Return of the Book Thread

[Sky]

In the middle of the series, starting with sections of book 5 and 6, he decided he didn't want to be a Fantasy writer anymore and switched to a more "literary" style where depressed nihilists whine and complain for hundreds of pages, and his philosphical musings started to eat up large portions of the book.

I think that's why I like it. Most fantasy writers are shit. Erikson is fun to read. I guess if you don't enjoy his growth as an author and just want MOER CONAN ERR KARSA, I can see why you'd stop liking him (as he got better at the craft).

I also disagree about the characterization, but I won't bother fighting a lost cause here.

[Paelos]

If by growth, you mean the books got ridiculously long as he expounded upon society at large, then I concur.

Book 1 - 666 pages - good length, nice read
Book 2 - 864 pages - little longer, still fine
Book 3 - 944 pages - uh oh, starting to get a tad preachy
Book 4 - 1024 pages  - 
Book 5 - 960 pages - ok reeling it in a little, I kept going
Book 6 - 1232 pages -  Why?
Book 7 - 1280 pages -  Oh God WHY?
Book 8 - 1280 pages - Yeah, I'm done.

by the way I looked it up, 9 & 10 are a combined 2200+ pages.

[Arrrgh]

If by growth, you mean the books got ridiculously long as he expounded upon society at large, then I concur.

Book 1 - 666 pages - good length, nice read
Book 2 - 864 pages - little longer, still fine
Book 3 - 944 pages - uh oh, starting to get a tad preachy
Book 4 - 1024 pages  - 
Book 5 - 960 pages - ok reeling it in a little, I kept going
Book 6 - 1232 pages -  Why?
Book 7 - 1280 pages -  Oh God WHY?
Book 8 - 1280 pages - Yeah, I'm done.

by the way I looked it up, 9 & 10 are a combined 2200+ pages.

I'm impressed he can crank out so many quality pages in 12 years, but then I enjoyed all of them.

The quality didn't do a WoT. The pace of writing didn't do a ASOIAF. It's a great series.

[Paelos]

Tell you what, I'm going to go home after work tonight, grab my copy of Reaper's Gale, turn to something random in the 600s, read ten pages, and see what I think now.

Maybe my perception will be better after a few years removed.

[Johny Cee]

In the middle of the series, starting with sections of book 5 and 6, he decided he didn't want to be a Fantasy writer anymore and switched to a more "literary" style where depressed nihilists whine and complain for hundreds of pages, and his philosphical musings started to eat up large portions of the book.

I think that's why I like it. Most fantasy writers are shit. Erikson is fun to read. I guess if you don't enjoy his growth as an author and just want MOER CONAN ERR KARSA, I can see why you'd stop liking him (as he got better at the craft).

I also disagree about the characterization, but I won't bother fighting a lost cause here.

Most of everything, including authors, is shit.  That being said, there are some wonderfully written fantasies and fantasy authors, especially if you stay away from modern fat fantasy.  I named three of them last page (Ford, Link, and Powers)... and Wolfe has a new book out that is alright if not fantastic.


The early books tended to be great tragic hero mythic stories, which he balanced out with a couple introspective viewpoints.  So you get Duiker/Coltaine and the Chain of Dogs on one hand, and you have self-absorbed Felisin in prison on the other;  or Paran/Whiskeyjack/Rake and the campaign against the Pannion Domin and you have the Maybe.

I didn't particularly like the change in format that shifted from a balanced focus with story/plot to the more introverted style where a few characters mope about bleakly for 700 pages before doing something.  I mean, Toll the Hounds or Reaper's Gale had the one group of people wander around in the mountains randomly fighting dudes and arguing until the climax....

His characterization for the main POVs is fine, and has become better...  his secondary and tertiary characters have become much more shallow, and all tend to have the same voice.  The "morose gallows humor wise-ass soldier with a funny name and a degree in philosophy" and the "flirty, lewd, oversexed whore/nympho who is obviously standing in as a comment on modern society's views of women" are the major culprits here, since they tend to show up everywhere and be virtually interchangeable.

That isn't to say that someone like Beak isn't a fun, quirky character.


Stop assuming that just because I don't find something to my tastes that I automatically think something is objectively "bad". 

[Rasix]

Erikson had so much potential, but got bogged down in the same crap all fantasy writers do when they get successful. I hated every character but Karsa by the time I got fed up with the series. I made it through Tolls the Hounds and that was my breaking point. I disagree with Sky that is dragged in some places. It dragged through 700 pages of crap in the middle, followed by about 100 pages at the end of actual story development and interesting reveals.

I was tired of putting up with that.

I'm really getting the impression that this might not be a series I want to commit to.  I just started the first book, which is okay so far, but really hasn't grabbed me.

The first book is a bit of a hodgepodge really.  Part Jordan, part Cook, part Erikson.  Book 2 is where he really starts to shine and the writing stops sounding so generic.

My issues with Reaper's Gale are well documented here and the series has come to a crashing halt for me. It'd take a reread to get back into series at this point.  Too many characters, the first part of the books are hard enough as is without struggling to remember what the hell happened.

[Quinton]

I finished up book 10 recently and overall, I enjoyed the ride.  The first few books remain among my favorites, and while I agree that the back half of the series could probably have been tightened up a bit, there were more than enough good moments to compensate for some of the areas where it plodded a bit. 

Deadhouse Gates, Memories of Ice, and Midnight Tides probably represent the best of Erikson to me, though I really did find plenty to enjoy throughout the whole series. 

[murdoc]

I just finished "Reaper's Gale" on my reread, so I got further than I did on the first attempt. The group of Silchas Ruin, Seren, Udinaas, Clip, and Fear almost made me quit again. There isn't a single scene they're in that I enjoyed other than when Silchas tried to fly to Letheras.

Personally, I like the books where the Malazan Marines are the important parts. I really enjoyed sections of Reaper's Gale, but I skimmed others.

[Paelos]

Just did what I promised. I opened Reaper's Gale again with a completely open mind, and read 10 random pages in the middle. I picked it on page 538 and went forward.


It very much encapsulated what I remember about Erikson that made me love and hate him. He has characters like Bugg and Tehol that are brilliantly portrayed, with smart dialogue and thought provoking commentary. Then, within the same span he can't seem to go 10 pages without referencing a crumbling society, broken pottery, and an Elder God questioning the very existence of humanity he's fucking with while he does something very minor.

[Sky]

I don't think that's in question. It's whether you like it or not. I do.

You don't so why bother? Lots of other books. Try the Black Company by Glen Cook. Ironwood raves about it.

[FatuousTwat]

Then, within the same span he can't seem to go 10 pages without referencing a crumbling society, broken pottery, and an Elder God questioning the very existence of humanity he's fucking with while he does something very minor.

Wasn't he an archaeologist?

Try the Black Company by Glen Cook. Ironwood raves about it.

We managed to not mention those books last page, NOW YOU HAVE RUINED IT! (I like the Black Company)

[Paelos]

Wasn't he an archaeologist?

He was. That doesn't excuse him referencing pottery, potsherds, or ruins every 10 pages. I'm a tax accountant. My writing doesn't reference deductions all the time.

[cironian]

I'm a tax accountant. My writing doesn't reference deductions all the time.

"As I wandered among those ruins, it reminded me how human society has always been deeply corrupt and broken. Just like Section 847, Subsection B, Paragraph 5 of the tax code as applied to yearly incomes above $60000."

[Paelos]

I'm a tax accountant. My writing doesn't reference deductions all the time.

"As I wandered among those ruins, it reminded me how human society has always been deeply corrupt and broken. Just like Section 847, Subsection B, Paragraph 5 of the tax code as applied to yearly incomes above $60000."

Ok you got a good chuckle out of that one. Nice show. 

[Stormwaltz]

Ok you got a good chuckle out of that one. Nice show. 

Yeah, me too. 

[Ironwood]

Reread the Baroque Cycle again and liked it better this time.

Hmmm.

[Furiously]

Maybe you fixed it....

[Abagadro]

Probably once you know the whole scope of the thing and where it ends up you can enjoy all the detail and side trips without wondering when they will get to the fireworks factory.

[Ironwood]

It's partly that and partly that he actually writes a LOT of little asides that only makes sense if you know what he's talking about.  Once you've read it once, you know what he's talking about and, actually, it seems clever, rather than obtuse.

[Morat20]

It's partly that and partly that he actually writes a LOT of little asides that only makes sense if you know what he's talking about.  Once you've read it once, you know what he's talking about and, actually, it seems clever, rather than obtuse.

Pretty much.

I started in on the 1632 or 33 books (Flint, Weber, and about 43 bazillion other people) using the Baen Free e-library. A nice casual read, if very much in the "wow, it's amazing what modern arms can do against people who don't have them" school of obvious thought.

Watching the shit hit the fan as everyone got ahold of copies of history books containing the next few centuries, had things not gone off the rails, was worth it though. Mostly to watch Richeliu write off all of Europe in order to grab America.

I'd really like to have seen a more thorough take on how this would affect determinist religions (like the Calvinists) -- it's in there, but not in depth -- or more with how the Vatican and the other warring sects of Chrisitanity grapple with the theological changes the next centuries bring. Maybe that's later, but I doubt it -- seems to be mostly a light take on the 30-years war that ramps up from 17th to 19th century tech very quickly. (The transplanted Americans realize very early on that they can't keep their 1990s-era tech, but they can use what they have while it lasts to build a 1900s-esque tech base. Telegraphs, steam engines, iron-clads, the like).

[Sky]

The Joel Rosenberg stuff that had D&D players put into their gaming world had a nice subplot where an engineering student was trying to jump-start to railroads. I wish he had done more in that vein, the books kind of wandered after the first few.

[Morat20]

The Joel Rosenberg stuff that had D&D players put into their gaming world had a nice subplot where an engineering student was trying to jump-start to railroads. I wish he had done more in that vein, the books kind of wandered after the first few.

Hmm. Cover reminds me of The Dragon and the George. Pity the author died. I rather enjoyed his Dragon Knight books.

[Bzalthek]

I've been listening to the audio books for Weber's Honor Harrington series.  They were a pleasant for the drive to school with Madeline Buzzard, through the first 10 books.  Cheap Sci-Fi with a bit of feel-good story going on, and then book 11 switches to some Allyson Johnson and I couldn't make it past the first chapter.  Such a horrible god damn narrator.  Looks like I need to find the actual booksm, because until then the series stopped at 10.

[Khaldun]

Re-reading Kara Swisher's There Must Be a Pony on the Time-Warner/AOL merger and the dot.com boom. Can't help but feel that we're right back in the middle of a lot of the same kind of thinking.

[Morat20]

Re-reading Kara Swisher's There Must Be a Pony on the Time-Warner/AOL merger and the dot.com boom. Can't help but feel that we're right back in the middle of a lot of the same kind of thinking.

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. According to Weber, his Eric Flint books jumped the timeline he had in mind and he had to sort of wrap shit up in a few books to set the stage for the stuff he's had brewing that he originally intended to be 20 years down the line.

I'd get that a heavy dose of salt, but there is the fact that he's playing out some earth history in space and his claimed original end to book 11 fits. The Flint stuff introduced Victor Cachet, most awesome Marty Stu in all the known universe. Quite tolerable, in my opinion, despite that. And since super-spy was on the case, it was decided that shit was learned decades before shit was supposed to be learned.

Which meant book 11 -- At All Costs -- more or less had to put paid to big war, and book 12 wraps up the rest of it, triggers the next confrontation, and ends on a bit of a "Well, the shit-kicking is about to start again".

Him and Flint both seem to LOVE one-sided battles. Like "I'm going to blow you the fuck away and you have no chance" battles, where only the most insanely good commander can even save a few units. The only saving grace he has for that is, at least in the Harrington books, he does dish out the ass-kickings to both sides.

All his stuff, to me, is beach-level reading. It's what I read when I want something light, distracting, and easy to put down if something comes up. Flint's more or less the same so far. And I feel a hell of a lot less lame reading that than Tom Clancy, who hasn't written a book worth reading since like 1990. Whenever 'Red Storm Rising' came out.

[MahrinSkel]

I think he likes writing about "Technological Surprise", which has only happened a handful of times in real history (at least on the game-changing level he writes in).  Most of the time war is purely about the jocks, but technological surprise is the geeks getting their day.

--Dave

[Khaldun]

 

[bhodi]

I've been listening to the audio books for Weber's Honor Harrington series.  They were a pleasant for the drive to school with Madeline Buzzard, through the first 10 books.  Cheap Sci-Fi with a bit of feel-good story going on, and then book 11 switches to some Allyson Johnson and I couldn't make it past the first chapter.  Such a horrible god damn narrator.  Looks like I need to find the actual booksm, because until then the series stopped at 10.

Weird. I have the first one read by Allyson Johnson, and the rest by Mary Kane (Canine?), including "At all costs". Mission of Honor isn't out in audiobook yet, AFAIK.

[Morat20]

I think he likes writing about "Technological Surprise", which has only happened a handful of times in real history (at least on the game-changing level he writes in).  Most of the time war is purely about the jocks, but technological surprise is the geeks getting their day.

--Dave

Yeah, pretty much. I do like that the putative enemy in his Harrington books -- the People's Republic -- manages to make do, despite the technological edge. There's a decent amount of 'quantity has a quality all of it's own' that he really puts teeth to, though the true massive leaps (space carriers, space aircraft, and the advent of the space-equivilant 'over the horizon' missiles) tend to sneer at quantity.

Then again, the most recent book had the shoe on the other foot entirely -- what I found most annoying with that was a
Oddly enough, out of all of it I think I rather like the Grayson's the best -- not for their "We support the main character 100% and have a strangely enlightened constitutional monarch who really is practically a dictator in some ways" but for their religion, the whole notion that life is God's test for an individual. It appeals to my Protestant roots. I'm curious where he got it, since it honestly seems to be a pro-scientific version of liberal Protestantism. (Which he grafted to a patriarchal and conservative culture).

[Bzalthek]

I've been listening to the audio books for Weber's Honor Harrington series.  They were a pleasant for the drive to school with Madeline Buzzard, through the first 10 books.  Cheap Sci-Fi with a bit of feel-good story going on, and then book 11 switches to some Allyson Johnson and I couldn't make it past the first chapter.  Such a horrible god damn narrator.  Looks like I need to find the actual booksm, because until then the series stopped at 10.

Weird. I have the first one read by Allyson Johnson, and the rest by Mary Kane (Canine?), including "At all costs". Mission of Honor isn't out in audiobook yet, AFAIK.

These are the old audiocassettes I found at a used bookstore. If there's a version of 'at all costs' without that hack Allyson I'll look into it!

[Khaldun]

I absolutely hate the Honor Harrington books. If you're going to do Napoleonic naval warfare, just do it. I think dressing it up with a lot of laser pew-pew and someone even more Mary Sue than Horatio Hornblower and then calling it "an original novel" is just fucking stupid. You could program a computer to spit out endless franchises with as much liveliness to their prose simply by taking existing historical narratives and keyword substituting "laser" and so on for every historical reference. "Laser Squadron Greycoats" commanded by their stalwart old aristocrat leader "General Roberta Li" fighting in their power-armor against the Unity forces on the planet of Geht-s-buurgg and so on.

[Ironwood]

Hornblower was much better when he was being attacked by Space Fish anyway...

[Morat20]

Hornblower was much better when he was being attacked by Space Fish anyway...

Everything is better if you add swords and spaceships. EVERYTHING.

[proudft]

I really liked the first bunch of Honor Harrington books.  Up to and including, say, the one with the prison planet.  After that the political digression ratio just kept rising and rising, and after I read Honor's War, I didn't like it enough to go further.   But it was a pretty good run.

Against all odds I am now on book 9 of Wheel of Time, Winter's Heart, which is also the last one I own.  As predicted, I liked books 2-4 well enough and then the decline began.  But, you know, there is enough stuff happening to keep me going, who knew?  Part of it is I think I only read the ones after Lord of Chaos once, and if not stellar, at least I don't remember what's happening. 

I may have to actually buy the remaining books.      Kindle or used bookstore, hmmmmm.....

[Ingmar]

Used bookstore, that way you can put them in the outhouse at your parents' shack when you're done with them.