I haven't gotten to do much level 50 stuff, Slap doesn't have any level 50 dpsers yet. 

:(

Did you finish? I wasn't on much last night due to Blood Bowl obligations.

[Sjofn]

He didn't, he's only level 46. The scrub. 


I also thought Hob was a seer! An evil, evil seer.

[tmp]

As an example, Jedi Knights have an AoE instant stun ability called Force Sweep.  The ability description says it's instant.  You activate it, and your toon crouches down, then jumps into the air, then slams back into the ground and creates a wave that stuns everyone around you.  

Heh. I thought that was a cool ability.

There's a real disconnect between the mmo fans and the casual fans. I hope they don't go to far in trying to please you guys, because honestly none of you are going to be playing in three months even if they fix every thing you perceive as a problem.

It's a nice ability to look at, and can be quite useful. But the problem becomes more obvious when you buy into the idea it's "instant" and try to work it into your skill set as a ghetto interrupt/stun for these "i'm about to fuck your day" progress bar skills on the mobs. The animation is simply too long for it. And since it's magic force it's not like it couldn't have the stun/knockback component happen quite earlier after you press the key and still look neat -- like doing it through simple sort of 'slam fist into ground' animation, or some dramatic hand waving, or whatever.

[Merusk]

Exactly.. It's not a complaint about the ability, it's usefulness or its animation.  It's a complaint about the disconnect between it's actual implementation and the way it's advertised.

Say it has a 1.3s cast time, stick a cast bar on it that runs down during the leap animation and problem solved.   Or make the effect happen at button-press THEN animate during the GCD.   "Instant" means "right now" not "Right after your previous animation and the current one."

Small things that turn into annoyances over time.  It's not even a casual gamer vs MMO player vs hardcore player thing.  You'd be just as pissed at the same kind of disconnect in Skyrim.. or think about how Mario paused before jumping in SMB2. "no, fucker I pressed that button!"

[ajax34i]

I like Force Sweep and use it a lot.  It's talent-improved to do extra damage and cost less.  It's not game-breaking in PvE, which is what I'm interested in.

However, if we are to accept animation delays as intended or part of the game, then I have two issues:

1.  How is my tank character balanced vs. the other 2 tanks?  Their stuns are actually instant, I imagine.

2.  Where is the database or website that lists all the animation durations, so I can make an informed decision about which class to pick at character creation?  Animations aren't tracked anywhere, all you see is a list of spells and their durations, and Force Sweep is listed as instant.

I suppose I'll follow the crowd.  Play Inquisitor then quit.  What I'm playing is obviously unpopular for a reason.

[Simond]

You should be able to work out all the timing from the combat lo....oh.