Return of the Book Thread

[Ironwood]

Some of the books were good.

[Phildo]

Some of the books were good.

THIS is how you start a new page in a book thread!

[Endie]

Some of the books were good.

THIS is how you start a new page in a book thread!

...on the other hand, some were by R.A.Salvatore.

Balance itt.

[Murgos]

Finished Matter. Seriously meh.

Finally finished it.  It took me a while to pick back up again and then I powered through it this weekend (GF is out of town and I am 'staying out of trouble').

It is one of his slower paced books, which is saying something because Banks can write seemingly glacial plots at times as everything in the universe has to unfold just so.  It did pick up a bit in the 3rd quarter or so but then as he is moving forward and piling up speed he suddenly drops back into this tedious sort of plot exposition that kind of goes no where and then ends pretty predictably.

I did like the extra time he spent pondering religion, philosophy and governments place in the grand scheme of things but they certainly aren't new subjects for him.

The ending was also a bit of a let down, it didn't, well, jive.  You know?

[bhodi]

I've been burning through John Ringo's Legacy of the Aldenata series - basically, it's an 'aliens attack earth' military sci-fi kind of thing. The aliens are kind of like zerg, in that they attack en-masse with little support.

It's not bad; It's not the best thing ever, but I was in the mood for some military sci-fi and this fit the bill. One of the interesting things is earth fights a losing battle as the waves get larger and larger. By the 4th book, the aliens have pretty much exterminated all but parts of china, canada, and the US. There really is no happy ending, just a small reprieve before things get worse at the start of the next book.

I will say that he's got a gigantic hardon for artillery. And he put in some really gratuitous unnecessary mentions of sluggy freelance ("Hey look, it's Pete Abrams lost humor and wit!"), a webcomic that was funny about 5 years ago (admittedly, about when the book was released)

[stu]

The first line from A Hymn Before Battle:

Michael O'Neal was a junior associate web consultant with an Atlanta web-page design firm. What this meant in practice was that he worked eight to twelve hours a day with HTML, Java and Perl.

Now that's how you kick off an interplanetary war series! I decided to do some reading up on the guy's work and I may pick up some of the paperbacks. At the very least, I'm sure they're better than the Halo books.

[Ironwood]

Some of the books were good.

THIS is how you start a new page in a book thread!

Heh.  For those that can't be bothered scrolling back, I meant some of the old Star Trek EU books were good.

The ones that weren't about fucking vampires anyway.

[Johny Cee]

Finished Matter. Seriously meh.

Finally finished it.  It took me a while to pick back up again and then I powered through it this weekend (GF is out of town and I am 'staying out of trouble').

It is one of his slower paced books, which is saying something because Banks can write seemingly glacial plots at times as everything in the universe has to unfold just so.  It did pick up a bit in the 3rd quarter or so but then as he is moving forward and piling up speed he suddenly drops back into this tedious sort of plot exposition that kind of goes no where and then ends pretty predictably.

I did like the extra time he spent pondering religion, philosophy and governments place in the grand scheme of things but they certainly aren't new subjects for him.

The ending was also a bit of a let down, it didn't, well, jive.  You know?

I've read a bit of Banks recently since he seems to have quite a few books in trade paperback reprint. 

Read:  State of the Art,  Consider Phlebus
Started: Player of Games

Overall, it gets a large "meh" from me.  I have a huge problem with the whole "no scarcity" body of current scifi,  mostly because it makes no sense, and the books seem to carry around a huge amount of baggage from the author's personal socio-political leanings. 

I mostly haven't found the story and plot to be that gripping.


I do think that the Culture is interesting when compared to John C. Wright's "The Golden Age" trilogy, which is the utopian anarchist version of the communitarian Culture. 

[Murgos]

Excession is probably the most accessible of the Culture books.  I would recommend trying that one.

State of the Art is, if I think I recall, a bunch of early short stories that don't reflect much of the later work Banks has done all that well and Consider Phlebas is the first Culture novel so things again aren't quite as well conceived as they could be.  I haven't read Player of Games so can't comment on it.

[Johny Cee]

Excession is probably the most accessible of the Culture books.  I would recommend trying that one.

State of the Art is, if I think I recall, a bunch of early short stories that don't reflect much of the later work Banks has done all that well and Consider Phlebas is the first Culture novel so things again aren't quite as well conceived as they could be.  I haven't read Player of Games so can't comment on it.

Good to know.

A large problem with me, as well, is too much Glen Cook.  Cook writes all his characters in such a no-nonsense, amoral, and massively realistic manner that kills some kinds of story-telling.

Minor spoilage:


If Cook had written Consider Phlebas,  than the whole climax would have been fucking shot.  Take prisoners?  Fuck that shit.  He would have had some fairly sympathetic character murder those assholes off-stage in about 3 seconds.  Not dragged around the psychotic alien that had almost successful escaped once already for no fucking purpose.

If the intention was to play up the moral/ethical angle, it was really poorly done considering the way things worked out.

Also, the fight scenes were shit.  If you aren't going to write a decent fight scene, just have your character shiv the baddie from behind and call it a day rather than waste time in a bizarre fight sequence.


I can see that there are some good seeds for story-telling,  like the essentially gilded cage metaphor of the Culture,  but those aspects of the plot were mostly left to the side throughout the stories,  or were poorly served by the substance of the plot.

[Morat20]

I can see that there are some good seeds for story-telling,  like the essentially gilded cage metaphor of the Culture,  but those aspects of the plot were mostly left to the side throughout the stories,  or were poorly served by the substance of the plot.

Try Use of Weapons for more on the gilded cage thing, but he uses that as simply a fact of Culture life. It's not "the point", just "how it is".

But Bank's entire schtick is....things don't work out. He drug around that SC agent because he couldn't bring himself to kill her (even though she damn well nearly got him killed), and in the end -- that fucked him. But it wasn't like the Culture (well, the Mind in question) wasn't rather greatful for his conscience.

If you want points....Consider Phlebas probably has the least of one. It's a war story, the protagonist is on the wrong side of a religious war and doesn't even believe in the religion in question, and the entire plot is tiny part of a galaxy-sized clusterfuck in progress.

Excession, Inversions, and Look to Windward (and even Matter) don't have points, so much as they offer views on the Culture from outside perspective. Use of Weapons is much the same, now that I think about it. Fuck, so's Consider Phlebas.

Hell, thinking about it, most of his Culture novels are about the clash between what the Culture thinks of itself ("The good guys") and how everyone else views them -- and the sorts of nasty things the Culture has to do to let the bulk of it's society even exist.

A nasty war that the Culture won mostly because they don't really have a lot of scruples when it comes to life or death (they're pragmatic, even if they have to hide some of it in the shadows). Invesions shows they're utter meddlers, determined to make the galaxy look a lot like them. Excession shows they're not as grown-up and unified as they'd like to think. Look to Windward shows you don't fuck with them, but they're still paying the price for mistakes centuries prior. Use of Weapons and Player of Games shows they'll use anyone, even their own citizens, to "do what's right".

I'd say Banks has a lot of things to say about Imperial-style meddling -- but then he's Scottish, so there's a bit of a background there.

As for his non-Culture stuff -- The Bridge and The Wasp Factory are the only ones I've read, and "dark" doesn't begin to describe them.

[Johny Cee]

Morat:

I just think thematically that Banks is up and down and all over the place,  at least from what I've read so far.  Authors do tend to grow and mature,  so mea culpa if he refines his work later on.


It seemed that, for a while in Consider Phlebus, Banks was putting forward the proposition that both sides were equally "bad",  but that the Culture philosophy was more disadvantageous to sentient organic life.  That the Changer was basically fighting on the least bad of two sides.

This gets muddled by the Idrians (sp?) on the Planet of the Dead being basically psycho-killers,  and the flashback passage to what can only be Horza having his memory/personality altered by the Idrian spymaster.*  Combined with the Culture operative largely playing quiescent throughout the book,  only coming in when Horza had pretty much fucked things up royally, and generally being pretty sympathetic...  yah.

The progeny theme/motivation is poorly developed and works in fits and jumps, some of which don't make much sense.

I just felt that, thematically, Banks jumped and switched around too much and thereby muddled his narrative.  And there wasn't enough tieing events together to really sell some kind of theme on individual falability (fuck, I can't spell and I'm lazy). 

Again,  apologies if I'm picking on an author's early work.  Please,  if I'm being obtuse, enlighten me....  I may well have interpreted something incorrectly.


* That passage doesn't really fit any other way, unfortunately, due to the Culture viewpoints and actions we get in the novel and the afterword.  It could have been left more ambiguous,  such that we could interpret it as an indication that either the Idrians or the Culture (pretending to be the Idrians) was fucking with Horza's head to manufacture an agent that could operate on the Planet of the Dead,  and better fit with the theme of the ambiguity of "good".

[Morat20]

Nah, Banks is pretty muddled. :) I don't even recall the flashback passage you're mentioning, and as for the Idrians -- from what I remember, it's a religious war, those were front line soldiers, and not many of them had survived to that point. They were going to be pretty mission-focused.

But the Culture in that was.....it wasn't even a player, you know? They weren't really feeling the war -- it was being born by SC and by the Minds. The rest of the Culture was off enjoying it's own existance. I think that general contradiction -- the massive, materialistic Culture that's mostly totally ignorant (by choice!) of what price is paid for their lifestyle, is a reoccurant theme in the Culture novels.

For the most part, though, Banks has pretty much claimed that his driving notion in writing that one was a reaction to the lone hero thing in Sci-Fi. In a giant war, one person doesn't mean shit, no matter how awesome they are. All that...unlikliness, all that effort, all that death, and the only difference it made was the survival of one Mind out of god knows how many millions in the Culture.

[Phildo]

I haven't been following the thread too closely these last few months, has anyone read and enjoyed William Gibson's newest book?

[Viin]

Spook Country? Yah I liked it.

Not as good as some of his previous, but still interesting though quick read. (It's been 6 months or so since I read it, but I don't remember it being bad!)

[Draegan]

I'm currently reading House of Chains in the Malazan series.  Best fantasy series I've read in a long long time.

[WayAbvPar]

I haven't been following the thread too closely these last few months, has anyone read and enjoyed William Gibson's newest book?

I am waiting on the paperback. Is it out yet?

I like his newer stuff, but I would like to see him reimagine the future now that his original future has become reality in many ways. More dystopian cyberpunk kthx.

[HaemishM]

I just got finished with the first in the Malazan series by Erikson. That was a fantastic start. Over 600 pages and never felt at once plodding or unnecessarily padded.

Started on a bit of non-fiction candy, The Cyberthief and the Samurai by Jeff Goddell, about the final capture of Kevin Mitnick.

[Phildo]

Yeah, the paperback is out!

[murdoc]

I just got finished with the first in the Malazan series by Erikson. That was a fantastic start. Over 600 pages and never felt at once plodding or unnecessarily padded.

It gets even better imo. Oh, it gets better.

Only thing that I find, now on 'Reaper's Gale', is that I really want the focus back on the Malazans. I'm just starting Reaper's, and according to the list of characters in the front, it's chock full 'o Malazans, so I'll be patient.

[Draegan]

You really can't appreciate the Malazan series until the 3rd book Memories of Ice and the really the 4th book House of Chains.  Oooooh it's sooooo sweeeeett.. *homer simpson drool*

[Lt.Dan]

I just started reading Magician again.  For the fourth time :P

[Murgos]

You really can't appreciate the Malazan series until the 3rd book Memories of Ice and the really the 4th book House of Chains.  Oooooh it's sooooo sweeeeett.. *homer simpson drool*

Save yourself while you still can.  It's a great series right up until the undead-armor plated-sword armed (the arms are swords)- Archmage - Velociraptors/Tyrannosaurs.

That was kind of unforgivable.

[Rasix]

Completely offset by the army of 200,000 corpse-raping cannibals assaulting a city.  The stupid of the super advanced lizard people, who are also awesome at killing, has been somewhat contained since then.

[Arrrgh]

I wonder if his character has a malazan name.

As for a videogame, well, I'm not into the console stuff. Computers preferred. Age of Conan is proving fun to play; but again, I have ambitious notions about how a Malazan rpg would work best.

http://fantasybookcritic.blogspot.com/2008/06/interview-with-steven-erikson.html

[Draegan]

You really can't appreciate the Malazan series until the 3rd book Memories of Ice and the really the 4th book House of Chains.  Oooooh it's sooooo sweeeeett.. *homer simpson drool*

Save yourself while you still can.  It's a great series right up until the undead-armor plated-sword armed (the arms are swords)- Archmage - Velociraptors/Tyrannosaurs.

That was kind of unforgivable.

I read that book already.  I really didn't have a problem with those things really.

[Draegan]

I wonder if his character has a malazan name.

As for a videogame, well, I'm not into the console stuff. Computers preferred. Age of Conan is proving fun to play; but again, I have ambitious notions about how a Malazan rpg would work best.

http://fantasybookcritic.blogspot.com/2008/06/interview-with-steven-erikson.html

I've seen a "Dancer" in game.  Guess what class.

[Lt.Dan]

You really can't appreciate the Malazan series until the 3rd book Memories of Ice and the really the 4th book House of Chains.  Oooooh it's sooooo sweeeeett.. *homer simpson drool*

Save yourself while you still can.  It's a great series right up until the undead-armor plated-sword armed (the arms are swords)- Archmage - Velociraptors/Tyrannosaurs.

That was kind of unforgivable.

I read that book already.  I really didn't have a problem with those things really.

If you think of them purely as a mcguffin to show how cool and powerful the "good" guys are then you'll be A-OK.  After all what's a climax with seemingly impossible enemies.

[FatuousTwat]

Has anyone read "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss? Pretty damn good... I ordered the second one in the series from the Library, 5 people are ahead of me :(.

[Morfiend]

I just got finished with the first in the Malazan series by Erikson. That was a fantastic start. Over 600 pages and never felt at once plodding or unnecessarily padded.

It gets even better imo. Oh, it gets better.

Only thing that I find, now on 'Reaper's Gale', is that I really want the focus back on the Malazans. I'm just starting Reaper's, and according to the list of characters in the front, it's chock full 'o Malazans, so I'll be patient.

Can some one list the first couple of these? Finding the right one to start with can some times be hard on Amazon.

I am currently reading Devils Cape, its not horrible. Long ass set up the story intro, like 100 pages.

I recently finished the newest Dark War book by Ranyond E. Feist. As most of his recent books it was a good read, but nothing like Magician.

I ended up enjoying Lonely Werewolf Girl, a lot, so I decided to pick up one of his earlier books The Good Fairies of New York, and I couldnt do it. I had to put it down after about 80 pages or so. It was like it had all the bad of Lonely Werewolf Girl and none of the good.

[Rasix]

Can some one list the first couple of these? Finding the right one to start with can some times be hard on Amazon.

# Gardens of the Moon (1999)
# Deadhouse Gates (2000)
# Memories of Ice (2001)
# House of Chains (2002)
# Midnight Tides (2004)
# The Bonehunters (2006)
# Reaper's Gale (2007)

Go in order.  You technically can jump in at Gardens, Memories of Ice or Midnight Tides, but I don't suggest it.  First off, his writing in Gardens is a bit rough.  He's having problems at this point deciding how to effectively rip off his peers.  His writing drammatically improves as the series progresses and everything starts to sound a bit more like his own.  Secondly, he makes some subtle character changes that may be a bit confusing if you start at 2.  Plus, 2 gives you backstory for some events in 1,  and I believe there are parts of 5 that are a little clearer with knowledge of the entire series.

I'm reading Reaper's right now.  I'm probably about 1/3 to 1/2 through.  I really fucking despise the Letherii.

[Johny Cee]

Has anyone read "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss? Pretty damn good... I ordered the second one in the series from the Library, 5 people are ahead of me :(.

Just reread The Name of the Wind.  It's my pick for best fantasy novel last year.  Real easy reading, interesting characters, and a great plot.

[Johny Cee]

Can some one list the first couple of these? Finding the right one to start with can some times be hard on Amazon.

# Gardens of the Moon (1999)
# Deadhouse Gates (2000)
# Memories of Ice (2001)
# House of Chains (2002)
# Midnight Tides (2004)
# The Bonehunters (2006)
# Reaper's Gale (2007)

Go in order.  You technically can jump in at Gardens, Memories of Ice or Midnight Tides, but I don't suggest it.  First off, his writing in Gardens is a bit rough.  He's having problems at this point deciding how to effectively rip off his peers.  His writing drammatically improves as the series progresses and everything starts to sound a bit more like his own.  Secondly, he makes some subtle character changes that may be a bit confusing if you start at 2.  Plus, 2 gives you backstory for some events in 1,  and I believe there are parts of 5 that are a little clearer with knowledge of the entire series.

I'm reading Reaper's right now.  I'm probably about 1/3 to 1/2 through.  I really fucking despise the Letherii.

Toll the Hounds (book 8) is set for release in the UK for July 1,  and in the US on September 1.


For the bolded part:  The writing in Gardens is pretty rough in some parts.  It pretty obviously is one part Tolkien/Jordan epic, one part Glen Cook.  Right down to blatantly stealing the character of Kruppe from Cook's "Dread Empire" books.

[FatuousTwat]

I've read up through Bonehunters, haven't picked up Reapers Gale yet.

Speaking of Cook, should I bother finishing The Black Company? I'm on book 8 (Water Sleeps) I think, and it keeps getting worse... He should have stopped at The White Rose.

[Johny Cee]

I've read up through Bonehunters, haven't picked up Reapers Gale yet.

Speaking of Cook, should I bother finishing The Black Company? I'm on book 8 (Water Sleeps) I think, and it keeps getting worse... He should have stopped at The White Rose.

I'm going to say this is a personal preference issue.

I feel that Bleak Seasons and Water Sleeps are both as strong as earlier books,  and I actually really like She is the Darkness.  I liked the change in narrators, though, and I can understand how the change in Croaker's portrayal from closet idealist/romantic to master realist could be off-putting.

I really liked Sleepy as a narrator, though.  The dichotomy of a devoutly religious but rational/realist character was interesting, and harks back to the primary theme of the original trilogy of realism versus idealism.

Soldiers Live is the anticlimax tying up of the series,  and thus incredibly depressing.