So what's Mass Market Again? Conan hits 1M (shipped).

[Venkman]

There's no reason PvE and PvP should be relegated to separate games. Neither WoW nor AoC show PvP as the "dominant" playstyle. However, they both do show that well executed PvP can be a way to extend the playerbase, either by giving your attracted players something else to do, or getting new players.

Neither offers PvP as an exclusive out-of-box experience though. It's just alongside the PvE game.

This is the part that the genre needed to wait to see happen (again). We spent years just waiting for games to a) launch at all; and, b) be playable at all. Now we're over that hump. There's some pretty established rules we won't see much divergence from for awhile, like XP and levels and character abilities unlocked along the way. Now that these work, experimentation on new stuff, new competitive advantages can emerge.

Even games mostly about PvP still will have ways to protect the non-PvPers. Eve is a good model here as a total system, even if the individual features would differ for a fantasy DIKU (like XP instead of pre-loaded skills, avatar instead of ship, walkable terrain instead of a bunch of empty space you warp through, etc).

[Bzalthek]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

That was a quick edit.  I guess the "Carebear Motherfuckers" aren't going extinct quite yet.

I look at PVP as it existed in UO, and I look at PVP as it exists in WoW, and it doesn't strike me as the PVE that is on its way out the door.  AoC and upcoming WAR may change this, but making a prediction just now would be premature.  We don't know if the games will survive, and we don't know how much the PVP will be watered down in order to survive.

That being said, PVP is here to stay.  Not because there is any significant market for PVPers, but because it's the smart move.  "Balance" issues not withstanding, PVP is just easier to cater to, because players are doing most of the work.  It's also dangerous, because as more and more games come into existence, that large PVE segment aren't going to gravitate towards "another PVP game."  In my humble opinion, PVP should be, and probably will be for successful MMOs, a quality sideshow entertainment.

[tmp]

Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

There already is mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP. The weak point of that line of reasoning is, oddly enough they just don't seem to be doing very well, so why do you believe that's going to change? And i still don't see how AoC is proof of it somehow, given it doesn't even reach the "PvP is dominant feature" stage. Certainly it didn't seem dominant enough to even get fully implemented at launch.

[krazyk]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

That was a quick edit.  I guess the "Carebear Motherfuckers" aren't going extinct quite yet.

I look at PVP as it existed in UO, and I look at PVP as it exists in WoW, and it doesn't strike me as the PVE that is on its way out the door.  AoC and upcoming WAR may change this, but making a prediction just now would be premature.  We don't know if the games will survive, and we don't know how much the PVP will be watered down in order to survive.

That being said, PVP is here to stay.  Not because there is any significant market for PVPers, but because it's the smart move.  "Balance" issues not withstanding, PVP is just easier to cater to, because players are doing most of the work.  It's also dangerous, because as more and more games come into existence, that large PVE segment aren't going to gravitate towards "another PVP game."  In my humble opinion, PVP should be, and probably will be for successful MMOs, a quality sideshow entertainment.

Hardcore pvp might not be mainstream, but pvp itself probably has a larger audience than pve.

And honestly I don't see the need to incorporate pve into a pvp game. I knew one guy from WoW who loved leveling up a new alt to arena with, or do bgs with and he is the minority everyone else I know hated the pve grind (grinding new alts, and gear, and rep, and etc. in order to compete in pvp is why we all quit, seriously fuck that shit in a pvp game, which is why I won't touch AoC, or Warhammer). I also heard it said less than 5% of the player base in WoW does pve end game raids can you say the same for bgs and arenas? I don't know anyone who doesn't run bgs and play arenas.

Now the real problem here in making these comparisons between primarily pve games and primarily pvp games is we only have failed examples of pvp games to compare to WoW. Someday someone will make a pvp game as well thought out and polished as WoW and my prediction is it will make WoW and other pve games look niche in comparison. The first thing I would do as a developer of a pvp game is cut out the need for a pve grind. The dev resources used to make the pve game could be devoted to polishing the other parts of the game that matter to pvpers.

[krazyk]

Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

There already is mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP. The weak point of that line of reasoning is, oddly enough they just don't seem to be doing very well, so why do you believe that's going to change? And i still don't see how AoC is proof of it somehow, given it doesn't even reach the "PvP is dominant feature" stage. Certainly it didn't seem dominant enough to even get fully implemented at launch.

I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)

I want a game where my friends and I can jump in form a group and start pvping, or work toward a group/guild based objective. We don't wanna worry about Joe the guy who can't play as much so always get left behind in levels and quits because he can't do the fun shit with the rest of us. We don't wanna worry about Kevin the cheap ass who can't afford a decent PC so we're stuck playing games his machine can run. These are always the issues that keeps my friends from playing PC games and if one of us can't play none of us do. I might be an isolated case, but I doubt it. Most people play what their friends play.

[tmp]

I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)

Planetside?

[Surlyboi]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

Keep telling yourself that, sunshine.

[Tarami]

"Care to join a BG PuG" and "Care to join a raid group" aren't exactly comparable demographics.

Anyways. The reason why mainstream (or of mainstream production values) PvP-only games won't work is the same reason you can't start playing any online shooter that has been out for more than a year. You will be obliterated from day one, unless you can play match-made games (like, only against your friends) and that in turn kind of takes away the purpose of it being an MMO to begin with. PvE is a common ground where everyone can acheive something, even if they're tools at the game, as it has the challenge it's designed to have, not a level of challenge that's rising every day.

[sinij]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

Keep telling yourself that, sunshine.

I will enjoy writing lengthy posts trying to link behavioral tendencies of 'PvE minority' to antisocial maladaptive traits of individual players.

[Samwise]

EQ1 had duels and flagging,

Actually all EQ1 servers were full PK ready. I remember all the PK trolls before launch explaining to us useless clueless carebears that only 5 or 10% of the players would ever go non-PK and we would mostly be laughed at.

It almost sounds like you're speaking in the past tense.

[Surlyboi]

My guess is that popularity of AoC due to two things:

1) Promised PvP -lots of WoW first-timers maturing into PvPers and wanting more

You are such a fucking one trick pony.

At least I am consistent in my views while rest of you have to adjust them to account for what happening with the industry. Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

Prophecy: In 10 years *all* mainstream mmorpgs will support PvP and majority will have it as main attraction.

Keep telling yourself that, sunshine.

I will enjoy writing lengthy posts trying to link behavioral tendencies of 'PvE minority' to antisocial maladaptive traits of individual players.

And we will enjoy laughing at you. Oh wait, I already do.

[UnSub]

I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)

Planetside?

Fury?

[UnSub]

Just few years back lots of people here believed that there is no way any PvP will be ever included in any mainstream mmorpg, then that there is no way PvP will be dominant feature... in a few years you will be trying to explain how it is possible that there are mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP.

There already is mainstream mmorpgs that are all about PvP. The weak point of that line of reasoning is, oddly enough they just don't seem to be doing very well, so why do you believe that's going to change? And i still don't see how AoC is proof of it somehow, given it doesn't even reach the "PvP is dominant feature" stage. Certainly it didn't seem dominant enough to even get fully implemented at launch.

Right now, PvP is what you do when you've finished the PvE side of things. It's also pretty much a standard feature of modern MMOs because it gives players something to do long after the PvE content has been exhausted.

AoC is proof of very little right now. We'll have to wait and see how its PvP audience develops itself.

I'm sure pretty much every MMO with a combat system moving forward will have PvP implemented to some extent. But I also believe that PvP is the simplest way of providing player-made content; once more attention starts getting put into letting players create their own PvE content (of which, yes, 90% won't be worth experiencing, but 10% of 1000 different projects still can give you quality material to experience) we'll see a shift away from all players thinking the end-game somehow has circle around PvP.

(I am thinking about raids as end-game PvE content, but that's gated by the required player numbers. End-game PvE shouldn't suddenly require you've got 49 friends to be able to play it as the only option.)

[tmp]

Right now, PvP is what you do when you've finished the PvE side of things. It's also pretty much a standard feature of modern MMOs because it gives players something to do long after the PvE content has been exhausted.

Yup, though i wonder how large part of people who get done with the PvE part of game simply unsubscribe (occasionally checking back when there's new update) rather than join the PvP. There isn't much data to go by here... can only recall couple forum polls from LotRO boards where roughly half-2/3rd of participants reported they have no interest/don't play PvM at all. That's game-specific and forum based though, so really doesn't say much.

[Merusk]

(I am thinking about raids as end-game PvE content, but that's gated by the required player numbers. End-game PvE shouldn't suddenly require you've got 49 friends to be able to play it as the only option.)

The amusing part is, endgame PvE has started to diminish in required # of people over the years.  EQ had it's 100+ person raids, WoW had 40, then 25, and the next expansion will have 10-man versions of all the 25-man stuff.   Not to mention the badge gear and pvp gear you can do with smaller groups at your own pace as your ability allows.

PvP on the other hand keeps requiring larger groups of people.  From the small gank groups of UO, to the large groups needed to run a city in AoC or the fucking enormous corps and alliances needed to hold space in EVE.  Not to mention even being able to PLAY the game on a day-to-day basis is suicide solo on a "pvp" server.

Not only that, but to watch a hardcore PVPer toss around the term "Catass" while spending just as many, if not more, time defending a player-structure gathering resources for that structure... or prepping for combat is fucking hilarious.   

[UnSub]

PvP content is a bit more flexible on player numbers since they aren't always hardcoded - small PvP teams can meet, duels occur one-on-one, etc - while raids / endgame PvE often have fixed player requirements, be it 100 players or 10.

But I do take your point.

[Nerf]

Not to mention even being able to PLAY the game on a day-to-day basis is suicide solo on a "pvp" server.

I can only speak from personal experience here, but I've done largely solo play in lots of games on pvp servers, and I've gotten up to 55 in record speed with very little powerleveling almost entirely solo, and "suicidal" is the last word I'd use to describe it.  Maybe the RP-PVP server is different, and the other servers are just nonstop gankfests, but that certainly hasn't been the case thus far.

[Venkman]

Yea, so far our RP-PvP server in AoC has been pretty tame. I suspect it's because people are on their alts alongside the few newbs trickling in. I do like when I get jumped though. So far I've been able to escape, form a police force and come back for retribution. Not only is it still fun as hell so many years after doing the same in UO, now the group travels together to clean out the rest of the quests in a place. It really is immersive, the same sort of thing I sought in Eve but never had the patience to get. Prior to that was SB which was good fun in an ancient engine.

Anyway, this is old new again, in a damned refreshing way.

[Slayerik]

Yeah, its been fun. Me and Nerf running around attacking anyone on a horse (outta jealousy maybe?) in the Field of the Dead the other night, while still getting a ton of questing done was quite fun. PoM plus ToS is SToMP

Hahah, omg I came up with that myself.

Anyways, between KoS guilds and occasional assholes, there is plenty of fun to be had. My 'whack a guy with a mace and see if he fights back' techinique can produce great fun as well. PvP servers are full of win.

[KallDrexx]

I touched on this in my other post, but I will say for my friends and I we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game. There is also the technical requirements. My friends are cheap bastards and won't pay for an upgraded PC. I know it is anecdotal evidence, but maybe there are other pvpers who feel the same way. It all boils down to the fact nobody has made a game that caters strictly to pvpers, they always include bullshit pve grinds that have no bearing on the pvp game except to create a dichotomy of high level gankers and the people they prey on, not to mention the shitty class balance. Take that shit out of the game and put everyone on equal footing and implement other forms of progression (building cities and things like that are ok grinds in my book)

Planetside?

Fury?

Fury missed the gear grinding, the cheap computer comptability part, and the balance parts of his post, so doesn't count.  Plus it's design was fucked in a lot of other aspects.

[Lantyssa]

Fury missed the gear grinding, the cheap computer comptability part, and the balance parts of his post, so doesn't count.  Plus it's design was fucked in a lot of other aspects.

If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*

[cevik]

If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*

It's easy.

Think outside of the box.

[sinij]

Not to mention even being able to PLAY the game on a day-to-day basis is suicide solo on a "pvp" server.

I can only speak from personal experience here, but I've done largely solo play in lots of games on pvp servers, and I've gotten up to 55 in record speed with very little powerleveling almost entirely solo, and "suicidal" is the last word I'd use to describe it.  Maybe the RP-PVP server is different, and the other servers are just nonstop gankfests, but that certainly hasn't been the case thus far.

I have done it in UO, WoW PvP servers, SB and now AoC. It just takes some understanding of how/why you get ganked to avoid it and getting rid of "entitled' attitude that gets WUAs of the world repeatedly killed.

[Azazel]

ooh! a troll post calling WUA out. How new!

[Falconeer]

Fury missed the gear grinding, the cheap computer comptability part, and the balance parts of his post, so doesn't count.  Plus it's design was fucked in a lot of other aspects.

If only someone could get PvP done right it would be teh awesome! *lament*

Hey. Didn't we all agree that recent Shadowbane is the perfect PVP model and that is why AoC is timidly trying to copy it?

[schild]

Hey. Didn't we all agree that recent Shadowbane is the perfect PVP model and that is why AoC is timidly trying to copy it?

Lol. There is nothing the MMOG Genre has done that hasn't been done better outside of the MMOG genre. Shadowbane isn't even remotely near the best way for players to battle eachother, or even have large groups of people battle eachother. AoC won't ever do anything better than any other game outside of the genre ever has or ever will either.

Now, did Shadowbane have the best PVP within the MMOG genre? Who gives a flying fuck. The game was a broken piece of shit. The same goes for SWG and crafting. UO and uhmmm, I don't know, finding new ways to abuse the system. Planetside and large scale FPS battles. Etc, etc. We can pick the best of the genre and it's still a dismal failure. The only real success that's worth discussing is this:

WoW did "get $15 from millions of people" correctly. It's the best of the genre and all of gaming at that ('that' being "money for Porsche upgrades"). That's the exception. That's it. It's the only one.

[Venkman]

So you're off AoC then? 

[Numtini]

we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game.

Wouldn't this be an FPS?

[Slayerik]

Yeah, schild logic is sometimes mind boggling.

AoC won't ever do anything better than any other game outside of the genre ever has or ever will either.

This doesn't even make sense. Or are you saying that a 64 player FPS map will always beat MMO massive scale combat?


Why are you playing again? Cause it is shiny? Or the great PvE encounters the game promises?

[schild]

So you're off AoC then? 

Because Falconeer has blinders? Yea, no.

Yeah, schild logic is sometimes mind boggling.

Quote from: schild on Today at 03:28:36 AM
AoC won't ever do anything better than any other game outside of the genre ever has or ever will either.

This doesn't even make sense. Or are you saying that a 64 player FPS map will always beat MMO massive scale combat?

Why are you playing again? Cause it is shiny? Or the great PvE encounters the game promises?

For the forseeable future, yes. A 64 player FPS map will beat out massive scale combat. In terms of the amount of fun for Every Player involved, there's absolutely no question.

Why am I playing? I'm a sucker for crafting and city-building. And I highly suggest they fix that shit up right fast.

we don't want to do any level grinds, we don't want to do gear grinds, or any other bullshit like that to play the pvp part of the game.

Wouldn't this be an FPS?

I've always had the feeling that the vast majority of MMOG PVP-Types couldn't cut it in a real skill-based environment. They'd either break down emotionally or just simply not have the skill to compete on any level. One of those 2 is pretty much guaranteed to appear. Particularly obvious if you read the retard-speak in any PVP forum. Also, I'm 100% sure I'm right. Let's call it "Schild's Theorem of PVP Disorder." That said, it's the former (emotional) that is far more likely than the latter. Any catassing PVP-Type can easily put enough time into a game to compete skill-wise. But their brain just isn't cut out to be a good sport or even handle the environment of people who take the game seriously but not the competition.

[Slayerik]

No random encounters in FPSes. The varying degrees of fights:

single one on one fights

Random ganks, both sides calling in their friends for a nice rumble

Two lower guys try to take out higher level adversary

Group vrs Group warfare, being able to pick out correct targets and execute while protecting your own healers/glass cannons

Large scale 40 on 40 fights, its controlled chaos sometimes but unless you have been on a PVP server you wouldn't understand how cool they can be

A few hundred a side, Planetside fuckin' owned face. There is no non-MMO that can bring that to the table.



Claim MMO PVP as skill-less all you want, but it still does not make it true. FPS's are absolutely great to log in and play for a while, but rarely hold interest for me for long. CoD4 was excellent, but I'd rather just bust that out for our small LAN parties than play it every night. Anyways, to each is own I guess.

[Draegan]

I'm a PVP guy and i spek gud gramer.

I had no idea on your disdain and total hatred for anything associated with PVP-MMOs.  Stop oppressing us.

However, in reality, you can hate us all you want or claim total slack jaw status for everyone that enjoys that style of play but it won't change anything.  There is no way a FPS map can offer the same thing as a PVP MMO ever.  It's just that simple.  You can have your own opinion, and thats fine, but you yourself say that you hate PVP in MMOs or at least, non-controlled PVP, so you're opinion on whats best for PVP overall is somewhat biased.

[Numtini]

Does Conan have massive PVP? I thought it was 48 players only -- which I hear variously as 48x48 or 24x24.

[Lantyssa]

Some PvPers need to catass, too.  There will always be a demand for PvP in MMOs.

[schild]

so you're opinion on whats best for PVP overall is somewhat biased.

My opinion for what's best for PVPs is exactly right though. Quarantine all the PVPers to their own little dens of iniquity. Which companies do. And then do SEPERATE balance for them and let them stay in their little isolated world of whining and imba. It's the best for everyone. The problem is, every MMOG to date with a large PVP focus of any sort still has PVP players in the vast minority, and on top of that, make changes that effects people who don't even give a shit about PVP until they've maxed out. I'm all for sieges and such guys, don't misunderstand me, but PVP has it's place. And it's place is at the back of the bus where it can't disturb the majority.

Yes, that was a bad taste black joke. I also think PVPers shouldn't have a right to vote. There's a huge difference between folks who want to enjoy the game and the professional content and deal with PVP for the endgame and the types who want it busted out at the beginning prior to 10% of the leveling curve. Unfortunately, that difference is about 4,000 decibels on any forum.